Does a 300 on a APFT make you a better Soldier or Leader?

1SG Alan Bailey — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:43:29 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 11:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:53:29 -0400

No, it is simply one component of several that combine to make a capable and effective soldier/leader. It may be an indicator of a soldiers' dedication and determination, that they strive for achievement. If that soldier shows the same attitude towards BRM, PMCS, MOS skills, daily performance, etc., then odds are good that you have a solid individual who will go far.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 12:06 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 12:06:50 -0400

No, but it's an indicator. I'll paste my comment from below here to provide a better answer...

The bottom line is that a 300 isn't hard to achieve at all. Being able to get a 300 on the APFT does not make you an athalete. Frankly, if all you can do is the minimum, that's pretty damned sorry. That is also an indicator. The human body is AMAZING. The more pain you inflict on it, the more you stress it, the more you beat it down...the better, harder, faster, and stronger it becomes. If you have someone who has a 300 (or more on the extended scale), then you have someone who is willing to push their body until it hurts. You have someone who has done that for a long time and have never accepted anything less than perfection. You have someone that has sacrificed and given of themselves for a goal. It's just PT, right? That's what some people will tell you. Those are usually the same people who tell you that winning isn't everything...I got news for you...in this business, winning is everything...and those people are making an excuse for losing. It's an indicator. So is someone who can only do the minimum. IF that person had pushed a little harder in training, they would have been 10 points higher. Then the next time...THEY SHOULDNT BE JUST TEN POINTS ABOVE THE MINIMUM. They should have driven themselves through the pain and have improved...continue this until you reach 300. It ain't rocket-surgery. It's just painful...and pain is good for you. If you have the type that actually gets up after doing the minimum...you need to get that person out of your unit as soon as humanly possible, because you have a different kind of loser there. You have someone that is capable of doing more and improving, but purposely is a lazy SOB, and that's almost worse tha someone who is avoiding the hard work of making themselves better. It's an indicator. Just like an SAT for college. Having a good SAT doesn't mean you are going to do well in college, but it is an indicator of potential.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 16 at 2014 1:13 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:13:11 -0400

No, it doesn't, but the things that DO make you a good leader are largely intangible, and thus really difficult to quantify.

We can't promote people based off of zero criteria, so, when in doubt, go with something that produces quantifiable numbers, whether they are meaningful or not.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 1:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:18:54 -0400

MSG Bailey To me if you are a natural athlete and you get 300's with no effort, it does not impress me at all In the other hand, if you score a 210 for example, you set a 300 as a goal and work your way up to a it, that will tell me a lot about the person and their character, discipline, dedication etc

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 1:42 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:42:21 -0400

I agree to the point of if I can't score a 300 on my APFT I probably shouldn't expect my soldiers to be able to do the same. That said there is so much more to being a soldier and a leader than being able to score a 300. Not everyone is going to be a PT stud and some work hard to maintain their current scores. I'll be honest I cannot score a 300 on my APFT....never did never will. None the less I'm the one running with my soldiers that have failed PT tests and my general answer to them is if you are behind me you are WRONG...after a month of me they will pass a PT test and generally speaking they don't want to spend that much time with me again and do what it takes to maintian and improve. I think an APFT score is nothing more than something tabgible for people to rate us by....and truly we can't be completly out of shape and expect to defend the nation!

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 16 at 2014 1:43 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:43:15 -0400

I rarely answer a question with a question but here it goes.  Does making a 150 on a APFT make you a worse Soldier or Leader?  Most would argue that if you failed an APFT then you would even lose your leadership position.<div>I think if the answer is yes for one then it's yes for both.  The justification would be the same.</div>

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 16 at 2014 1:47 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:47:02 -0400

Your APFT score is in no way a measuring stick for your ability to lead troops into battle.  Nor is it an indicator on how you will perform mentally when facing different situations.  While it does tell me that you can do X number of push ups and sit ups and run 2 miles in a certain amount of time, that information is pretty much useless when bullets are flying over your head and your troops are looking toward you for motivation and direction.  

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 1:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:55:46 -0400

It doesn't make a a worse one.....so mathematically, yes.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Apr 16 at 2014 1:55 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:55:54 -0400

100% agree with SSgt Burns.
And no it does not.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Apr 16 at 2014 1:56 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:56:28 -0400

I stive to be the best at what I do, I get the average PT score, somewhere around 190 210. I have never been a pt stud, never will. Is a 300 unattainable, no but Don't really want one. There are other qualities that to me are more inportant. If you are passing the PT test, good PMCS, knowledgeable in your MOS, good at BMI/PMI with assigned weapon, good with land nav, can you function with a BFT. Training the soldiers is my main goal. There are very few who can tear down a Mark 19 or 50 cal proficiently in my guard unit. land nav is usually weak, proper BMI/PMI. those are use or lose skills that need to be worked on when ever needed.

