Does the Camp Lejeune death show we need to crack down on firearm safety?

2014-10-09T10:05:29-04:00

Yesterday, Marine Lance Cpl. Brandon Little was sentenced to two years behind bars for inadvertently shooting and killing a fellow Marine outside the Camp Lejeune main gate back in April. Little’s rank and pay were also reduced to E-1, and he will receive a dishonorable discharge.

Little said he had been absent-mindedly flicking the safety switch on his M4 service rifle from “safe” to “semi” while directing traffic at the end of a 12-hour shift. When he returned to the gate house he was about to unload his weapon, but didn’t check to make sure the safety was on. He pulled back the charging handle and accidentally chambered a round. When that happened, he stood up to try to correct it, but pulled the trigger in the process, shooting Lance Cpl. Mark Boterf who was in front of him.

The lead attorney for the government argued Little should get a five-year sentence with forfeiture of all pay and rank and a dishonorable discharge for violating all four of the Marines’ cardinal firearms safety rules. Would a tougher sentence have sent a more powerful message for all Marines and service members?

On the other hand, Little’s defense pointed out he had taken full responsibility for his actions and stressed he will endure a lifetime of guilt and torment for what happened. Since this is an isolated incident, should Little’s punishment be left at that?

This tragic case certainly brings attention to the importance of weapon safety and proper procedures. The Marine’s death was an accident, but it could have easily been prevented had Little not been messing around with his gun. Are some service members becoming too comfortable with carrying such powerful weapons that they forget safety measures?

What can be done to prevent these tragedies from happening? What are some mistakes you’ve seen fellow service members make with their firearms that go against proper safety measures?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-10-09T10:07:58-04:00

I haven't seen anything like this, but it does go to show, that even though we are trained over and over again, we are still human and still make mistakes, albeit, a grave mistake in this case. There is no excuse for what happened and I honestly do think that his punishment should have been more severe, we are taught from Day 1 of BCT, at least in the Army, how to handle a firearm, and to always keep your finger off of the trigger. PERIOD.

Response by GySgt George Vukovich made Oct 9 at 2014 10:15 AM

2014-10-09T10:15:55-04:00

My thoughts are very similar to Sgt Maxwell, from Camp Red Cloud. This situation could have been avoided, no doubt. It's sad, it shows accidents do happen, but it does not take away from basic weapons handling procedures. There are other discussion points which could be addressed, as well...but I will not open the 'box' on this. Ultimately one of our Marines died and another will have to live with this pain for the rest of his days. Tragic all around!

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Oct 9 at 2014 10:18 AM

2014-10-09T10:18:35-04:00

I think the system needs to quit making examples of people. Was he wrong in screwing with his weapon - absolutely. Now he gets to live with knowing he kills his fellow Marine because he was being a dumbass. Should the punishment have been more severe...No amount of jail time, monetary fine, or classification of discharge will outweigh the prison that Marine will have himself in for the rest of his life.

Instead, just like our politicians, the military likes to capitalize on tragedy and not let a single one go to waste. How about instead of roaring loudly over this man's poor judgement after a 12 hour shift, we focus simply on better training, reinforcing standards and the fallen Marine's family? Just a thought...

Speaking of 12 hour shift - why was he on a 12 hour shift? Where was the SOG? Where was someone checking that Marine? Just wondering...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 10:22 AM

2014-10-09T10:22:14-04:00

The real tragedy is that "accidents" (including negligence without malice or forethought) cannot be eliminated altogether.

The first (and most major) indicator here was the alternating function (Safe-to-Semi-to-Safe) due to boredom.

Leaders must understand that it is the -small stuff- that leads to big stuff. This is why we address uniform standards and hold inspections. Diligence must be practiced both on AND off-duty, and is nothing to ever be assumed.

The second issue here, which is one we can take as a learning example, is that this LCpl may have taken full responsibility, but there is nothing he can say or do, that will undo what happened.

As leaders we must remind our Soldiers that they have the power to make an irreversible decision at any time.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 10:22 AM

2014-10-09T10:22:37-04:00

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member pretty well summed it up. Regardless of how tormented this young man will be for the rest of his life, he knew better, he chose to ignore gun safety rules and training! He should have gotten the max punishment allowed.

Bottom line is that at some point in time most of us have been guilty of letting our guard down and not paying 100% attention when handling fire arms. Unfortunately for some, the more experience we have the more lax some become.

I have a very close friend, retired MSG (Special Forces), who only two weeks ago, shot off his index finger on left hand by not paying attention to what he was doing. He ejected the magaizine out of his pistol, however forgot to eject the round out of the chamber and "bam" off to the ER and emergency surgery...lost the entire index finger. This happened in his "manroom" in his home. His wife was home and it could have gotten her as well! NO EXCUSE...NO FORGIVENESS!

