SGT Sam Decker 1535041 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Ok, so in my reserve platoon, one of the squad leaders is a SPC. He&#39;s prior active duty, been deployed, and is overall squared away. He had to do an on the spot correction on another SPC in his squad. She immediately went on the defensive and just offering excuses. The SQL kept cool and told her to stop and just listen. Instead she told him that if he &quot;came with an attitude&quot; she&#39;d give one right back. That&#39;s when he&#39;d apparently had enough and told her to get at parade rest and asked another SQL (who was a SGT) over as a witness. The Soldier then said she doesn&#39;t have to stand at parade rest because they&#39;re the same rank. That&#39;s when I walked away. Now, I&#39;ve seen this kind of situation before. It&#39;s always been my understanding that the SQL, despite being the same rank, had delegated authority and was within that authority to lock a Soldier up. However, I&#39;ve looked through AR 600-20 &amp; 600-25 and I can&#39;t find specific paragraphs to support or discredit that. Can anyone shed some light? 2016-05-16T23:09:17-04:00 SGT Sam Decker 1535041

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Ok, so in my reserve platoon, one of the squad leaders is a SPC. He&#39;s prior active duty, been deployed, and is overall squared away. He had to do an on the spot correction on another SPC in his squad. She immediately went on the defensive and just offering excuses. The SQL kept cool and told her to stop and just listen. Instead she told him that if he &quot;came with an attitude&quot; she&#39;d give one right back. That&#39;s when he&#39;d apparently had enough and told her to get at parade rest and asked another SQL (who was a SGT) over as a witness. The Soldier then said she doesn&#39;t have to stand at parade rest because they&#39;re the same rank. That&#39;s when I walked away. Now, I&#39;ve seen this kind of situation before. It&#39;s always been my understanding that the SQL, despite being the same rank, had delegated authority and was within that authority to lock a Soldier up. However, I&#39;ve looked through AR 600-20 &amp; 600-25 and I can&#39;t find specific paragraphs to support or discredit that. Can anyone shed some light?

2016-05-16T23:09:17-04:00 2016-05-16T23:09:17-04:00 SGM Matthew Quick 1535051

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes...it's the position.

2016-05-16T23:11:58-04:00 2016-05-16T23:11:58-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1535054

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>if a SPC is put in a leadership role and has passed the board they should get promoted to CPL if not that other SPC has to stand at Parade rest because the other has been given the authority of leadership. Some will argue with this but I have been in charge of SGTs because they lost there privilege when I was a SPC. Of course that was the old army.

2016-05-16T23:13:26-04:00 2016-05-16T23:13:26-04:00 Cpl Rc Layne 1535065

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It's the position. And even with two of equal rank, they are only truly equal if they were promoted the same day and time. Just like whose the oldest twin.

2016-05-16T23:16:19-04:00 2016-05-16T23:16:19-04:00 SSG Leo Bell 1535068

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>That's a very good question. I had that happen way back when when I was and E4 and was in charge of a squad. I had E3 females and I had just came from an artillery unit so I didn't know how to act when she gave me attitude and mouthed off so I went to my SFC and she did on the spot correction with here, that next week I was pinned SGT anyway.

2016-05-16T23:17:26-04:00 2016-05-16T23:17:26-04:00 SSG Roger Ayscue 1535079

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>What is that "If you come with attitude" toward her squad leader? That would have been a week of "School of the Soldier" in my day. But this is the kinder, gentler Army. I would bet she has hair and nails that are just barely on the line of being acceptable, but only if you squint real real hard at the regulation.<br />The unit should make this Specialist a Corporal, just to prevent this. They should also make that other Specialist a Private First Class for a couple months.

2016-05-16T23:20:49-04:00 2016-05-16T23:20:49-04:00 CW4(P) Detrottus Thomas 1535093

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The Squad Leader is holding a leadership position and therefore is entitled to a certain level of respect. The members of that squad should treat that SPC Squad Leader with same level of respect that they would if he/she were a Noncommissioned Officer. If the squad member is displaying insubordination towards the Squad Leader then that Soldier should be handled accordingly using the NCO Support Channel and the Chain of Command as necessary. In most if not all instances where rank is equal, position held trumps said rank. I could go on and on but I think you get my drift. The Squad Leader is in charge of their squad and as long as he/she aren't issuing orders that unethical, immoral or illegal, the members of that squad are expected to follow those orders, even if those orders include the words PARADE REST or AT EASE!

