Does it get any easier to discipline a Soldier? As much as I don’t like him I don’t want to take his rank, but why?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:27:55 -0500

I have a Soldier that has put me in the position where we will be taking his rank from him. He lacks motivation, discipline, etc. He’s even been AWOL the last two Drills. I want to fix his problems, and realize that I can’t do it for him. I don’t have any options left but to take rank and re-establish the standard for my platoon. I don’t even like him personally, so why do I find myself not wanting to do this part of my job?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 1:51 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:51:36 -0500

Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Especially the bad guy that ends up taking rank. It's not a matter of like or dislike, it's about what needs to be done. If you feel rank reduction needs to happen, then submit your recommendation to the Commander and let them make that final call. And, I'm guessing the NCO's have tried everything to help turn this Soldier around?

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Feb 6 at 2019 1:52 PM

LTC Eugene Chu — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:52:56 -0500

A few things to consider before filing UCMJ to take away rank...

1. Do you have written counselings to support along with record of no-show for drill?
2. How supportive are your PSG, 1SG and unit commander for Article 15 (reserves/guard are sometimes more reluctant based on time and processing)?
3. Do you have local JAG to provide legal counseling as part of defense check-the-box?
4. Do you anticipate any possible rebuttal during hearing?

I have been the decision maker for Article 15s as a former CO CDR and previously saw some successful appeals while prior enlisted. While UCMJ is sometimes necessary, ensure that you cover yourself before taking action to avoid administrative egg on face...

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 2:49 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:49:58 -0500

Sir, There are a lot of times in the military over my 17+ years I have done stuff I defiantly didn't want to do. But as my job as an NCO it is to uphold the standard regardless of how I felt. Ive had my soldiers/marines put me in bad spots really bad spots but you have to remember your job especially being a PL is the well order and discipline of your whole platoon and especially an NCO lacking discipline and being AWOL you should feel no remorse for that soldier violating the UCMJ. It never gets easier disciplining soldiers only it gets easier once you realize you have done everything you can for that soldier and it was on them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 2:50 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:50:25 -0500

There's so many things I want to say on this, but it all comes down to counseling.
When I was a recruiter, I had to help a reserve unit kick a guy out who refused to attend drill after BCT. The guy never went to AIT, and since he wasn't MOS qualified, they couldn't kick him out.
Anyways, besides the point, he stopped coming to drill because he felt like the Army was a lie and his unit sucked. He told me that all they did was sit around and watch TV at every drill weekend. I believed him.
His unit never tracked him down, and I had to because he had an AIT slotted seat waiting for his attendance. In 2 years that he didn't attend drill, his unit never tried tracking him down in person and ask: "hey, what's up."
I hope it works out for you LT.

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 6 at 2019 3:35 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 15:35:10 -0500

No one WANTS to do that part of the job. If you do WANT to do that part of the job, it has become a personal and emotional decision. That is not a place from which to lead, seek counsel with the Senior SNCO directly subordinate to you. It is part of their job to help you through this minefield.

None the less, when taking rank is the necessary solution, remember this... You are in a VERY SERIOUS business. Everything you and your unit does, even in peace time, even in garrison, even in field training; leads to the life and death moment when you and your soldiers are in contact with the enemy.

The standard is immediate, intelligent obedience. That even includes the judgment to know when they must act outside of the letter of your orders to fulfill the intent of your orders. Even if they fail to successfully carry out their duty, did they do their best. It is about trust and if it arises trust in the life or death moment. Hopefully that life and death moment never comes. But if it does, can you trust this subordinates to do their duty with immediate intelligent obedience. If not, then your other subordinates need to know that you have the will to do what unpleasant, but necessary.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 4:04 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:04:41 -0500

Sir, just remember if he is AWOL for 9 MUTAs in a 12 month period you can process him out. If he is AWOL for the next drill then instead of reducing rank you can start the process to chapter him out, or you can give him the option by sending him a certified letter (make sure you get the part back if he accepts or refuses it) stating he can be chaptered or he can have a reduction in rank. It's all about holding him accountable for his actions (or lack of) and it will help with unit moral by letting others know this is not okay.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 4:46 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:46:33 -0500