There is no forgiveness for failures of this nature, for the harm we do to others and at times to ourself. At least not in my opinion! I agree completely with SGT Maxwell.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 12:06 PM

2014-10-09T12:06:26-04:00

Rule number one, ALWAYS Keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
But I think we all know that.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Oct 9 at 2014 12:39 PM

2014-10-09T12:39:32-04:00

The story he concocted sounds a bit fake. First why would he chamber a round or pull on the charging handle as though he didn't know what would happen? The story just sounds too unbelievable to be plausible even for the dumbest of Marines (believe me there are some that you wonder how they actually made it through MCRD, MCT, MOS school, and then to a unit). Just feels to me that he had competent legal counsel and concocted this story to save him from worse charges.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 12:47 PM

2014-10-09T12:47:53-04:00

When I was active duty as an MP, we had a dispatcher discharge a firearm in side dispatch. It was a night shift and about 2 in the morning. This LCpl was pulling his service Baretta out of the holster flipping it on his fingers and shoving it back in the holster. He did this a few times, not realizing that at some point a round was chambered by the friction of the holster. Next time he brought the pistol out and started spinning it "BANG" right through the floor of dispatch. Subsequently, dispatchers were relieved of their obligation to maintain a firearm while doing dispatch duties and this LCpl was given a write-up (page 11, I think)

Here was my take on that situation. I think that the focus was in the wrong direction here. This LCpl was bored and forget some primary safety concerns, same as the LCpl in the story. Boredom is a dangerous thing when coupled with young people and firearms. I think punishing not only the perpetrator but all others who did not do something wrong is an inappropriate knee-jerk reaction. I think consistent refresher training, with appropriate information regarding rules of deadly force as well as outcomes for mis-use of deadly force were warranted. As well, the structure of the shift which led to the incident should have been reviewed. MP's on watch were rotated from one post to another throughout the shift so that no on person is left in a location for longer than I think it was 4 hours. But dispatchers did not get rotated. We concentrate too much energy on the discipline, which is necessary, but not enough attention on the root cause analysis and inevitable change.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 9 at 2014 12:55 PM

2014-10-09T12:55:33-04:00

The harsh truth is that nothing can be done to prevent them. The best we can do is to reduce the frequency.

"Getting tough" on gun safety isn't any more likely to eliminate weapon-related accidents and oversights any more than it has eliminated DUIs.

That said, I think this incident does say something about post-war training standards and leadership at the junior NCO level. Who neglected to drill basic military habits into this young Marine? How could his muscle memory skip extracting the magazine before operating the bolt? How many other skills which are learned primarily through boring, repetitive drills under the watchful and unwavering eye of an NCO have been similarly neglected?

Response by LCpl Rick Ponton made Oct 9 at 2014 1:53 PM

2014-10-09T13:53:31-04:00

NO!!! WE NEED TO DO MORE ABOUT THE MENTALY ILL AND UNGODLY AND THE REASON THESE THINGS HAPPEN IS A LACK OF GOD IN THE USA

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Oct 9 at 2014 2:21 PM

2014-10-09T14:21:49-04:00

1. One must violate all 5 safety rules to hurt someone with a Negligent Discharge (ND). 2. If you live and work with guns for long periods you will likely have an ND, reducing harm requires compliance with the rules and supervision. 3. The question posed by rallypoint 'do we need to crack down?' Again poses a request for assessment with insufficient data. Are ND incidents rising, falling, or staying the same?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-10-09T18:25:29-04:00

I'm assuming his chain of command was burned at the stake at well. I feel for this Marine and his family.

Response by CW3 Amel Smith made Oct 9 at 2014 6:41 PM

2014-10-09T18:41:13-04:00

I think what happened was tragic, a mother and father will never see their son. But I think in looking at this strictly from an experience standpoint, the reality is that accidents do happen, misfires always happen when soldier/marines/airmen/seamen are given guns and bullets. While we (especially leaders) all tend to jump on the bandwagon and shout how much training we get with guns and bullets, the reality is we do not get as much as we think, when we really look at it. Yes we go thru basic training and we always have a weapon, but seldom do we have bullets. We get bullets when we go to the range, but that is under very strict and controlled circumstances, and we have 10 guys watching us and telling us what to do. The next time we see bullets again is the annual firing range, again under strict and controlled circumstances. SO where is all this training with real guns and real bullets? Yes when we get deployed, but I am not sure that is a good example when I was assigned from the 82nd to Pan Mun Jom, where we were issued guns and bullets. Daily we went north, we loaded our bullets, we came back to Camp and we unloaded our bullets. We had accidents all the time. In fact one of our SP4s shot a troop in the leg, he took out his pistol, slid the slide back, forgot to take the magazine out and standing in line waiting for the firing barrel shot the guy in front of him. It was an accident- stupid yes, but an accident. We had a troop clearing his weapon shot the dashboard of a jeep, in the JSA secure zone, in front of the north koreans. We had accidental misfires at Checkpoint 1, the guard house, checkpoint 5. It was very common and my undertanding it is common today. I know alot has changed in the military and the last 10 years we have had troops in combat zones for a long time, however in 2011 it was stated that since the beginning of the U.S. operation in Iraq, more than 90 U.S. military personnel have been killed there by negligent weapons discharges. These are just those that actually killed someone, god know how many actual accidental discharges happen. IN 2005 when I was in Iraq I saw at least 4 in just one week at the Palace. http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/13/negligent_discharges_one_subject_the_military_really_doesnt_like_to_talk_about
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131111/CAREERS03/311110031/Documents-Colonel-relieved-negligent-discharge-didn-t-know-gun-loaded
It is clear that there is a lack of training. Rather than focusing on the individual and what and how to punish them, we should be looking at the true problem. Sending this young marine to jail, will not bring the dead soldier back, it will not stop the next accident, it only means another soldier will not be free to see his family, his life is ruined and the fact that he volunteered to defend this nation, knowing we are at war will be lost. Lets look at the problem, analyze the truth of how much training any soldier gets, from infantry to cook, then fix the problem. Soldiers should be given guns every day, they should get blanks every day and this will train them that every gun is always loaded, all the time. Treat it as such. Just my two cents.