2016-05-16T23:29:33-04:00 2016-05-16T23:29:33-04:00 CPT Mark Gonzalez 1535098

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Been similar posts with this exact question, but it is the position and not the rank. If a SFC was to mouth off to another SFC who was acting as a 1SG it would end badly. Same thing if an E-5 team leader didn't like his E-5 squad leader. You are always going to have personnel filling positions of higher levels than their grade. Their orders are lawful based on their position and the fact that the subordinate knows the position they hold.

2016-05-16T23:32:21-04:00 2016-05-16T23:32:21-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1535145

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Absafrickenlootly. sure it's rank against rank but the real thing you need to be looking at here is position. As an E5 instructor, I had E6s and E7s standing at parade rest for me. Did I like it? No. It was weird. Why? Even though they outranked me, I was in the position of authority and had position over them. Same thing goes here. That SPC squad leader has airport over that SPC and thus parade rest should be assumed

2016-05-16T23:53:23-04:00 2016-05-16T23:53:23-04:00 SGM Steve Wettstein 1535220

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Because the SPC SL is in a SSG position the SPC squad member should because of the duty position of the SL.

2016-05-17T00:47:32-04:00 2016-05-17T00:47:32-04:00 SN Greg Wright 1535345

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>On Navy ships, an 0-4 (Lieutenant Commander), 0-5 (commander) or 0-6 (Captain) is the CAPTAIN of a given vessel. God help an officer that goes onto a destroyer who's captain is an 0-5, and tries to pull rank at 0-6, IF they're not in the CoC. EVERY commander of a vessel, is referred to as 'Captain'. Even if, as sometimes happens, they are ENLISTED. And that person has ABSOLUTE authority. Period. I can't imagine that the Army should be different.<br /><br />Fun fact: ANY officer, of any rank, wishing to board a Navy ship, will find themselves requesting permission, AND SALUTING FIRST, an officer of the deck who has GREAT chances of being enlisted. And, that OOD will have absolute authority over the requesting officer. <br /><br />See how life sometimes throws you a curve?

2016-05-17T02:21:24-04:00 2016-05-17T02:21:24-04:00 CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member 1535353

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>They have the same grade, not rank. Date of rank provides seniority. He must be minimum of a CP to do the parade rest thing. On the back of your ca you will see tiers. NCOes are tier 2. Officers are Tier 3. This is Geneva convention for pow stuff but it basically delineates workers, supervisors and administrators.<br /><br />Calling an NCO over was the right move in this he said she said army. He should've been there from the instant attitude was involved. Parade rest was not required but obedience was.

2016-05-17T02:42:44-04:00 2016-05-17T02:42:44-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 1535374

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No, the subordinate doesn't have to stand at PATADE REST! However, the subordinate must respect the authority given as if he or she is outranked or outranks. Whomever gave the authority to the SQL is looked at as the senior advisor son this case. Therefore they must take orders as such....

2016-05-17T04:26:29-04:00 2016-05-17T04:26:29-04:00 SSG Vik Polivka 1535470

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes, because of their position. We had a PSG that was a SSG, and a Squad Leader (SSG) stood at parade rest for him. While we were deployed, they got into an argument in formation, and the PSG had him do push ups. Afterwards I asked the Squad Leader if he really had to, I mean they're the same rank. He said, yeah, but he's the PSG.<br /><br />I don't know off the top of my head which regulation covers it, but I think the right answer is yes, due to positional authority. Anything else undermines their leadership.

2016-05-17T07:20:27-04:00 2016-05-17T07:20:27-04:00 SPC Private RallyPoint Member 1535661

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>im a specialist(P) and I have been in charge of other specialist. Personally I wouldn't try to force some on to go to parade rest for me but with that being said there are no actors in the army. If some one is appointed to be a squad leader you should give him the respect as if he where an NCO.

2016-05-17T08:59:49-04:00 2016-05-17T08:59:49-04:00 SSG(P) Timme Jones 1535839

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes, the SPC squad leader holds a higher position then you. I had this happen it me too when I was a SPC squad leader for 6 months, my other leaders gave a brief to the platoon saying to treat me like an NCO due to the position.

2016-05-17T09:40:30-04:00 2016-05-17T09:40:30-04:00 SGT David T. 1536025

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The way it was described to me is that there is no inherent obligation to go to parade rest for someone of equal rank absent any orders to do so. However, if a NCO or even that SPC issues an order to do so, then it becomes a lawful order.