If you are failing PT then yes it needs to be put in that extra is done, maybe on a one on one basis, team leader to team member or the whole squad maybe or just the team.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 2:24 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:24:50 -0400

No it does not. And this question all ways seems to come up. but at the end of the day it is still a bullet on your NCOER. And it does show that you take your own time to improve you self.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 16 at 2014 2:29 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:29:57 -0400

If it doesn't make you a better Soldier then why is it that it's one of the biggest determining factors in Soldier of the Month Boards?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 3:02 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:02:47 -0400

Its all about being a well rounded soldier, you got to have a good PT score, some college, do some volunteer work, lead and train Soldiers, make the commandants list, know your job, go to boards and you know...all of that good stuff.

Response by 1SG Alan Bailey made Apr 16 at 2014 4:07 PM

1SG Alan Bailey — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:07:08 -0400

WOW, was not expecting such responses. But all the input was great. I thought it would make a good discussion. I worked for a CSM and really judge all Soldiers on thier APFT, and would let you know that if your APFT score was not a 280 or higher and reflected on your NCOER your chances for selecting would be low. My arguement to that was antone and everyone could fluf thier score for that reason. I have always felt that your ability to do 100+ pushups and sit-ups and run like the wind did not make you a better leader than me. I believe me I have never been a PT STUD and never will be.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 4:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:13:21 -0400

Doesnt make you a better Soldier or Leader MSG, but at least we know you can stay in the Troop/Company/BN/BDE runs lol.

Its hard to motivate Soldiers when their first line, section sergeant and PSG fall out lol

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 4:46 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:46:29 -0400

MSG Bailey,

It is a tangible metric we can use to identify weakness or strength, both physically and mentally. It must be used with the whole person/leader concept.

VR,

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 4:55 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:55:28 -0400

Does a 300 make an individual a better soldier or leader? It depends, if you score 300 and your section/squad improves their APFT score by 40+ or higher then it does.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:44:16 -0400

Great APFT only means you're in better shape and you get an excellence block on your NCOER or OER. Oh...and you get a cool patch... Your actions make you a better Soldier or leader. I've seen "PT studs" fall apart under the pressures of work, while I've seen "borderline" Soldiers that can take charge of any situation that comes at them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:56 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:56:47 -0400

I just scored a 61 in each event on my last test, because I was forced to take a 2nd PT test in 3 days due to a grader F*** up. I needed a score during my last rating period to not have a referred OER. When I was in the best shape of my life, I scored a 244 with at least 80 in each category. I appreciate why the Army has a PT test, and there is no excuse for anyone not passing. However, I don't believe that being a PT stud or studette makes you a better Soldier or leader than another. I've known a lot of dirtbags who could score a 300.

Response by PFC Glen King made Apr 16 at 2014 6:00 PM

PFC Glen King — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:00:16 -0400

I think it does. It shows that you are doing your absolute best all the time. In the Ranger Regiment you better get a 300 or pretty close, period. Everyone can be a pt stud if they train enough for it. My first 2 mile run in basic was 18 min. I got it down to just over 10 min in 9 months. Always strive for the top.

Do you want to enter combat and just put in 2/3 of the effort? Do you want the person covering you to only put in 2/3 of their effort? Sorry if I offend anyone, I just think that you signed up to serve and should fulfill that oath. Doing your best at your job is filling that oath.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Apr 16 at 2014 7:30 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:30:54 -0400

Well since part of your job as a soldier requires you to be physically fit I would say yes but only partly. "I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient" that's the 3rd sentence of the second paragraph in the Army NCO creed. It doesn't say only technically proficient, or only tactically proficient. It maintains that both are required. Additionally, the word "remain" implies that we should already be proficient and we swear an oath to maintain that proficiency.

Although being in top physical condition definitely makes for positive movement on the tactical side of the house, it is only part of tactical proficiency. Additionally, it will make you a better soldier but not specifically a better leader. The leadership side would be to influence your subordinates to be in top physical condition. As one my prior commanders once told me "lead from the front, but not too far ahead".

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Apr 16 at 2014 7:59 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:59:11 -0400

No. I knew "Soldiers" who could pull a 300 on the APFT but couldn't find their ass with a GPS. 

