Does a SM have to do corrective training if the NCO failed Leadership Responsibilities?

SGT Ronnie Warford — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:29:48 -0400

Response by SGT Ronnie Warford made Jul 30 at 2016 11:30 AM

SGT Ronnie Warford — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:30:37 -0400

As in they didn't carry out their leadership responsibility written on the counseling?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 3:43 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 15:43:24 -0400

I'd like to see how well that works out for that soldier, lol.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jul 31 at 2016 9:01 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:01:36 -0400

SGT Ronnie Warford As MAJ Carl Ballinger suggests more info eg a hypothetical example of your situation would give the folks on RP more to come up with answers. SGT(P) Lauren Manuel gave excellent insights from a leadership perspective and could probably give a real-life example with more details to consider.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 9:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:12:44 -0400

If that NCO is not fulfilling their leadership responsibilities you take it higher. That's why we have the NCO support channel

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Jul 31 at 2016 8:42 PM

CW2 Stephen Pate — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 20:42:08 -0400

Remember that your leadership isn't perfect, and neither are you. They may be trying to get something accomplished that you don't understand or just pushing down something from the top, and if you don't fall in line it's their job to correct that. I'm not saying this person you speak of was right, just remember that there is a bigger picture to think of, and no, it isn't ok to decide on your own what orders to listen to and which ones to ignore. Unfortunately those who think that this is ok will only learn the hard way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 7:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 07:47:25 -0400

A couple of questions.
1. What was the corrective training and why was the Soldier given the corrective training
2. How exactly did the NCO fail in their leadership responsibilities?
3. Was the NCO then counseled on their failure and talked do by the Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant about a possible reduction board?
4. Who told the Soldier that they don't have to perform the corrective training when the NCO fails their leadership responsibilities, a Legal officer or a barracks lawyer?

Response by 1SG Rodney Simpson made Aug 2 at 2016 8:15 AM

1SG Rodney Simpson — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 08:15:25 -0400

Beat your face!

Response by SGT Mark Collins made Aug 2 at 2016 11:47 AM

SGT Mark Collins — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 11:47:30 -0400

Yes the service member and the NCO, should both do corrective training

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Aug 2 at 2016 12:49 PM

SFC John Fourquet — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 12:49:19 -0400

Sounds like you know you screwed up and you are looking for an excuse to avoid the consequences for your screw up. The short answer is yes. So suck it up and learn from it.

Response by SSG Garry Livesay made Aug 2 at 2016 1:45 PM

SSG Garry Livesay — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 13:45:32 -0400

An NCO is never wrong he is misinform

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Aug 2 at 2016 2:17 PM

1SG Michael Farrell — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 14:17:02 -0400

Agree with the Major. My thought is that there are some separate issues here, and while the services are a lot more intrinsically fair than civilian employers, odds are that the corrective training will be over and done long before the NCO issue is resolved. There's also a school of thought that the failure of the follower is always the failure of the leader; always is a bad word except for scientific fact, but there's truth to that as well. More info would help...

Response by MSG Biran Colwell made Aug 3 at 2016 1:52 AM

MSG Biran Colwell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 01:52:42 -0400

If an NCO can't preform his duties , protect and disaplin his soldiers to standards , he the Non Comission Officer needs better training or not be an NCO. Soldiers learn to take our place as they and we advance. That is why we have training , counseling, AAR'S. The better we are the better a soldier gets.

Response by SSG Robert Ferguson made Aug 3 at 2016 8:51 AM

SSG Robert Ferguson — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 08:51:27 -0400

This is and has always been a touchy subject when it comes to how to "retrain" or "redirect" the thinking of any Soldier who has done wrong... Hence... "Corrective Training". First of all, to effectively answer your question, we need more information. What were the circumstances? What we're the actions of the Soldier? What is considered the failure of the leadership? What was the corrective training imposed?
I remember when I came into the Army, there was a program called, " S. O. S.", "School of Soldier". This was where when a Soldier was in violation to Army Regulations and received an AR 15, they went there for retraining. This was at the Battalion level and it was the CSM's program. And he had at least 4 NCOs in charge who were DS. The leadership of the Soldier did not have any control or even had dealings over the Soldier until the time was fulfilled. Now-in-days, when a Soldier fails, the entire leadership is also given corrective training along with that Soldier. This gives the message that overall leadership cannot do right. So, instead of possing responsibility to who has committed the offense and holding him accountable, leadership is 100% to blame. This is why Soldiers are getting a way with a lot more these days.
I remember a time when a Soldier in my unit received a DUI. The Soldier received an AR 15 for the offense but his NCO was up for punishment as well. As a leader, you cannot be with your Soldiers 24/7, unless you are deployed. In Garrison, Soldiers will do what they want. And they know this. And they also know that their leadership will receive much, if not all the blame for what was done. And I have seen outstanding leaders lose their motivation in serving all because they received negative support in trying to correct the Soldiers and leading. What must happen is that Senior leadership must get away from blaming leaders of a Soldier and place the blame and responsibility on the Soldier who committed the crime. And let the punishment for the crime.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Aug 3 at 2016 9:35 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:35:05 -0400

If I ask a senior NCO gave SM corrective training w/o a counseling statement, I would say I was giving the SM a chance. Counseling statements stay on file for up to a year, are to be considered for both Positive and negative personal actions. So a statement could stop school slots, promotion, awards,etc.. If SM fails to do CT, then I would add Failure to follow orders to original sin. SM would then have the choice between Article 15 or court-martial. When I retired Article 15 was a career/retention stopper. Note barracks lawyers don't last long in the service.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Aug 4 at 2016 12:40 PM

SFC Byron Perry — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 12:40:21 -0400

If they don't aren't they disobeying an order?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 1:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 13:54:44 -0400

My 2 cents.

As far as corrective training, the short answer is "yes". As long as it is neither illegal, nor immoral, it would constitute a lawful order.

Fulfilling leadership responsibilities is a separate issue. However, there are certain instances (which you have not defined in your question), which may negate the corrective training. A quick example would be a Soldier missing an early formation, but the leader failed to ensure the Soldier was aware of the formation in the first place.

Everything is a case-by-case basis and if falls into a "gray area" category, then speaking with a higher member of your NCO support channel would be my best advice.

Response by SSG Dale London made Aug 21 at 2016 10:24 PM

SSG Dale London — Sun, 21 Aug 2016 22:24:36 -0400

Since when did someone else's f-up make you f-up okay? It seems you misunderstand the purpose of corrective training. It is not there to make your life miserable (although that is often one of the side-effects).It is there to correct some flaw or deficit in a soldier's training with the sole aim of making that soldier a better soldier.
If you're trying to duck out of corrective training, that seems like even more evidence for the need of it.