Does being an NCO automatically make you a leader?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:37:07 -0400

My opinion is a resounding NO. I think the Army's position on this matter is flawed and counter productive. Leaders are either born from birth, people who you don't need to be told is in charge, you just know they are. Think Chesty Pulled type.

Then there are those that might not be ready to lead at that particular moment due to lack of knowledge and confidence, but are willing studies, vigilant pupils, voraciously consuming information and knowledge, modeling their movements and actions after their leaders. They eventually become some of the best leaders, as they are not only leaders, but knowledgeable leaders.

This has NOTHING to do with a promotion. Sure, in a perfect world, the natural order of things would suggest after a certain rank, one would have acquired the skills and confidence to lead, but unfortunately that is not always the case. Basing your(their) ability to lead should not be based rank, but based on a combination of knowledge and senior reviews, with input from their peers and subordinates. This might not be the "catch all" answer to the problem, like the Army's ACU pattern was(sarcasm) but it's better then just slapping rank on someone because they passed some board where they read off a creed and spewed random articles that were memorized for the sole purpose of being promoted. Your input and opinions please

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 28 at 2018 10:46 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:46:01 -0400

Working in Finance for a couple years showed me some were technical experts who could barely coordinate weapons draws and unlocking motor pool gates.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Mar 28 at 2018 10:46 PM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:46:17 -0400

I knew NCOs that couldn't find their way out of a wet paper bag, even with help. Rank does not make a leader.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 28 at 2018 10:50 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 22:50:56 -0400

We all know too many zebras to think that's the case...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2018 11:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 23:04:01 -0400

It automatically makes a person a pay grade higher than they were. Leadership is on the individual. I am a true believer that a person can in fact learn how to be a leader. Some are natural leaders as far as taking charge, and others are not and need leaders to teach them how to lead properly. I am naturally a follower and was very insecure and timid as a young soldier, but with age came knowledge and confidence in my abilities and I eventually proved myself at being quite a good leader. But I had the desire to lead because I was tired of not following what my mind told me was supposed to be done, so I started stepping up and realized, "hey, I'm not too bad at this." My leadership began to realize that I was changing and finally recommended me for the promotion board and I got promoted. Without a desire to lead, a person will not learn how to lead because they probably don't give a shit in the first place, PERIOD!

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Mar 28 at 2018 11:10 PM

SFC Christopher Taggart — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 23:10:15 -0400

I joined the military as an E-1 and have had many Sergeants that were both on either extreme...either “fantastic” and I would follow them anywhere OR were so “disjointed” they couldn’t lace up their own boots. My biggest fear was being the latter. I loved being a Specialist because I was never on the “blame” line for anything, until I became a Sergeant myself. I have learned over the years, no matter how much Leadership Training you get, some people just don’t have natural leadership ability. And as we know, yelling and screaming at the troops, just shows “you have lost control.” Today’s Sergeants are Managers. They manage personnel and materials, which are excellent skills that Civilian employers look for, when and if you can master them. Even in the civilian world, not all former military make good supervisors or managers. Veterans need to remember “civilians” are NOT troops!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2018 11:11 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 23:11:57 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Absolutely not. I knew NCOs that did not want to lead, but they liked the ran, and others who were piss poor leaders. In the civilian world, there are managers that should not be managing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2018 11:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 23:29:06 -0400

While being an NCO does not automatically make a Soldier a leader, it does automatically demonstrate that the Army expects them to be a leader. I have had several Junior NCOs who needed extra leadership opportunities to deal with in order to become leaders, and I've had a few that could lead as soon as they were pinned.

I believe that with the right mentorship, anyone can be a leader. I might not be the NCO who can provide that mentorship, but I'm not going to be the leader who doesn't do what I can to help a Soldier and the Army accomplish their mission

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 12:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 00:06:31 -0400

Brother you hit it right on the head. You are the type I was referring to when I talked the piece of some aren't yet ready or comfortable with leading due to lack of knowledge but are constantly looking, mirroring, asking, inquiring, etc.