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 16 at 2014 9:17 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:17:08 -0400

Yes...better than a Soldier not attaining the APFT Badge.

Additionally, it makes you a better leader if you can use that 300 as a 'platform' to help others achieve the same. If an NCO consistently achieves a 300 and their Soldiers are sub-240s (an arbitrary number), appears they are an ineffective leader...in the physical fitness category.

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Apr 16 at 2014 9:37 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:37:49 -0400

I think it's important to distinguish between something that helps make one a better leader and something that actually improves leadership skills and ability. A 300 APFT can help someone be a better leader by giving you credibility that a 180 APFT score cannot. Likewise, a 300 APFT score will not turn a poor leader into a good one simply because he or she excels at PT. It takes good leadership, coaching, mentoring, and an occasional swift kick in the fourth point of contact to do that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:40 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:40:56 -0400

A ton of people posting about Excellence in PT and work performance as if they are exclusive of each other.

People who can't score 90 points in each event always seem angry with those who can. Its disturbing. Can't we all just admit that people who can achieve PT excellence are remarkably good looking?

Before I get a whole bunch of down votes, I am just kidding! Sort of....

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 16 at 2014 10:21 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 22:21:23 -0400

MSG Bailey, Earning a 300 on an APFT means you exceeded the standard, and it should not be part of judging the content of someone's character or job performance.

Response by SFC Victor Serrano made Apr 16 at 2014 10:27 PM

SFC Victor Serrano — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 22:27:42 -0400

Of course it does not make him or her a better leader. It means you're a natural athlete and dedicated to physical training more then others.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 11:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 23:24:05 -0400

The one thing I learned from my leadership is this; Scoring 300s on PT is excellent as an NCO, Officer, and/or Soldier. However, at the same time, what are you doing to improve your Soldiers if you are a leader? As a leader, you can score 300s all day on every APFT you take. However, if your Soldiers are not up to part with this example you've set, then in a way you have failed as a leader. I say this because your Soldiers are a direct reflection of your leadership so if you are excellent at PT then your Soldiers should be as well with your guidance, motivation, and direction to them. I got it...Not everyone can score a 300. However, a 300 does not make you a better leader nor Soldier. Now if you identified where you lack in PT and improve yourself, or your Soldiers as a leader, and up their PT score while maintaining yours setting that example, then this is excellent leadership and/or Soldiering skills in my eyes.

I've seen great leaders and Soldiers that suck at PT but perform their job excellent, I've seen PT studs that can knock out 300s but suck as a leader and Soldier, and I've seen some suck at both while some succeed at both. In a way, it's all about perseverance and how well one determines his/her attributes in this topic.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 12:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 00:02:43 -0400

I have to say this. The Army (DA), when you first join only judges you on two things, APFT and weapon qualifications. As we move forward and gain responsibility we are judge by our leadership potential. Still as NCOs or Officers we are judged on our physical fitness. Do PT! Soldiers will judge you on it, strive to beat in it and brag about you because of it! Im not the best in PT. I have Soldiers that are better at it than me at PT( not that I will ever give them the satisfaction of knowing it). I work harder and teach them how to conduct PT with their subordinate Soldiers and then find a way to crush them at PT. Its the way of the world. PT isn't everything by any means but it is a great way to find out if a Soldier has the mental determination to fight on, the will power to attempt it, and the pride to not fall in front of his subordinates or peers. PT is more of an analysis tool than you think! We all know the guys that are bad at it and we see how the other Soldiers look at them. If you are a leader and you aren't good at it then you need to understand that you Soldiers are noticing. If you have good battles they will tell you the honest truth...... that they have heard them say it.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Apr 17 at 2014 5:13 AM

SSG William Sutter — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 05:13:22 -0400

No, I don't think so. I had some leaders who all they had was a 300. They couldn't lead to save thier lives. It is good to have a 300 don't get me wrong but it is more important to be a good leader than to be awesome at PT.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Apr 17 at 2014 6:55 AM

LTC Jason Strickland — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 06:55:35 -0400

It doesn't make you a better Soldier or leader, but it does demonstrate that you pride yourself in exceeding the standard. I used to tell my troops that PT is the only thing (training) we do every single day - so you might as well get really good at doing it!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 8:41 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:41:42 -0400