Negligent discharges: One subject the military really doesn’t like to talk about

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Oct 9 at 2014 6:56 PM

2014-10-09T18:56:05-04:00

I think we have so many accidental automobile deaths each year, so are we going to start sentencing soldiers to time behind bars for those accidents? Is anyone surprised a Lance Cpl...private...made a mistake? It is just tragic that outcome of the mistake?

I remember Sergeant getting a flash burn on his face in Light Leaders because he was resting his head on the barrel of an M-60 in the back of a Deuce and a Half...it went over a bump and with enough force to fire the chambered blank. The great part about this story is that it was a blank, his eyes were closed, and he did it to himself.

Response by PO2 Michael Berry made Oct 9 at 2014 7:44 PM

2014-10-09T19:44:57-04:00

That is just plain irresponsible.

Response by SPC Fred Lytge made Oct 9 at 2014 10:06 PM

2014-10-09T22:06:30-04:00

I don't know a whole lot on the story , but...I do know that with training safety comes naturally...

Response by MSG Karl Arrington made Oct 9 at 2014 10:11 PM

2014-10-09T22:11:03-04:00

No, we train constantly on firearm safety. You can train everyone until we're dreaming about it, but there's always one that will make that mistake. His punishment was inline with what I've seen in the civilian world and I think that in addition to the loss of a serviceman, it will serve as a reminder to follow firearm safety rules.

Response by Sgt Jennifer Mohler made Oct 9 at 2014 10:31 PM

2014-10-09T22:31:38-04:00

What about directing traffic for 12 hours? Whoever thought that was a good idea? Just sayin' there is ample blame to be had here.

I agree with the majority of other comments and won't repeat.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Oct 9 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-10-09T22:38:28-04:00

Ok, no more loaded "clips" for the youngins.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 12:37 AM

2014-10-10T00:37:19-04:00

The real problem is muscle memory in times of sleep deprivation. He was coming off a 12 hour shift on the gates. An hour before that he was probably in guard mount, hour before that conducting personal hygiene and eating, hour before that PT, so on and so forth... "What do you do at the clearing barrel?" This guy was either under training on basic understanding of how the weapon functions "not being comfortable enough", extremely fatigued or a combination of both... I've seen extremely seasoned highly trained and proficient Warriors with complete understanding of their assigned weapon under sleep deprivation just continue to rack rounds out until it finally clicked that they didn't take the magazine out and while racking the charging handle back, not looking at and in the chamber... Even in you skip the safety step and properly follow the the rest of the steps, your good to go without negligently discharging the weapon. My point is understanding the assigned weapons and practicing creates real muscle memory that ultimately will save your butt in stressful times...

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 6:14 AM

2014-10-10T06:14:18-04:00

Regardless of the situation, he should have:

1. Known to maintain his weapon pointed in a safe direction...always

2. Not have had ammo once his shift was over. No turn in? Why was he allowed to take his weapon and ammo home? We have much stricter guidelines in the Army.

3. Not have pulled the trigger while at home. Get off your shift, clear your weapon, drop the magazine, and secure your weapon and ammo.

We could go back and forth all day long and place blame in every direction. It was a failure at all levels and a Marine lost his life in the process.

God rest his soul...

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Oct 10 at 2014 9:52 AM

2014-10-10T09:52:24-04:00

While this incident had the worst possible outcome, it's also a very rare and isolated situation. These kinds of negligent discharges are extremely rare outside of the clearing barrel scenario. The individual involved was punished, end of story. There are going to be some death by power point stand downs in everyone's future, but that's about all you can do.

I agree with some of the above who asked about supervision. The longer the shift, the greater the need for more supervision because the troops get bored and do stupid shit.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 16 at 2014 1:31 PM

2014-10-16T13:31:51-04:00

In this case, it seems like it was pure stupidity and letting one's discipline get lax. Even in combat zones we've had SMs get killed due to this kind of complacency.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 16 at 2014 5:46 PM

2014-10-16T17:46:32-04:00

RallyPoint Team , I worked in military units where we carried firearms fully loaded with rounds chambered. We had no accidents during my tenure. Safety was stressed, stressed, trained, stressed again, and then trained again. As a civilian law enforcement officer I was fond of the term negligent discharge as opposed to accidental discharge as I am convinced a weapon system will not, typically, fire itself without a finger on the trigger and inside the trigger guard. This is negligent. A more harsh punishment should have been provided. This young Marine was careless and a shooting occured as a direct result. Cause: carelessness; Result: Death of another Marine; Punishment: Maximum.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-10-16T17:48:32-04:00

The last couple of shootings I have seen involving service members have been from negligence plain and simple. You can train someone all you want, but in the end that service member needs to use common sense and some restraint especially when dealing with firearms. The worst punishment he will deal with is the fact that for the rest of his life he will have to know that he killed a fellow soldier because of a mistake he made.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Oct 16 at 2014 5:55 PM

2014-10-16T17:55:40-04:00

It is a Negligent Accident. This is called a "Negligent Discharge" and gets you fired from certain units.

I have a question: Why was his M-4 loaded? Because he had a "Brain Fart" and continued passing gas after the round was chambered but accepted full responsibility (Kudos to him) he still took the life of another human being in a Negligent manner. I think that the 2 year sentence is very fair (could have been 5). He can appeal the discharge later.