2016-05-17T10:16:54-04:00 2016-05-17T10:16:54-04:00 SFC Thomas Howes 1536080

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>When I was a platoon sgt if my sql were not sgt I made them cpl that way they were looked at as leaders

2016-05-17T10:27:21-04:00 2016-05-17T10:27:21-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 1536352

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It&#39;s certainly the position. Sadly, when you&#39;re the same rank as a SPC regardless of your DOR or your P status, you will be spoken to as a regular SPC (in my experience). The army is just different now, even since I&#39;ve been in the last 4 years. As a SPC(P), I don&#39;t get any kind of authority over my peers in my shop regardless of the lower rank or not.

2016-05-17T11:33:04-04:00 2016-05-17T11:33:04-04:00 MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P 1536730

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>From an AF guy perspective... I would think the SQL is well justified simply by virtue of the leadership position to which he has been appointed. Secondly, once the SGT was involved, she should have assumed parade rest for him if nothing else. Providing she still failed to demonstrate the appropriate military bearing, respect for authority, etc. the paperwork trail should have begun immediately.

2016-05-17T13:06:01-04:00 2016-05-17T13:06:01-04:00 SSG Dale Sibble 1537169

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Doesn't matter what rank he was if he is right they have the right to correct you and someone higher see he can do the job or they wouldn't put him in charge of a squad

2016-05-17T15:08:57-04:00 2016-05-17T15:08:57-04:00 SSG Don Maggart 1537286

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No Sir They Stand as Equals.... I've had Officers try to teach me FDC Procedure which was my job in addition to Mortar Gunnery Rank Means Dip Lean into it Suckers...MilitantCrip The Army has Entrusted in both the same Rank and Privileges... fix the Root Cause not the Branch...

2016-05-17T15:41:08-04:00 2016-05-17T15:41:08-04:00 SSG Don Maggart 1537314

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No Sir They Stand as Equals.... I've had Officers try to teach me FDC Procedure which was my job in addition to Mortar Gunnery Rank Means Dip Lean into it Suckers...MilitantCrip The Army has Entrusted in both the same Rank and Privileges... fix the Root Cause not the Branch...

2016-05-17T15:48:14-04:00 2016-05-17T15:48:14-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1537381

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>That was a good question.

2016-05-17T16:06:33-04:00 2016-05-17T16:06:33-04:00 MSG Pedro Valentin 1538236

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Not knowing the circumstances which drove a PLT LDR or PLT SGT to have an SPC as a squad leader I will say that when two service members are of the same rank it could be a taxing situation but, when one is placed in charge of a Squad or Platoon, then the one Senior in rank (DOR) should be the one in charge. At, times that is not the case due to other circumstances that will dictate otherwise. In this case the SQL from what I gathered was made the SQL by the PLT Leader or PLT SGT and if this is the case then the SPC must adhere to military policies and regulations. Now to avoid this type of situations the SPC should have been awarded "orders" to the rank of Corporal which makes the soldier an NCO, Leader, and the SPC would have no grounds to ignore an order from his / her SQL. The company commander and 1SG should have addressed this with the PLT Leader or PLT SGT.

2016-05-17T21:04:03-04:00 2016-05-17T21:04:03-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1538458

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Quick and straight forward; 1. The subordinate demonstrated a discourteous behaviour towards the squad Leader and refused to follow instructions. If the Senior Specialist is in fact the Square Leader, he or she should write up a counseling with a detailed plan of action to remedy the infractions. Plan of action fails; recommendation for UCMJ and who ever appointed the Squad Leader must support the reccomendation.

2016-05-17T22:15:42-04:00 2016-05-17T22:15:42-04:00 SFC Mike Edwards 1538482

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>As a leader of the squad, yes she do. The commander and leaders of the unit have the senior ranking leader that position of their authority. You might not find it written like that in the regulation, but if push comes to shove, the SPC that is in the higher position will win.

2016-05-17T22:22:08-04:00 2016-05-17T22:22:08-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1538606

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes because he or she is in a leadership position

2016-05-17T23:26:48-04:00 2016-05-17T23:26:48-04:00 SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder 1539749

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes. Absolutely. A squad leader in the Army is a position for a SSG/E-6. The specialist squad leader is filling a position well above his rank and subordinates use the proper customs and courtesies the o address him as such.