All,
After reading the responses here and seeking counsel with my PSG, I have come to terms with what I in front of me. While we as leaders want nothing but great things for our subordinates, sometimes it is necessary to take corrective actions to prevent poor habits and behaviors from spreading, restore standards, and set examples. While I take no pleasure in taking rank, privelages, or benefits away from any Soldier, it is part of my job to look out for the welfare of my platoon as a whole. I appreciate the help and while I’m not happy about it, I am prepared to do what I must to take care of my platoon. Hopefully I will be amount the last to need to reach out for help with something like this, but since I probably won’t, I hope the next guy or gal benefits from this thread as well.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 6 at 2019 5:35 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:35:03 -0500

Good advice given. I'll add that a problem child is dealt with by the Command, not lowercase command. You may wind up as the tip of the spear, but you want to make sure upline has your six. Consequences are actually selected by the SM through their actions. Happens all the time and this stuff should be looked at as a business decision. And most importantly, you don't go into martyr mode over it. Second most important, get it done quickly so everyone can move on.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 5:52 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:52:16 -0500

If it were me I would meet him from the civilian side, go to his house, have a conversation to find out why. Maybe spousal/child problems? Maybe lost work and can't find more? Lost his car, no ride to drill, to embarrassed to ask for help, etc. There are many, many reasons why this can happen.

As a leader, I would talk with your PSG and suggest he follow up with this NCO ASAP and out of uniform. Find out what is going on. If he has truly gone AWOL then you will know 2-3 weeks before your next drill and have the correct paperwork in hand or a plan to rehabilitate.

Having had to do this in the first Gulf War (suggested by my Plt Cmdr) I was able to talk with him and find out what was going on. Called the Chaplain and got it resolved that way. It did end up with a discharge in his case, but it was a neutral discharge.

Response by SPC Angela Burnham made Feb 6 at 2019 6:09 PM

SPC Angela Burnham — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 18:09:26 -0500

Being a leader isn't always easy, I've found myself in a very similar position not to long ago. Sleeping on duty, smoking and drinking in patrol vehicles, being out of uniform. Really gave that guy every chance I could but at the end of the day, all of us are responsible for our own actions. That's the easiest way to look at this, he's the one doing this to himself, you're just stopping him from encouraging others under your command to do the same thing.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 7:20 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 19:20:11 -0500

LT, glad you're taking the initiative to do this. Many commanders I've worked with don't like doing this sort of stuff but it is necessary. Isee a lot of great discussion. Definitely try one time to sit this troop down and find out if there is some issue you can help with other than he's a bad troop. Also, you need to loop your BDE judge advocate in. I see you're ARNG. If you're T32 now, your state likely has its own state specific military justice rules that need to be followed. Also, your JA will need to be sure the charge is legally supportable. Hope this helps,. And good luck.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 7:31 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 19:31:51 -0500

It is not you against the Soldier; it is the Soldier against the standard.
An Article 15 is rare for missing drill in the Reserves, and I'm not certain he would be subject to the UCMJ. JAG can advise you.
You should consider determining why he is missing drill before you choose a course of action (has he moved too far, lost transportation, family issues, job told him they will fire him, etc.)

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 6 at 2019 9:50 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 21:50:08 -0500

1LT Private RallyPoint Member unless you trumped up something against him, they did it to themselves. Now you have no choice but to respond. They've throw it in your face.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2019 11:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 23:25:50 -0500

Everyone will tell you to take the rank, that you are in the right.
They're not wrong. You're completely in the right.

Leadership is rarely about being right.

I would refer you to the recent RAND study that showed that leaders who were fast trackers had lower rates of retention and higher rates of subordinate misconduct and discharge. I interpret this as more experienced leaders have more tools in their toolbox.

Does it get easier to discipline? No, not really. Not unless you become disconnected from your Soldiers. As Sun Tzu said, "Regard your Soldiers as your children and they will follow you into the deepest valley. Look upon them as your own beloved sons and they will stand by you even unto death".
Discipline is a reactive situation. Caring is proactive. Obviously, you can't save everyone from themselves, which is why it hurts.