CARDINAL RULES OF FIREARMS SAFETY:

1) TREAT ALL WEAPONS AS THOUGH THEY WERE LOADED.
2)NEVER POINT THE WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
3)DO NOT PLACE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.
4)ALWAYS BE AWARE OF YOUR TARGET ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING WHAT IS BEHIND, BESIDE, OR IN FRONT OF YOUR TARGET.

Even this Negligent Discharge violated all of these rules. Just Sayin'.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 7:09 PM

2014-10-16T19:09:36-04:00

To be absent-mindedly flicking the safety switch on his M4 service rifle from “safe” to “semi” while directing traffic at the end of a 12-hour shift. And then pulling back the charging handle and accidentally chambering a round. What the hell do you mean accidentally, does he think that the good gun ferry would make it safe and stop the round. For gods sake that is asinine. You know he has received better training then that. It is totally inexcusable and should have been dealt with much harsher. I have no sympathy for this asinine idiot and hope the family of Lance Cpl. Mark Boterf can find some peace after this tragedy.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 17 at 2014 4:14 AM

2014-10-17T04:14:09-04:00

If someone zapped my baby and only got two years for it I would be livid! Marines sleep with their weapon. They know every molecule of it. This sounds fishy to me. I hope they did a proper investigation, cause I don't buy it.

Response by SGT Leigh Barton made Oct 17 at 2014 5:36 AM

2014-10-17T05:36:42-04:00

In a word, NO. This Marine has handled weapons before, safely and effectively. Enough for him to become COMFORTABLE WITH IT. And after 12 hours under arms, became careless with it. This incident does not reflect on the training, simply put, there can be no excuse for having a man under arms for 12 hours continuously outside a hostile fire zone. That duration alone can reduce the ability to remain focused to dangerously low levels. Especially in a comparatively innocuous area. As for corrective measures, this Marine needs evaluation for PTS, and a medical discharge, since it's highly unlikely he'll ever be able to handle any weapon again. We need to face the fact that with the sheer number of people handling weapons, THERE WILL BE ACCIDENTS. It's an occupational hazard.

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Oct 17 at 2014 11:31 AM

2014-10-17T11:31:40-04:00

How in the world did this happen? First of all, don't play with the safety. Second, how did he chamber a round when attempting to clear the weapon? Did he not take the magazine out first? And just how does one "accidentally" pull the trigger of an M4? It's not exactly a hair-trigger, it takes a fair amount of pressure to actually fire a round. Did this Marine never once handle a weapon before that day?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 11:48 AM

2014-10-17T11:48:38-04:00

Yes; combine this with statistics on other negligent discharges and we (all military leaders) should be stressing firearms safety and familiarity every chance we get.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-10-17T12:03:04-04:00

Someone else said it on this thread but I still remember to this day "Never point your weapon at anything you aren't willing to take out" Pointing your weapon "down range" when clearing it. Making sure it's cleared properly. Not to make light of matters, but if he was bored, maybe he should have remembered the scene from I think it was Full Metal Jacket. http://youtu.be/4kU0XCVey_U

This Is My Rifle. This Is My Gun

This is for fighting. This is for fun. *UPLOADED WITH PERMISSION* DONATE: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=GUNGJNSJWU3ZS&lc=US&i...

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Oct 17 at 2014 12:11 PM

2014-10-17T12:11:57-04:00

This is an on duty incident with an issued service weapon. Service weapon safety should be re-iterated and monitored repeatedly. This was reckless endangerment by the soldier. The military should stay out of the matter of privately owned firearms.

Response by SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr made Oct 17 at 2014 5:34 PM

2014-10-17T17:34:06-04:00

First, why was he standing guard for 12 hours? Second, weapons training always stressed "this isn't a toy". Third, his sentence should have been stiffer, regardless of his acceptance of wrong.

Response by SSG William Patton made Oct 23 at 2014 1:07 PM

2014-10-23T13:07:51-04:00

Unfortunately, firearm accidents have occurred throughout the history of the military, but considering that many carry hot weapons, the accidents are miniscule. The military pounds firearm safety into all recruits in basic and reinforces that principle in all training. Still, accidents to happen. I do not know what else the military could do to have zero incidents.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 11:13 AM

2014-10-27T11:13:38-04:00

I wasn't there, and don't want to play devils advocate or take a side one way or the other...I also know that we are all different in our thought processes....but this seems like too convenient or strange of a series of events to have just been accidental. Not that I am advocating that it wasn't.

I STILL shoot in practical matches and on the range by myself and I am STILL overly conscious and very vigilant regarding where my finger is, the position of my safety, and what condition my weapon(s) are/is in. If there are 5 things (realistically there are many more than 5) that I will never EVER forget from my time in the Marine Corps, one of the top 5 is how to properly handle and/or use a weapon. It is almost a matter muscle memory and habit...like putting my seat belt on.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Oct 29 at 2014 4:00 AM

2014-10-29T04:00:24-04:00

I do not think we need to beat a dead horse any longer, it should not be called firearm safety it should be called people safety as its not the firearm thats making mistakes or killing people, its people making mistakes and killing people, I do believe we loose more lives in the US by transportation accidents and yet we dont seem to want to have to burden ourselves with tougher driving orientation programs and I have never seen where anyone has to go through any type of training to board a civilian flight or a train or a boat.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 8 at 2014 6:09 PM