Response by LTC Erik Spike Thiesmeyer, Sr. made Mar 29 at 2018 12:15 AM

LTC Erik Spike Thiesmeyer, Sr. — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 00:15:27 -0400

Bringing back the Specialist Ranks (SP5, SP6, SP7) is not a bad idea for this very reason. Popping on three chevrons does not make you a leader.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 29 at 2018 12:31 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 00:31:55 -0400

A good teacher is a leader. A good leader is a teacher. Teach your subordinates the skills they need and you'll be a good leader

Response by MSG Louis Alexander made Mar 29 at 2018 2:42 AM

MSG Louis Alexander — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 02:42:13 -0400

Like mentioned earlier, there are natural born leaders whose mere presence draws attention and a sense of positive energy. A person who knows what to do and how to do it by marginally convincing someone to carry out something without distraction, quarrel or question through dedication and pride. Than you have those who believe by being in a position automatically makes those under them serf’s and should fear the mere presence of the one holding the position. The one who is incapable of making rash decisions under any pressure regardless the magnitude. True leader’s listen, way the facts and acts accordingly. They take a genuine interest in those under their charge. They encourage, train and develop them to reach their highest potential. Poor leaders demoralize their charges through criticism and threat. Their only goal is to shine above all others regardless who they have to sacrifice in order to do so.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 3:55 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 03:55:45 -0400

I think the Army went in the wrong direction when they gave every E5 and above a green tab and then just did away with them. Not every NCO, like not every officer is a leader.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Mar 29 at 2018 7:49 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 07:49:31 -0400

While I do believe leaders are born and also nurtured and gown through education, exposure to good leadership and mentored I also believe that in a number of cases, good and great leaders are an undiscovered element in the ranks. They can only be exposed by the pressure of being thrust into positions of authority and responsibility. Some will fold but much more will rise to the occasion and surprise those around them. One of those ways while not perfect is through promotion, those that need that extra push to discover what they are capable of may need that position that only promotion can provide. Keeping in mind that it seems we also promote many to an even greater level of incompetence as well. This is why Promotion boards both in person and packet review need to be taken seriously or we risk weakening the NCO corp, creating monsters and damaging morale in the ranks. These many years later I can say I created 3 monsters in the corp through trial an error, two self corrected and one I took care of early in his rein of terror. I assisted many fin young Junior enlisted and senior enlisted up the ladder and they are great leaders that they did became by themselves with just a little push by kicking them in the ass. If we police our own we can limit damage and create an NCO Corp that will lead and mentor our replacements to keep it going and get the mission done while not making toxic leadership in our ranks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 8:09 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 08:09:08 -0400

No I have seen some very bad leaders that were NCO's and very good Privates with leadership abilities. To be a leader is putting yourself above others, doing whats right and care and concern to Soldiers around you. Leaders aren't born their made, never be afraid to step forward and always instill training when ever possible. If you don't have the right answer then find someone that does. Never leave an Officer or another Soldier hanging and always ensure the mission is completed before walking away. You must be thick skinned and never look at race, religion or sexuality. A Soldier will always be a Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 9:04 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:04:46 -0400

Well it definitely can't be taught like the Army tries to do with their "Leadership" courses.

Response by SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez made Mar 29 at 2018 9:57 AM

SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 09:57:59 -0400

Ok, I know I wasn't be the best leader in the Army or in my career field...yes, I have lost control at times dealing with some individuals. I'll can admit to that. But, it wasn't until I became an instructor in AIT, as we Army folks call it when I actually got the point where you have to provide the right "push" or motivation to make others follow you. And one of the things I learned over my years in the Army was that not to make others do what you haven't done yourself. When you do that, you leave a positive impression of yourself. I had Soldiers come to me after a long night mission and tell me, "damn SSG Hernandez, you just did more in a single night than this other SSG ever did in six months". To me, those are the individuals that will follow you and respect you. Now, I didn't do those things to seek their respect, I did those things because I really liked been a combat cameraman...that's who I was and still am til this date. Rank is just a rank and little more pay, but can you make your Soldiers follow you and seek your knowledge...that's a leader to me.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Mar 29 at 2018 10:01 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 10:01:55 -0400

NCOs? Hell, being a General doesn't make you a leader; it just puts you in a leadership position. There is a difference.

Response by COL William Oseles made Mar 29 at 2018 4:17 PM

COL William Oseles — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:17:02 -0400

Interesting, the lead in to the story about the Army uses a Marine DI, not an Army one.

