Does it make a difference when you find out the new LT/Ensign is prior enlisted?

2015-02-28T13:42:05-05:00

I'm sure that pretty much everyone on this site has experienced working with/for a brand new LT/Ensign. All you could do was hope they weren't a complete disaster, and maybe, just maybe, they could be mentored and developed. The supervisors probably hoped the new guy wouldn't get in the way, and SNCOs and Officers probably hoped they could at least tie their own shoes. But after a quick observation of their uniform and a short conversation, you find out that they started their career in the E ranks. At that moment, without knowing anything else, what is your immediate reaction? Does your opinion of them change? Does it make your opinion of them better or worse?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 1:46 PM

2015-02-28T13:46:46-05:00

It likely means that they are not clueless, and you won't have to start from scratch showing them how things really work.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 5:37 PM

2015-02-28T17:37:56-05:00

Can be good. Means that they understand enlisted life, and what it's like to be on the bottom of the totem pole. Can be bad, if they still think like an e-4.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-02-28T18:07:02-05:00

I will just say it made a difference on how I was accepted.

Response by Maj Jeff Dodd made Feb 28 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-02-28T18:07:27-05:00

I think it gave me instant street cred with my fellow C-130 aircrew members (at least the enlisted ones), but I also felt like like the aircraft maintenance folks warmed up to me quicker once they found out I was a former E. That said, I have worked with plenty of former E officers who were disliked by all ranks.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:15 PM

2015-02-28T18:15:39-05:00

I know this is wrong but my initial reaction would be "Oh, thank GOD!" but after that it would be a more okay this "could be good or bad." Most of the time they understand because they have "been there, done that." It gives them the unfair advantage with the Enlisted mainly due to perception. However, only time will show how they plan to utilize that prior knowledge.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-02-28T18:16:07-05:00

I couldn't care less. Generally, they'll have some experience, but they may not be able to keep their nose out of NCO business.

Furthermore, I am a direct commission AMEDD officer..... so I should be the example of screwed up.... yet people mistake me for a mustang all the time. Why? ?? I asked my questions at the recruiting station. I picked the various NCOs and officers that I knew what they expected of officers. What qualities did they admire?? What are lessons that they learned the hard way? Since they were mostly WW2 or later paratroopers, I figured I couldn't go wrong. It hasn't failed me yet.

Maybe I am that rare breed, but I have met some messed up prior enlisted that were never NCOS or have forgotten what they could have learned..... or else crossed over to be the dumper instead of the bowl.

Everyone starts with a blank slate for the most part..... but my expectations are slightly higher with regards to the learning curve for prior enlisted due to the decreased volume of new information.
V/R,
CPT Butler

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:42 PM

2015-02-28T18:42:37-05:00

It could go either way. I've seen butter bars that were absolutely terrible LT's, compared to when they were a SSG. There is one particular PL (2LT) I had who went out of his way to be just like the SFC he was before he got his commission.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 28 at 2015 6:46 PM

2015-02-28T18:46:26-05:00

He probably won't get us lost on land nav. Of if he even thinks he will, he'll hand it off and "train someone else" and let them take the reigns.

Don't get me wrong, it could be good or bad, but if it's a butterbar, initial gut reaction is oh thank God. O2+ I lean towards "could be good or bad," just because with second lieutenants, they are just an unknown quantity... being a former Enlisted turns them into at least a known quantity.

Response by Cpl Rick West made Feb 28 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-02-28T19:20:34-05:00

I think it gives them more insight on what it's like to be enlisted.
They should be less likely to be on a power trip. They should know
how it felt to be on the receiving end of that power trip. In theory,
it should make them better leaders.

Response by MSgt Michael Durkee made Feb 28 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-02-28T19:23:16-05:00

Some of the best officers I've worked with and for were former Enlisted, and some of the worst as well. Ultimately it comes down to the person and their character.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 7:46 PM

2015-02-28T19:46:57-05:00

They might think they know it all ... Or they might remember what it was like to be a troop and act with some humility.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Feb 28 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-02-28T20:27:33-05:00

This could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But, on the other hand you could find yourself with an individual with a power trip.