Does it make you a better soldier and leader? NO!! Although being fit and doing well on the APFT is an outstanding thing to do, it does not mean that you have what it takes to lead or follow. To be a leader does not mean that you can out run, out push and do more sit-ups then everyone else. A good leaders has qualities that have nothing to do with physical fitness. As a wounded Warrior I am sick and tired of the Profile Bashers that believe that if you do not max your PT test then you are a bad leader. There are alot of exercise freaks out there that can get the 300 but when it comes to leadership and guidence, if it doesn't have anything to do with fitness they are at a loss. Being a soldier and leader is about doing the right thing giving all you got and never quiting. We are not made the same, some people just cannot achieve that 300 no matter how hard they try, this does not make them a poor soldier or leader. Enjoy your 300 props to you, but do not look down your nose on ones that try but cannot achieve it. You do not know what may be keeping them from making it.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 17 at 2014 8:45 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:45:10 -0400

Only in the eyes of those in leadership positions that place an over-emphasis on PT scores and run times as the end-all, be-all as their view of a leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 9:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 09:07:40 -0400

MSG Bailey,

Yes, it does make you a better leader. The "Be" in Be-Know-Do includes the leader's will, self-discipline, stamina, and physical fitness. A leader who scores a 300 demonstrates these attributes and provides motivation for his subordinates.

Leaders who always score in the low 200s are perceived to have a character flaw because it shows that they probably have not been giving 100% in their 3+ years in the Army.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 11:14 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:14:57 -0400

Double Tap:
My guess is that BG Sinclair, BG Schweitzer, and GEN Petraeus were all high APFT scorers...probably 300s. How would you rate their leadership and ethics. I'll give GEN Patraeus kudo's for his battlefield leadership.....but at the end of the day, they committed acts that put Army leadership and ethics under the microscope, and cast a shadow over our Army. I can only imagine the number of enlisted men/women and junior officers that were damned to UCMJ for lesser offences signed off by one these three GOs and others. So you be the judge between APFT scores and good leadership/ethics.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 17 at 2014 11:41 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 11:41:16 -0400

The short answer is 'Yes'. IF you are in the shape needed to get a 300 on your APFT, then of course you have taken the time and have the dedication needed for the profession of arms. Does this mean just because you have a 300 on your APFT you are a better soldier or leader? No. There are many things that go into the mix but if you have two soldiers, and all else being equal, and one has a 300 and one has a 181 on the APFT, you go with the one who has the 300...but I will also bet you money that there is no chance that everything else is equal between these two solders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 12:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:28:46 -0400

No, not better than the next person. I would say for (self) progression yes if you put in the time and effort to work toward that. I speaking for self look at my career as a body of work I put together, so anything I acheive or accomplish makes my body of work better. (Not taking away from the people around me that have helped me along the way).

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Apr 17 at 2014 12:46 PM

1SG Mike Case — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:46:32 -0400

Obviously there is not direct link to a 300 APFT and an outstanding leader.  Yes, everyone has seem to have been stationed with a APFT stud who falls apart at the slightest hint of pressure and everyone has been stationed with a Soldier who barely passed an APFT but was the next coming of Patton.  Of course there is no direct link but I look at it as a Soldier who is trying there best at being a Soldier.  I have never met a Soldier who was a complete <A href="mailto:s^&@bag">s^&@bag</A> but would smoke the APFT.  I would say the majority of Soldiers that have a high PT score are generally all around good Soldiers.  Does that mean a Soldier who has a 213 APFT can be an all around good Soldier?  They sure can but lets pray to god that the situation he is leading so well, does not become mobile (ie; the Mogadishu Mile).  I hope no leader thinks a high APFT score is the end all, be all to leadership but sees the Total Solider and sees him use his strengths to make everyone better and learning to make the weak traits stronger, in themselves.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 17 at 2014 2:37 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:04 -0400

I suggest everyone to be well rounded in all things Army and find at least one thing to be really good at whether that is PT, weapons, or college.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Apr 17 at 2014 3:45 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:45:16 -0400

I have to say no way and no how! It is great for the training NCO and the commander for stat reporting, but it has nothing to do with leadership and the ability to lead. Having said that I have never earned a 300 and I am not bitter about it. I have performed a 298 back in the day. I think it is important to never have failed one, but to score so high is not an objective on my radar.

I can say this having competed for Soldier and NCO of the year for IX Corps HQ and the Military District of Washington. Those competitons used extended scales for the competitors and having never scored a 300, the folks who led the first event (APFT), were let down later having to excel in ALL aspects of Soldier and leader.