2016-05-18T11:54:44-04:00 2016-05-18T11:54:44-04:00 SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder 1539808

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'm looking over the Punitive Articles of the UCMJ and there are quite a few articles that she can be punished under. All the information can be found here: <br /><a target="_blank" href="http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm.htm">http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm.htm</a><br />Make sure that in the Key Points of Discussion after you put in what you need to that you insert a "magic bullet" and include a plan of action that she must complete some sort of corrective remedial training. Otherwise when it goes up for recommendation for Article 15 proceedings under the UCMJ, it will be kicked back. <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/064/527/qrc/55728345.jpg?1463587530"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http:// http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm.htm">Military Offenses That Will Get You Court Martialed</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">Articles 77 through 134 of the UCMJ are known as the &amp;quot;punitive articles,&amp;quot; -- that is, specific offenses which, if violated, can result in punishment by court-martial.</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div>

2016-05-18T12:13:01-04:00 2016-05-18T12:13:01-04:00 SSG Don Maggart 1540692

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I got My Provo Corporal Stripes at 17 until I had 1 year in grade as a PFC 3 years JROTC 1 year ROTC because someone has an appointment meet me in the Gorilla Pit... B 2-2-6 B Actual out

2016-05-18T17:42:51-04:00 2016-05-18T17:42:51-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 1541633

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>When I was a SPC I was constantly around senior NCO's and I have on occasion had to put certain individuals at parade rest. It's not about the rank it's about the respect you give and the authority you command. it's a two way street.

2016-05-19T01:52:15-04:00 2016-05-19T01:52:15-04:00 CW5 Andrew J. Foreman 1541961

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Rank and position give authority in the military. As such someone is a leadership position should be respected. However, the command is failing this squad and should either place a SGT in the position or laterally promote the SPC to CPL. That being said I have never heard of junior enlisted personnel standing at parade rest for each other, that is reserved for NCOs, that is why if the command made the SPC a CPL this would not be an issue any longer.

2016-05-19T08:44:49-04:00 2016-05-19T08:44:49-04:00 CPT Kurk Harris 1543060

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>He is in a position of authority. Specifically, as a SL he is in her Chain of Command. He has every right to order her to the position of parade rest. It is a drill command and a lawful order. Her actions constituted insubordination. He should counsel her, and assign her corrective actions. He should also report this behavior up the chain of command to ensure there is visibility from above. If her insolence continues she should be recommended for NJP (Article 15) Her behavior can become a cancer and degrade discipline throughout the unit if allowed to continue. All of this is predicated upon the amount of support he receives from the rest of the CoC. Without support he is shouting in the wilderness.

2016-05-19T13:43:23-04:00 2016-05-19T13:43:23-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 1545168

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No.

2016-05-20T09:18:54-04:00 2016-05-20T09:18:54-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 1545276

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I agree that she should have locked it up for her squad leader, same rank or not. Regulations aside, it's basic discipline and military bearing. She obviously has a bad attitude and probably shouldn't have been allowed to graduate basic training. That being said, your unit whether you like it or not might be fostering such behavior by not enforcing standards and discipline regularly and fairly. I say that changes need to be made in your unit but the change has to come from higher up and then ruthlessly enforced at all levels of leadership. With punishments clearly defined for failing to obey. I can understand how it might be difficult to shake off the civilian mindset when you show up for drill but your soldiers need to remember that being a soldier is a way of life that we live 24/7. On or off duty, regardless of what component we are in.

2016-05-20T09:55:46-04:00 2016-05-20T09:55:46-04:00 SFC Matthew Mason 1610895

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>She should be counseled immediately for disrespect. It is the position, not the rank. Same as an E7 in a 1SGs position.

2016-06-08T20:31:07-04:00 2016-06-08T20:31:07-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 1755431

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The female specialist was wrong. The senior spec is in a command position. Yes, if he gave her an order as he is authorized by rank and authority, she has to or should listen to the SPC in charge. She doesn't have to like it, but she has to comply or it could get ugly if the issue is reviewed from a UCMJ aspect. I like how he remained calm and gave her a little more rope to get it right.

2016-07-27T16:10:43-04:00 2016-07-27T16:10:43-04:00 SFC Daniel McIntire 1900814

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes, by virtue of position.

2016-09-17T07:21:38-04:00 2016-09-17T07:21:38-04:00 Cpl Rc Layne 2620752

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Seniority is by date of rank and position.

2017-06-03T16:37:54-04:00 2017-06-03T16:37:54-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 4344043

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have personally seen the following... a CPT (company commander of a student detachment) tell a MAJ (attending a school and having an issue) that the MAJ (who lost his military bearing) that the MAJ should not confuse his rank with the CPT’s position. The CPT did his very best to contain the MAJ’s outburst and ended up having call the MP’s. Ultimately the MAJ was charged with threatening his commander... the CPT.<br />So, yes... position and authority are linked. To the point that a lesser rank can have legal authority over a senior ranking officer.

2019-02-05T18:07:41-05:00 2019-02-05T18:07:41-05:00 2016-05-16T23:09:17-04:00