Atleast the individual has experience on both sides of the fence. Our previous Company Commander has been a 1st Sgt. prior to going Officer. Sometimes I think he still thinks he is a 1st Sgt. other than that he was a great Officer

Response by SFC Olivero Rodriguez made Feb 28 at 2015 9:45 PM

2015-02-28T21:45:20-05:00

the reason could be that, when they were enlisted they did not pay attention to details and fail to properly adquiere instructive knowledge of a well train soldier. or they learned as much information

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 1 at 2015 8:19 AM

2015-03-01T08:19:23-05:00

I not only had platoon leader that went this path but a battalion commander and in my opinion these two were best damn leaders I had. I also have worked with one that just because she was enlisted she new everything coming out of OBC which when she commissioned she changed branches from personnel to signal. She was great for writing memorandums but clueless when it came to COMSEC or communications in general. So I vote it could be good or bad depending on the situation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 8:56 AM

2015-03-01T08:56:21-05:00

I think it does. When I hit my platoon I was not challenged as much. I was a SSG with 10 years in before my commission. I knew how things worked. But it makes thing harder for you to be honest. Just because I am prior service I don't know everything. Sometimes they expect you to know it all. It is not bad but it places an additional burden. There is a possibility that your commander could give you more work and duties because of that. It works up and down.

It could be bad for the PSG for several reasons. First, being that the PL may think he knows more than the PSG. The PSG may have to put him in his place. It will turn into a extremely difficult relationship. The only thing that is worse is when the PL know more than the PSG. This can happen. A PL usually never corrects the PSG. If it does happen, even if it is justified, the PSG view it as the PL questioning his ability.

I can say I thought I knew how to be a PL when I commissioned. I was wrong. I knew how to employ a platoon in combat but I really didn't have a clue how to be a PL. I had a bumpy road. I think I am better for my experience but that is for my soldiers to decide.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-03-01T09:09:37-05:00

A little biased because I think my enlisted time helped me, but I am not one to make that determination.

I think there is great utility in having enlisted experience, especially if you are commissioned in the same general field or branch. But as with promotions from E4 to E5 or other transitional promotions (PSG to 1SG), you have to know that as an Officer, you are not a solider any more -- you do not get to hang out in the barracks, you should not be overly social with the soldiers and you must let the support channel have their space.

I am sure I made some missteps, but for the most part, because of my experience I have always believed the prior service officer had the benefit of the doubt. A good example in my last command was my PA -- CPT Private RallyPoint Member had a ton of experience and brought leadership that from an area that wasn't always expected (the area being the PA); further, his numerous enlisted successes gave him immediate credibility, even as a 2LT and he quickly became a peer mentor for the other junior officers.

Could be good or bad, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 9:28 AM

2015-03-01T09:28:18-05:00

I love how people continue to say the LT gets us lost on land nav. I've never run a mission where I was the primary point man with the responsibility of the distance and direction. I ALWAYS kept my own, but how does the LT land nav from the middle of the platoon???

Rant over, being prior enlisted I believe I'm better off. However, like a lot of these comments, I've struggled with turning off the E side as an officer. It happens. I can definitely see it going either way.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-03-01T09:48:13-05:00

I honestly could care less...reasoning... If I feel relieved that means I am assuming he knows more or less than he might actually know...that would set me up for failure

So I don't care if you have prior service or not. You will be treated the same.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 1 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-03-01T10:12:33-05:00

I didn't really see an option that I would agree with more or less. However I would personally say I have more confidence in officers that I hear are prior enlisted.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 1 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-03-01T11:20:09-05:00

This sounds similar to another thread, https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-is-the-one-thing-every-young-officer-must-know but rather, asking whether prior enlisted experience will have already taught the young officer the important things you want him/her to know upon arrival.

Fact is, you don't get to pick whether your new JO is going to be prior enlisted. Given that constraint, what one thing do you want him/her to know before reporting in at your unit? Maybe he/she will read your comment here and save you the trouble beforehand.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 1 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-03-01T11:22:31-05:00

Seen both good and bad, depends a lot on the rank the person held prior to commissioning, also how well they accepted advice from myself or any other NCO with whom they interacted during their initial "learning" phase in the PLT/CO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-03-01T12:54:36-05:00

I think that having a "mustang officer" can be a great thing because they have seen how the enlisted side works and have a much deeper understanding of the military as a whole.