Physical fitness is very important for sure, but watching the Army try to change the current APFT for the last decade says that even leadership and professionals do not think it a proper barometer of fitness and an accurate way to measure one's fitness, much less leadership as a Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 7:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 19:59:35 -0400

Answer is neither. I know good, hard-working soldiers on profile or can barely score 180; however, their work ethic and discipline speaks for their lack of athletic abilities. On the other hand, I got to know self-absorbed, PT studs NCOs who only care about looking good and portray a facade to the Staff and themselves, but their discipline and leadership is undesirable. Take your pick.

I'll rather have a hard working, reliable, disciplined Soldier than a high-PT scoring NCO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 8:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 20:03:18 -0400

MSG Bailey,

To answer your question and reiterate my earlier posting, no, it does not make you one or the other.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Apr 17 at 2014 8:59 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 20:59:54 -0400

Better Soldier? To an extent, yes, as fitness is a prerequisite for the modern battlefield and austere conditions. Better Leader?  Yes, definately. You are showing your Soldiers you lead from the front and live by Paragraph Four of the Drill Sgt Creed "I will lead by example, never requiring any Soldier to perform a task I would not do myself."  Put another way, if I can do it, so can you.  In the attempt, that Soldier improves him/herself and motivates others s/he will supervise and influence in the future.  THAT's leaving a legacy worth having.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:00 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 22:00:50 -0400

The APFT is an individual accomplishment, now if your whole section scored 300s because you motivate the heck out of them, develop a plan, focus on each individual weakness, now that's leadership. I rather have a guy who scores 240 and works hard, technically competent and presents themselves as a well rounded Soldier opposed to the guy who scores 300 on his APFT and is a POS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 22:15:16 -0400

Your physical ability has nothing to do with your technical ability - unless - you're in a specific MOS that requires constant physical activity from you.

So, in short - in certain career fields - I'd say it's important. In others - not so much.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 11:53 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:53:02 -0400

If it does not make you a better Soldier or Leader then why does the Army continue to promote the idea that it does by recognizing the highest PT Score in all levels of NCOES with an Iron Person, Warrior, etc Award? What is an achievement to some just comes naturally to others. When I was a Drill Sergeant I had several Troops graduate with 290+ PT scores, that didn't make them better Privates. Why doesn't the Army create a high GT Score Badge or give a Troop more promotion points based on their GT Score? I'm not saying this counts for anything either, I've had several Troops in my formations throughout the years that had high GT Scores and that didn't make some of them any better than their counterparts. EXPERIENCE MAKES A LEADER.

Response by 1SG Gregory Crocker made Apr 17 at 2014 11:59 PM

1SG Gregory Crocker — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:59:48 -0400

I personally believe in the "total soldier concept." You cannot measure leadership by any single characteristic. Scoring a 300 alone makes you no better or worse leader than scoring a 180. The Army has standards for a reason. Exceeding the standard is wonderful, however not required in any fashion. Now I am not by any means saying that someone should merely meet every standard and simply "skate by." However, I would rather have one NCO that scores a 180 and is tactically and technically competent than 10 that can score a 300 and don't know anything about leading soldiers. I have seen far too many "star children," i.e. soldiers who make their leadership look good by scoring high on APFTs and memorizing some crib notes for a board, who can't find their 5th point of contact with both hands and a strip map. Leading in today's military requires a myriad of skills no single proficiency will allow you to excel.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 12:14 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 00:14:23 -0400

Just makes you get to the finish line faster. If you are a good leader you go and pick up those who have not yet finished the run. That is where leadership begins.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 5:14 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 17:14:10 -0400

It most cases it absolutely does not. There are Soldiers that can APFT all day long, but could not lead a Soldier to water. The APFT can not measure a Soldiers heart and dedication to lead or be a better Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 6:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:29:00 -0400

I would have to say no. Being a leader, especially an NCO is alot more than being able to max the APFT. Lets face it, some PT studs are dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to leading troops. Our job as NCOs are mainly to manage troops. We are managers, and that requires more intelligence than physicality. We have to have interpersonal skills, organizational skills, as well as be able to multi-task. Not that I'm downplaying the need for the APFT, because we should be fit for duty, but exceeding the standard doesn't make you a better leader, unless you have the rest of those pieces.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 11:15 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 11:15:36 -0400

No. It's merely one small measure a very specific element of the overall person. PT scores are given way too much attention, especially in a peacetime Army. But it's easily measurable so the intellectually lazy will continue to use it as an analog for ability.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 21 at 2014 11:54 AM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:54:18 -0400

Throwing a 300 on the APFT is great, but in my opinion I would rather have soldiers who cannot get to the summit of the APFT hill but give it everything they have to make it happen. This to me says that they are giving it their all and in many cases these soldiers are far better than those who are more physically fit because they have the mental acuity to go along with the drive to succeed as an all around soldier. This is not to say that those who throw a 300 aren't good soldiers, they are, it is just that they seem to make it look so easy and it causes soldiers such as myself to feel worse about themselves for not getting a perfect score.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 1:09 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 13:09:34 -0400

In short MSG, YES it does make you a better Soldier and Leader. Does it make you a GOOD Soldier and Leader........well no it does not on its own.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Apr 23 at 2014 3:50 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:50:00 -0400

Let's keep this simple.