2014-11-08T18:09:25-05:00

This sort of incident is exactly what leads to policies like the blanket ban on an Armed "Armed Forces" this is why we have to turn our weapons into an armory, why federal law prohibits us from carrying our arms on our own bases. This policy opens us up to attack from active shooters and from "lone wolf" threats. I'm interested in whether anyone has crunched comparison data on NDs for the military vs police forces. Anyone who can help out with that it would be much appreciated. I think we NEED to change policy to allow more of our "Armed Forces" to be, in fact, armed and capable of the use of force. What do you think? Join the debate on this thread by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member and let us know what you think. http://www.rallypoint.com/answers/concealed-carry-for-cac-holders?page=1&urlhash=317205#317205

Concealed carry for all current service members (CAC holders)? | RallyPoint

Should uniformed military be allowed to conceal carry any were in the U.S. with a CAC as a license due to increased threats to military personnel?

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Nov 8 at 2014 11:19 PM

2014-11-08T23:19:28-05:00

O.K. If I read this right, this was not a mistake. Sounds like he executed his fellow service member and came up with an excuse on how he shot him.

You do not accidentally pull back a charging handle on an M4. It takes a lot of effort, even when you are trying to do it on purpose. Secondly, even if a weapon is on safe, if you pull back a charging handle of an M4 that has a loaded magazine, it will chamber a round. One of the first things in clearing a weapon is making sure there is not a load magazine in the magazine well.

There are two many "perfect" events in this story to be true....accidentally "flick the safety on fire", did not realize a magazine was in the weapon; pulled the charging handle back and accidentally loaded a round, accidentally pointed the weapon at his partner that would cause a "kill shot" if a round went off, and then accidentally pulled the trigger killing his buddy.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Nov 9 at 2014 12:05 AM

2014-11-09T00:05:59-05:00

The Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center has a plethora of incidents involving firearms and negligence. It's astounding how many times complacency puts soldiers at risk. I read about an incident where two officers were playing "laser tag" with the laser pointers on the pistol grips of their issued M9's. As is usually the case, someone's pistol had a round chambered and the other officer was shot.

I wonder where the NCO was in this scenario. I don't mean to sound like I'm passing the buck here. The LCpl messed up bad. What about the other members of the detail? Did someone notice him messing with the selector lever? Did anyone tell him to quit messing around? I know this is starting to sound like a 15-6 investigation, but more details surrounding the incident would be enlightening.

The punishment seems fitting. On top of all this, he will still have to live with his actions. His one moment of inattention may end up defining his time in service. It reminds me of a saying I heard with some adult language:

"You can build a thousand bridges and be known as a bridge builder, but you suck just one dick, and you're a cocksucker for life"

I would say this incident doesn't call for any "CRACK DOWN" on policy or procedures. Perhaps a review of clearing procedures. The bigger lesson would be to ensue all members of the shift/team are checking up on each other. Fatigue and complacency can kill just as effectively as any enemy.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 6:06 AM

2014-11-09T06:06:17-05:00

I would say better training. When I was a Firefighter/EMT before joining the military I had some tools at my disposal that were very useful if used correctly and deadly if used incorrectly. If I were to make a mistake that resulted in death, I could potentially get called to court to answer for my actions. Also called to court would be my company officer, my EMT instructor, the EMS coordinator, and the Fire Chief. Everyone has to show that they did enough to ensure I didn't make mistakes like giving people 10 times the proper dose of morphine or giving making someones heart explode by giving them too much of a med that has a side effect of increased heart rate.
Maybe his immediate supervisor, his commander, and his arms instructor should have been called up to testify and to answer for why something like this was possible. This probably wasn't the first time he played with the safety, this probably wasn't the first time he cleared his weapon while sitting down. This makes me wonder how many times he's followed these improper procedures without shooting someone, and I refuse to use the word accident. An accident is when everyone involved does everything within their power to prevent something and it happens anyway.

Response by SGT Steve Vincent made Nov 13 at 2014 8:39 AM

2014-11-13T08:39:33-05:00

I firmly believe that no matter his levels of contriteness or remorse, he was a complete and utter idiot, in this case. He did not follow his training, orders, or common sense. He KILLED a fellow Marine through his actions. He should have received the maximum punishment allowed under the UCMJ.

On a side note, we carry live ammo for gate guard now??? When I enlisted after September 11th, my first duty station was korea. I was in a foreign country pulling gate guard, and we weren't issued ammo. And there were riots happening outside of military bases over there, back when the military was shutting down most of the camps up north, and drastically expanding Camp Humphries...

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 6:23 PM

2014-11-13T18:23:44-05:00

I don't think we need to "crack down" over a single incident of someone ignoring their training. What proposed additional training will stop a dumb person from making a stupid mistake?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 11:21 PM

2014-11-24T23:21:44-05:00

From the first day the weapon was issued in Boot Camp, weapons safety was stressed. As a Marine in general, and an MP specifically, there is NO EXCUSE for his actions. Admitting what idiotic and "absent minded" activities he was performing does not diminish his fault. I bet LCpl Boterf's family wishes he was alive to live with a lifetime scar... but he's not. A fellow Marine paid the ultimate price for Little's incompetence and ineptitude. His failure to behave with the discipline required and expected of a Marine in his position should result in the stiffest penalty available. No excuse. No oops. A lifetime of guilt and torment is rightfully earned.