What they do with this information can be good or bad though. If they act like a know it all because they were prior enlisted then it can be bad but if they use that experience as a relationship tool with their enlisted members then it could be very good.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 1 at 2015 2:22 PM

2015-03-01T14:22:43-05:00

Hey! I Resemble this remark! Truly tho, I have seen it go both ways....they are good because they remember where they came from and can understand both sides..... or bad because they know exactly what your role is better then you do and they will be sure to let you know all about it!

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:03 PM

2015-03-03T13:03:35-05:00

Finding out that the new officer is a Mustang relieves so much stress off the SNCO/CPO. That means getting down to business faster with this individual rather than having to train a new person into the grind of things.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:09 PM

2015-03-03T13:09:13-05:00

There is more empathy and overall understanding of troops at more levels. That's why Warrant Officers are so cool! ;-)

Response by CPT Arch Nissel made Mar 3 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-03-03T13:29:24-05:00

My first duty station as a Combat Engineer all the Officers were West Pointers except one who was a prior service ROTC Grad. MASSIVE difference, 90% of the company were combat vets, we had a 1LT as a CO who you could not talk to as he knew it all. He was so bad he AD a round from his .45 through the side of his jeep and ordered the shop to fix it and not tell anyone. The prior service officer was the exact opposite he made good decisions, worked with the senior NCOs, and had earned his respect. When I finished OCS I went back to the same A-team I had been a senior engineer sgt on. It was not much of a change I just had a different job and the team worked as usual just the pay check was better.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 3 at 2015 1:32 PM

2015-03-03T13:32:48-05:00

If they spent maybe a day as an MOSQ E3 and then applied to OCS, then it's almost as bad as having a know-it-all freshly-minted ROTC grad.

However, if they were a successful NCO who has led troops and then went OCS, it could be quite good for you and your troops.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:35 PM

2015-03-03T13:35:28-05:00

I am this person right now. I appreciate those that have an enlisted background, and that's why I chose to enlist prior to commissioning as well.

Response by PO1 Dustin Adams made Mar 3 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-03-03T17:09:11-05:00

In my experience Mustangs where either the best or the worst to work with.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-03-03T17:24:21-05:00

Honestly I could go either way with this, I've had great LTs in both paths. And a couple that needed some work from both paths. But generally I appreciate knowing that at least they know what work looked like, and what NCO business might have actually been so that they don't get bent out of shape with a gentle comment like "NCO business LT, can you give us a sec?"

Response by PO2 Gary Baran made Mar 3 at 2015 5:39 PM

2015-03-03T17:39:08-05:00

stallions always make better officers because they've seen it done it ,and know what it is lke in the ranks.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Mar 3 at 2015 8:53 PM

2015-03-03T20:53:53-05:00

Look, the great thing about prior enlisted is that they generally know enough not to get themselves hurt. That alone put me at ease after some of the antics I saw some non-prior enlisted Lieutenants pull.
One of which caused a career ending injury because he outranked us and repeatedly wouldn't follow one basic safety precaution and because of the rank issue I couldn't make him not help.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-03-03T22:47:55-05:00

In general it provides me with a positive impression. Typically they have an idea of what right looks like and how the military operates. I firmly believe the time I had prior to commissioning has continued to help set me up for success, as short as it was.

I don't think prior service is the end all, be all however. Right before I deployed as a PL our XO was relieved and placed on the rear detachment. He had recycled BOLC for academic reasons, had an ND during Annual training, and was moved from his Platoon for poor leadership. He was also a prior service E5(P) who had BNCOC complete, a tour in Iraq, and a CAB when he got to his Platoon. I've also seen new 2LTs excel with almost no experience prior to taking their first Platoon.

I think Gen. Schwartzkopf said it well: "Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you must be without one, be without the strategy." In my opinion the character of the young Officer will ultimately be what sets them up for success or failure. You can train strategy but it is damn difficult to develop someone's character for them.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 6:20 PM

2015-09-23T18:20:59-04:00

Being prior makes the enlisted guys feel way more comfortable talking to me. Gives me great opportunities to get to know the techs on my crew (AWACS) and get some mentorship time in! As an enlisted guy it certainly made me feel better knowing our officers were prior...but my worst commander ever was prior...so it can go both ways.