Does a 300 make one a better leader? Yes - it comes with being a job description under the heading "do as I do"

Does a 300 make one a better Soldier? Probably puts one a cut above average - as physical fitness is a prerequisite to win on the modern battlefield.

Does a 300 make a statement? Absolutely. It says you're willing to put in the time and do what it takes to excel.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 1:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 May 2014 13:54:54 -0400

I don't think it makes you a better leader but it plays a part. I had to sponser a soldier for the Best Warrior Competition that was selected to compete based on the fact that he had a 300 on his APFT and was good at Combatives. To make a long story short there were soldiers that were better than him at combatives, he was clueless on moving a team in a tactical environment, couldn't disasemble and assemble a weapon and didn't know land nav. His leadership tried to use the excuse that the other soldiers were infantry and do it all the time, but these were basic skill level 1 tasks that every soldier should know

Response by SFC Dave Mccain made May 14 at 2014 4:16 PM

SFC Dave Mccain — Wed, 14 May 2014 16:16:46 -0400

No. Not in and of itself. I have known some PT "studs" that were horrible leaders. However, as with many other aspects, it can be an indicator. It can show that given a task, this person has shown potential to excel. This is only one facet of a leader, of a Soldier. We speak of the total Soldier concept, but it can fall on deaf ears. It does distinguish someone, but should not be the only aspect considered.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 14 at 2014 4:22 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Wed, 14 May 2014 16:22:58 -0400

Being strong doesn't make you smart. Just because you can run like the wind and do a bunch of pull-ups or push-ups doesn't mean you now how to do your job. Addittionally it doesn't mean you know hwo to lead others.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2014 10:46 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 May 2014 22:46:16 -0400

Having a 300 APFT score does not make you a better leader. Physical Fitness is only one aspect of being a leader and it is an individual event. A strong body does not equal a strong mind. I have known leaders who can score a 300 on their APFT and not one of their soldiers can achieve a 250 or higher. However, I have seen leaders that have scored 250-270 and coached and mentored their soldiers to achieve a 300; this is a leader. Furthermore, the standard for physical fitness excellence is 270 with 90 on each event.

Lastly, I agree with SFC Crocker....Total Soldier Concept.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 3:14 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Jun 2014 15:14:24 -0400

No, but senior leaders do favor that. I have asthma and I'm a terrible runner. Does that make me a bad leader? No, well it shouldn't because a good leader has the personality, courage, clear vision with ambition to succeed. A good leader encourages a team to perform to their optimum all the time and drives organisational success. As long as you do your best and can influences others while doing it. You're good in my book.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Jul 3 at 2014 11:41 AM

SPC David Hannaman — Thu, 03 Jul 2014 11:41:36 -0400

I've met mediocre soldiers that maxed APFT, but I've never met a great soldier that made the minimum.

Physical fitness effects psychological fitness, but it is not the only variable.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 11:52 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 23:52:19 -0400

No, it just makes you a good runner with a strong upper body and midsection.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 9 at 2014 3:02 AM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 03:02:22 -0400

Not necessarily 1SG, but it shows you make the extra effort. When I had my two platoons I made sure that my PT was always among the top. There were always studs among my men (unavoidable in the Infantry), but seeing that their PL was right up there with them earned me their respect. If you can't get a 300, the effort to strive for your best, whatever that may be is also something the guys will notice.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Sep 9 at 2014 3:09 AM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 03:09:23 -0400

No. It just makes you a better athlete. Genetics have a lot to do with athletic ability... actually, genetics determine athletic ability. That doesn't mean that someone can't bust their ass off and get fit such that they max their three events. Either way, how does that make someone a good leader?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2014 7:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:34:07 -0400

Depends. Overall, having a better APFT does make us a better soldier but it's only part of the formula.

We have to look at the soldier as a whole. How do the shortcomings of the soldier compare to what he/she does well? What are the impacts on the unit and the mission? If he/she is a leader, how will it impact subordinates? When I say shortcoming I mean lower performance NOT failing the standard.