Response by Sgt John Gaddy made Dec 16 at 2014 10:22 AM

2014-12-16T10:22:05-05:00

It has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. No matter what rules are in place and how much training is giving there will always be an idiot who does not think. I find it funny that society will jump all over a firearms incident but, we have the same things that occur with motor vehicles on the roads that kill people daily and yet there is no media coverage or push for taking the drivers off the road. Since I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1994-2002 I know of two Marines killed by negligent discharges of firearms. So I am sure there are other Marines who have been in prior and after who have knowledge of the same type of incidents going back to 1775. Lesson here. Do not stand in front of someone unloading a firearm.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2014 5:34 PM

2014-12-17T17:34:23-05:00

There is no exception to firearm safety. If we are to train as we fight, then weapon safety is the same: We train to a single standard. There should not be a different standard of safety at the range, vs safety at home, in a classroom, with a loaded or unloaded weapon (Rule 1), on post, down range etc. If your training is proper and you do not make exceptions for yourself, then your correct muscle memory can keep you out of trouble even if you do have a "brain fart."

Practice DOES NOT make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. For the same reason, all other types of soldier training are perfected under stress so that under real-life circumstances when emotions and stress are high, training takes over.

One specific example of the 4 Gun Laws violation I have seen over and over at gun stores and even with military/LE instructors when handling an unloaded weapon with no magazine, is that many will still exercise poor muzzle discipline. There are good teaching points that teaching staff can learn to improve their presentations and eliminate the chances of covering students with the muzzle even in a close "student circle (not ideal) or semi-circle (doable)" environment. If it were OK to violate the rules in these environments, it is programming an incorrect muscle memory for other situations.

Response by MSgt Rick Runion made Jan 5 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-01-05T14:37:35-05:00

It is a tragedy that a Marine would lose his life do to the complacent stupidity of a fellow Marine.
That said I have issue with the question being asked.
Marine recruits are issued their first weapon (it is not a gun by the way, it is a rifle.) on Forming Day 4 in recruit training. The next day is Training Day 1. From that moment they are ingrained with the 4 basic safety rules of handling any weapon.

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
3. Never point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot.
4. Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

Let a recruit get caught violating one of these rules and you will see an immediate and passionate response from any DI or any other Marine for that matter that happens to be in the area.

Weapons safety is already and has always been within the fabric of every Marine.
As for the other services. I was in the Army for four years before I joined the Corps.
Weapons Safety was something the Army also taught me very well and was thoroughly enforced.
Even to this day when I handle any weapon it is automatic to practice basic safety. And if you point a weapon at me I will take it as a threat and respond accordingly.

It was my practice of these basic rules that kept anyone from getting hurt when as a young Marine Cpl my M-60 malfunctioned and accidentally fired. In 1993 I was the Gunner on a "Hardback Hummer" in Mogadishu. As we were leaving the Port Gate as rear security for a supply convoy I went to ready my weapon. From the turret I had the weapon fully elevated, as I fed my belt and charged the weapon with the safety on of course the safety sear failed to catch properly and allowed the bolt to go home firing a single 7.62 round high over the gate. Now I'll spare you the details of the "dress down" I received from the Sergeant of the Guard and his entire Chain of command all the way up to the Colonel in charge of the port. But the last thing the Col said to me was "Thank God you had your weapon elevated". The weapon was disassembled by the armorer and he found the safety sear damaged and rebuilt the guts of my weapon. Function checks had not indicated a problem. Even though I was not at fault my Platoon Sgt still had me write and give weapons classes to the entire platoon for the next week (that was in between 12 to 16 hours a day of missions).
The bottom line was a 20 year old weapon malfunctioned and because of the practice of proper safety no one was hurt, well maybe the pride of a hard charging Cpl, but that's Okay because all who witnessed the event went on to tell the tale and give me a hard time.

And so the question was:
"Are some service members becoming too comfortable with carrying such powerful weapons that they forget safety measures?
What can be done to prevent these tragedies from happening?"
Answer: It's already being done! Every leader of Marines knows the importance of weapons safety and how to enforce it. You can't control everything that will happen to include the actions of a young Marine on guard duty being an idiot.

So I say this. Don't let the liberal hype that guns are evil and kill people muddle the fact that human beings, even those who have the best training, will make mistakes and sometimes the result will be very tragic consequences.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 9:56 AM

2015-01-08T09:56:25-05:00

He got off easy. Fire arms safety is no joke. especially with Marines it is DRILLED into their skulls

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jun 21 at 2015 12:55 AM

2015-06-21T00:55:26-04:00

Are there any updates on this? Did they do a competent investigation? I say shenanigans. No one is that stupid.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 21 at 2015 2:31 AM

2015-06-21T02:31:32-04:00

Firstly did they not have a clearing barrel? Secondly, why the f**k was he trying to clear a weapon with a magazine inserted in the magazine well? Lastly, DON'T PLAY WITH THE FUCKING SELECTOR SWITCH.

Sorry for yelling but there is absolutely no excuse for no firearm safety.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 21 at 2015 2:57 AM

2015-06-21T02:57:39-04:00

Leaders can do a one or a few things. Leaders can actually bring in weapons with approval and have a safety show down for the entire day. Each SM can be shown how to clear each type of weapon. Safety on other subjects should be discussed as well; not just fire arms.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Aug 30 at 2015 9:33 AM

2015-08-30T09:33:43-04:00

YES

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-08-31T16:51:52-04:00

So...much...ambiguity.