Response by Cpl Thomas Newcomb made Mar 29 at 2018 9:35 PM

Cpl Thomas Newcomb — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 21:35:50 -0400

We've all had bad a NCO or two, and have seen guys that have stayed in longer than their expiration date. I turned down a promotion 6 months before i got out because it may have taken a boat space away from a fellow marine and i didnt want to be a section nco that had to be looked too by four or five tracks when i wasnt going to go on that pump and was getting out.. I was fine as an AAV vehicle commander but i was gonna eas before the company left. My platoon commander and gunny understood what i was doing and supported my decision. They were stand up guys and understood they were not gonna talk me back in, i helped groom my replacement time marched on. He turned out to be pretty bad ass.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Mar 29 at 2018 9:42 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 21:42:40 -0400

Of course not. . You get promoted to E4 on time unless you're a screw up, from there on its merit. As an E4 I did my job that's it, if I was an 03 it might be different though.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 11:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 23:46:09 -0400

Well the answer isnt SSD Or any other online class. Only hands on involved training fixes poor leadership. If senior NCOS aren't tasking,
Mentoring and evaluating new E-5s then the failure is on them. This is not a personal responsibility, you share it with leadership. You only know what you know, train to lead, lead to fight.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2018 10:31 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:31:56 -0400

Is like saying does Cooking lunch makes you a Chef/Culinary expert....Not trying to be a Dick but simple way to put it. I seen SPC with more leadership skills than SFC's.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Apr 4 at 2018 10:58 AM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:58:47 -0400

It SHOULD, but not always the case!

Response by CWO2 James Mathews made May 20 at 2018 3:46 PM

CWO2 James Mathews — Sun, 20 May 2018 15:46:54 -0400

My Naval experience was somewhat different. I was a Leading Seaman over 5 men for a deck force crew, on an old WWII submarine. This position was provided to me by my skills with "Marlinspike," only! Later, when the Chief that was my boss retired, I was continued as Leading Seaman because we were short of crew members. The work got done, and slowly from experience with some of the Chiefs and First class PO's aboard, I began to "absorb" some of their leadership qualities, firmness, patience, and understanding, which were major factors in this unofficial leadership education. Still later when I was made a 3rd Class PO and was utilized as a Shore Patrol, and then as a Prisoner Escort, all these were lessons to me. As I new PO I was given duties long neglected by some of the older POs and from that learned quite a bit about Supply, Ordnance, and from my earlier experience as a leading seaman, and some study, all about rigging on a naval ship rigging. B the time I reached the position of 2nd class, I was put in charge of the torpedo loading crew, and following my advanced torpedo school training I was made a 1st Class PO and was assigned to a submarine, as the Forward Torpedo Room, as the Senior TM. I thought myself well prepared for this, due to previous experience, but found instead a new set of problems never before encountered, As I advanced through the ranks and duties from 1st Class PO to Chief, then to Senior Chief, Master Chief, Warrant and Senior Warrant, Division Officer, Officer of the Deck Underway, and finally Command Duty Officer, I found a list of duties at each rank and position new and puzzling. Each one I needed to work out always using a Leadership Handbook and my association with trusted and admired seniors. When I left the Navy, I found that what I had learned about leadership in the service far outstripped any, but a very few that I encountered in civilian life in both education and ordnance/ ship construction. So I enjoyed a steady elevation in my civilian job responsibilities with no further concerns until my final retirement. During my period of military reenactment, I found my own technical group, recruited suitable members, used my leadership skills to a great advantage, and when I retired from active field reenactment, due to medical concerns, the unit has now continued and gotten even stronger due to the gentleman I selected to take my place a Unit Commander. I am satisfied that my Leadership learning instructions from watching my superiors saw me through the Naval Service successfully, and I salute those numerous individuals who unknowingly taught me the lessons that I so badly needed!!!

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Aug 4 at 2020 11:46 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 11:46:41 -0400

No, but big Army thinks so. That was excuse for getting rid of Specialists above SP4. Everyone is a leader. Everyone is not and removed a whole flock of soldiers from fatigue details and necessitated turning over a lot of jobs to DACs or contractors.

Response by Sgt Leon Hoskins made Aug 31 at 2022 8:22 PM

Sgt Leon Hoskins — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 20:22:34 -0400

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Aug 16 at 2023 2:12 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Wed, 16 Aug 2023 14:12:34 -0400

No, because the Army has done away with Specialists above SP4E4. So everyone above that is an NCO, whether a leader or not.