One of the things that has often bothered me throughout my career is how easily we discharge someone for not being physically fit, but at the same time let people who are horrible at their job continue service? How does 1% over BF compare to being the lowest percentile in job performace? Where is that being enforced? NCOER's? C'mon we all know those things are often fluff, and I have NEVER seen a person discharged for being bad at their MOS.

For instance, I'm a 25B. I do that part of my job far more than I run around or do pushups. Would the Army rather have a guy that cannot find the power button on a computer but can get a 300 apft? Sounds illogical to me.

I can walk around any post all day long and find thousands of people using information systems. Far more than I see walking around with a rifle. Far more than I see doing PT. Should we not expect higher standards for skills that require the majority of our day?

What is important is for people to meet the standard and keep trying to improve. I just wish we actually had job standards that resulted in chapters....

Bottom line, meet the standard, do our best, and be great at something. Most people will not be great at everything. Even if they are when they are younger, it will change as they get older. It did for me. We gotta be great with at least one thing that sets us aapart; job, boards, pt, or anything that makes u s valuable to the unit.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Sep 9 at 2014 6:38 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 18:38:45 -0400

No, but when I was in the 1st Infantry division, I was a CW2, and right next to me was a SSG, we started the PT test with push ups, he was obviously in good shape, but at 38 push ups he got up, that was the minimum for his age bracket, I would venture to say that his action proved he was not a good leader and would never be a good leader, and I told him so!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 11:37 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 11:37:02 -0400

Yes, it does make you a better leader in a sense now a leader who scores a 300 demonstrates that he or she has motivation to their subordinates. Now on the flip side i know Leaders that do not have a 300 on the APFT and are just as great as a leader....... with the knowledge base but do not have the strength and agility like the NCO's that do

from what i have seen and have been taught is that leaders who always score in the lower to mid 200's are perceived to have a flaw of character and leadership skills because it shows that they don't give it there 100%, do i agree on it .. NO!

i personally will never see a 300 no matter how hard i train i am at a plateau and cant get past 14:15 but at least give forth all my effort as long as show my leaders and soldiers that i think that is all that matters, because if you know what to do in certain circumstances and your joes dont come home in body bags you are just as good as the one that is really fast and can do alot of push ups and sit up..... and not have poor characteristic traits like being an Ahole to your soldiers when they do everything u ask for

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 12:10 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 12:10:14 -0400

NO.

Response by 1SG Thomas Ross made Oct 23 at 2014 11:27 AM

1SG Thomas Ross — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:27:56 -0400

A good leader will always be in shape to do the best they can on the APFT. This way they will always be leading by example.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 7:50 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:50:50 -0500

Physical Fitness/PT is a facet of what makes up the total Soldier. Looking at one facet and ignoring the others does a disservice to not only the Soldier, but the unit, and the Army in general.

As long as a Soldier is meeting the PT standard, the Soldier is a "GO." If the Soldier is meeting the standard in his/her MOS skills and job performance, then s/he is a "GO." If the Soldier is a NCO, if s/he is a good leader who has the trust and confidence of his/her Soldiers as well as his/her peers and superiors? Is the Soldier a positive, contributing member of the unit? All of these are facets of the "Total Soldier" (I'm sure you can think of others) and one should not weigh more heavily than any other.

While at OCS, we were told point blank, "Running = Leadership = Running." Yes, Officers should always be in front of their troops, but again, this is just a facet of Leadership. The ability to run long distances fast is admirable, but IMHO the ability of an Officer to LEAD is more important to me as a mid-level leader than the Company Commander's APFT score. A 300 APFT score but no trust or confidence from those being led means nothing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 8:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:07:16 -0500

Im not a hater. So what if people make 300 on their APFT? Its an individual event. It does not mean they are any better than those that make a 180.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 8:12 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:12:46 -0500

Simply put: No.

The APFT doesn't measure anyone's ability to lead others into combat nor does it help discern one's technical prowess within their occupational specialty.

At the worst, a 300 on the APFT gives you a glimpse into a soldier's superior genetics and at best it shows that a soldier is willing to put in the effort / hard work to attain the score (which might be a positive quality found in many great leaders, but is no indicator of one's leadership ability).

Response by SPC Larry Buck made Jan 19 at 2015 10:05 PM

SPC Larry Buck — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:05:27 -0500

Um.. Honestly? I wanna know how you plan to use this in life, we called those tuff guys hero's can you use it on call? Or is it an automatic response to situations?