ADs happen-we've all seen them; however, this sounds like an almost impossible set of circumstances. If he removed the magazine, and there was a round in the chamber, then pulling the charging handle should've unloaded the round. The only way I see this truly happening on "accident" would be if he tried to "clear" the weapon with a magazine in the well...ejecting the chambered round, then releasing the bolt to re-chamber a second? Even then, it's not "easy" to flick the trigger without meaning to, or being excessively stupid. After all that, the muzzle has to be pointed at his fellow Marine...I may be a little "rusty", but can some of our Marine peers detail clearing procedures in the Corps?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-08-31T17:15:10-04:00

Two cardinal rules with weapons. Never point at something you don't want to kill. And never put your finger on the trigger unless ready to shoot - PERIOD.

Response by Sgt Oswaldo Garcia made Nov 6 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-11-06T10:43:19-05:00

My Lt. Would say there should be consequences to stupidity. He broke many safety rules. Some of the are wanton disregard for safety of fellow Marines. I believe he gets off easy with 5 years. I appreciate he owns up for what he did, but wouldn't any of us have done this.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 6:35 PM

2015-11-18T18:35:27-05:00

No, it doesn't

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Nov 18 at 2015 8:14 PM

2015-11-18T20:14:13-05:00

I think he should get a general discharge under other than honorable conditions. It was a stupid accident. We have a race-baiting Cmdr in Chief who submitted forged documents as evidence of his eligibility and has committed treason (by virtually EVERY definition), who somehow manages to compromise national security, gets our SEAL Team and Ambassador killed, and yet remains in office. By comparison, this guy isn't too bad. Am not minimizing what that kid had done, [we can never bring the dead back to life], but if he had been texting, got in a car wreck and killed somebody, would he get a dishonorable discharge for that?

Response by LCpl Ash Carson made Nov 19 at 2015 3:46 AM

2015-11-19T03:46:13-05:00

The marine should've known better than to be messing around with the safety on that rifle. We are taught weapon safety for a good reason so "accidents" like that don't happen

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 7:49 AM

2015-11-19T07:49:10-05:00

There you go ... ban all firearms. lol

just like driving ... accident happen... personal mistake happen, complacency happen ...

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Nov 19 at 2015 9:19 AM

2015-11-19T09:19:10-05:00

The reality is, humans make mistakes, sometimes though lack of training, sometimes though lack of attention to detail and sometimes though neglect.
In 2010-2011 I processed more than 110 ND's from four different nations SM's, several of those were injury inducing. two caused death. Only a few were caused though intentional, willful negligence. None were accidents all were negligent discharges. All were mistakes a of a human that caused an event.
Identify the proximate cause, apply appropriate and direct corrective action that specifically addresses the event causing action and move on. No hand wringing needed, no deep reflection.. A Human made a mistake, address it and get back to work

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Nov 19 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-11-19T10:27:56-05:00

Wow, first let me say thanks for sharing, this is my first time I am hearing about this case. I think the punishment is just and based off the information provided here the Marine did take full responsibility for his actions.

Response by LCpl Mark Napier made Nov 19 at 2015 2:50 PM

2015-11-19T14:50:33-05:00

The Marine was taught from day one to keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to shoot. We were all taught strict safety rules. I carried a pistol everyday no incidents, your never going to stop carelessness no matter how hard you try. I stood gate shifts I've been out there 12 hours many days sometimes getting bored and almost everyone I stood post with at one point or another played with or took their fire arm out of holster took pictures holding them. It is never going to change I'm sure most military members can say they were not completely 100% safe at all times with their weapon. It's tragic it happened, not sure anything can stop it. Still unsure how he tried to correct it by pulling the trigger.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Nov 19 at 2015 9:41 PM

2015-11-19T21:41:14-05:00

There were several proceedures the Marine didn't follow which led to a negligent discharge. It wasn't a lack of training or proceedures that caused this. It was a Marine who lacked the discipline to follow his training.
As far as I know there isnt a period of instruction called "Don't be an Idiot".

Response by LCpl Tad Cunningham made Nov 20 at 2015 10:05 PM

2015-11-20T22:05:42-05:00

I think it shows that not every Marine is a rifleman. 0311s are rifleman. Every Marine knows how to shoot a gun, but clearly not operate it safely.

Response by SGT Robert Deem made Nov 25 at 2015 11:25 AM

2015-11-25T11:25:18-05:00

So, we send a guy to prison because we're mad at him for being irresponsible and careless. Lock him up with a bunch of rapists, murderers, and other career criminals who will certainly do nothing to improve that aspect of his character. Then, best case scenario, in two years we put another person on the street who is unemployable (dishonorable discharge and prison time), completely dependent on government assistance, potentially of a criminal mindset now that he's spent all that time locked up with other criminals and his options are severely limited if not non-existent. Who benefits from this? Are we less mad at him? Is the Marine he killed brought back to life? Is society in general more safe? When are we going to start thinking about the end-game when it comes to criminal justice?

Discharging him from service goes without saying. Other than Honorable is probably more appropriate, since the death was not intentional (murder) and therefore doesn't really rise to the level of Dishonorable conduct in my opinion. We give Dishonorable discharges for things like treason, desertion, and pre-meditated murder - are we really putting this accident in the same category? Reduction in rank is also a no-brainer. Prison time is just salve to make us feel better in the moment and will only serve to harm us all in the long run.

Did anything happen with this Marine's chain-of-command? If this kid was an E-3, there were a lot of layers of folks above him responsible for his training, discipline, and the command climate in the unit that would allow for something like this to happen.

Response by GySgt Charles Smith made Nov 26 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-11-26T12:39:09-05:00

No! We only need Marines to do what they are trained to do from the earliest stages of recruit training and what is continually reinforced throughout their career, be it 4 years or 24.

1. Treat every weapon as if it was loaded.
2. Never point your weapon at anything that you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

I have been out for over a decade and not only can I still quote the 4 firearms safety rules from memory, but I also know first-hand that every Marine, before they get to the rifle range at recruit training, can quote them, demonstrate them through safe weapons handling and pay a tremendous price for any violation of them as that training is reinforced by Drill Instructors and Primary Marksmanship Instructors. All 4 safety rules had to be neglected in order for this unfortunate incident to occur and that is why we dropped the term "accidental discharge" in favor of the more appropriate term "negligent discharge." This incident, while it was not intentional, was no accident, as tough as that may sound. It was the direct result of a Marine "neglecting" his duty to abide by those rules at all times. He would have had to see a gigantic sign with them (the firearms safety rules) posted at the armory every time he drew his weapon and every time he cleared it at the clearing barrel (which is where he should have been; another procedure that he neglected to follow). While I am on that note, if members of his chain of command/ chain of leadership allowed such dangerous disregard for weapons clearing procedures (i.e., clearing weapons somewhere other than a clearing barrel) then they share some culpability for not maintaining a proper safety climate; that would need to be addressed in a top-down review.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Jan 16 at 2016 6:51 PM

2016-01-16T18:51:45-05:00

Stoopid is as Stoopid does but no How many rounds get hammered home and don't kill people 12 hour shifts was he being punished??? or are the Marines so short handed in Combat Arms???

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Jan 22 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-01-22T17:25:02-05:00

How hard is it to clear your weapon into a sand barrel or to mind your muzzle direction? I like to think our Marines are smarter than that. Using the buddy system isn't a bad idea, either.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 9:02 AM

2016-02-05T09:02:50-05:00

This guy accidentally killed a friend. I am sure the mental anguish that he is going through every day is more of a punishment than a harsher prison sentence would have been. Two years in prison and a dishonorable discharge is sufficient.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Mar 16 at 2017 5:42 PM

2017-03-16T17:42:09-04:00

He was trained in the proper handling of his weapon and that's as if it's loaded at all times. Muzzle control, never point it at anything you don't want to shoot. Clear the weapon properly. I feel sorry for him but look what the family of Lance Corporal Boterf lost in this careless act.

Response by SPC Les Darbison made Apr 10 at 2017 1:15 AM

2017-04-10T01:15:44-04:00

There is no excuse for the lack of Firearms safety. But you hear about it happening all the time. Range Masters or firearms instructors over confident and at times careless causing firearm deaths, or shootings. I dought there is any excuse for these type of incidents . And I "am not making one here when , I say one accidental death is one to many. Lets think of Firearms use as an industry with a safety record . Will I would venture to s say no industry is accident free and firearms use when viewed as an industry has one of the best safety records, of any sport, hobby, or Carrier professorial use like LEO's ,and Military, Accidents should be highlighted and brought forward all the time to encourage us to always be mindful of are responsibilities as firearm owners and users. Some of us have fired Hundreds of thousands of rounds , and I pray none of us become complacent with firearm safety, or responsible for an accidental death or maying (SP) . Just " MY TWO CENTS WORTH ON THIS TOPIC"

Response by Cpl Vic Eizenga made Apr 27 at 2017 2:09 AM

2017-04-27T02:09:03-04:00

no some was not paying attention 4 wrong steps that I counted. but then I do not really know much about that weapon we had M14's and 1911's . but even under lock and loaded in Vietnam safety on finger not on the trigger . What is down range? when you point it are you going to kill it?

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Sep 27 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-09-27T12:05:06-04:00

He wasn't playing with his gun... he was playing with his weapon.

Response by Maj Eric Gumz made Jan 31 at 2020 3:57 PM

2020-01-31T15:57:40-05:00

The nature of the business we do in the military is inherently dangerous, there is always risk in what we do both in training and combat. That being said, some MOS are far more proficient than others for obvious reasons (training and time handeling weapons) but also because of MOS specific mentalities towards weapons in general, for example admin MOS mentality is no where near the same as infantry MOS mentality when it comes to weapons and weapon safety. We spend so much time on training during administrative stand downs some useful but many not so much. At the end of the day you only,have so many hours in a day and so,many days in a year and only so much funding, it comes down to your priorities, much of which are dictated to the military by politicians as a part of a grand social experiment and then wonder why mistakes happen. Cross training is a useful tool I used to send my radio operators to be cross trained in crew served weapons by machine gunners and mortarmen from weapons company and while they recieved non MOS training,on,various weapons systems and their employment the grunts got refreshed on how to operate a radio and trouble shoot. This isnt the norm however, most Marines go to the rifle range for 2 weeks a year and a few days for pistol range then the weapons are cleaned and pit away until next,years qualification, or CMP shoot. No,matter what training implement or how careful you are or how,much emphasis you put on weapons handeling or safety the human factor always applies and mistakes will be made but the training and attitude and mindset set by the command at all levels can mitigate that risk and minimize mistakes and the consequences.

Response by SPC Donna Partain made Jul 29 at 2024 5:11 PM

2024-07-29T17:11:06-04:00

Your kidding, right?!