Response by SPC Larry Buck made Jan 19 at 2015 10:09 PM

SPC Larry Buck — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:09:22 -0500

Definitely snapped into the slim Jim there, I second what she said, erase mine please!

Response by PVT Dominique Stewart made Jan 19 at 2015 10:31 PM

PVT Dominique Stewart — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:31:26 -0500

Negative, Top. Merely having a 300 on the APFT is a part of being a good leader, but it takes much more.

Response by SPC Joshua H. made Jan 20 at 2015 12:04 AM

SPC Joshua H. — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 00:04:38 -0500

No, it does not.

I knew leaders that were just over minimum that were GREAT NCOs/officers. Also, knew some that were at max, or very close, that had no idea what leadership was.

Physical fitness has nothing at all to do with someones leadership abilities. Some are born leaders, some are born athletes...they do not always go hand in hand, but a good/great leader will always work to improve their-self, and those around them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 12:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 00:46:51 -0500

HA!!! Heck no!!! I knew 2 guys who could score 300s with ease. Too bad one is dead dad to his two young sons (2 yr & 1 yr old) and the other got kicked out because he was almost convicted of statutory rape

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Jan 20 at 2015 7:19 AM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:19:42 -0500

Yes and no at the same time.

Yes, it will allow your subordinates have another reason to be inspired to be greater.

No, just because your a PT stud doesn't mean you know how to do your job. It just means you can move the heavier stuff. I have seen PT studs not know the first line of the NCO Creed.

Response by SSG Daniel Parker made Jan 20 at 2015 7:42 AM

SSG Daniel Parker — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:42:21 -0500

Hell No! I have had soldiers that scored 300 on the APFT, and were still dirt Bags. Leadership is based on accumulated knowledge put into practice. Sifting out the failures while cultivating the success. Individual achievement (APFT), is a tool for the soldier to use in goal setting and achievement, not a factor in identifying leadership potential.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 8:49 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 08:49:09 -0500

You have 2 soldiers that both scored 300 in their last APFT, one of them is a naturally fit guy that worked out just the org pt, the other one trained twice as hard to get the 300. Which one is a better leader OR soldier? Both scored 300... I know SSG Robert Burns can come with something but the point is that it depends in the soldier more than in just the score. I know a SGT that runs the 2 miles below the 13 mins ALWAYS, he doesn't run oftenly, he is just fast. He is a great leader too, it is not because his APFT score but the soldier he is.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 2:37 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:37:11 -0500

Can't hurt

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 2:52 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:52:53 -0500

I do not feel that scoring a 300 makes you a better soldier or leader. Every soldier should strive to hit that magical 300 on their PT test. I'm still one of those people who is striving to hit it one day during my military career. For some it comes easy, but for others it takes extreme hardwork. I'm not saying that people who score 300's don't are hardworkers. I'm just saying that some people have to work at it harder. But I have seen soldiers/leaders, belittle other soldiers who don't hit a 300 on their pt test.

I have seen soldiers who can do 100 pushups 100 situps and run a 1100 flat, but they couldn't figure out how to do their damn job. The Army isn't entirely about pt, I don't want to go to war and fight beside you because you can do pushups. I want to fight beside you because you can do your job when shit hits the fan.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Jan 20 at 2015 3:01 PM

SGT James Elphick — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:01:06 -0500

I think the issue at hand is not so much whether having an APFT score of 300 makes you a better soldier/leader it is the pervasive mentality that it does and that this is often the sole metric by which soldiers are judged. As soldiers, and especially leaders, a high level of physical fitness is important but so are other skills. Intelligence and comprehension of MOS specific skills/duties often times seem to fall by the way side in favor of simply looking at a soldier based on their PT score. This is probably because it is quite simple to do but it hinders other good soldiers who are skilled in other ways.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 3:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:01:22 -0500

Absolutely not. The fact that most leaders are either revered or dismissed based on their APFT score is ridiculous.

While I admit that a 300 on an APFT can show some discipline, there are some who just can naturally run like the wind and do push-ups and sit-ups for days. That does not make somebody a good leader or a good Soldier.

Response by SSG Craig Thompson made Jan 20 at 2015 3:14 PM

SSG Craig Thompson — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:14:46 -0500

I don't think that getting a 300 on the pt test makes you a better soldier or leader. I have seen it eat to much where a soldier or leader can get a 300, get an award for it (which I don't think should happen), but can't or won't do simple tasks or lead soldiers out of paper bag with both ends open. I am 43 yrs old and did a lot of physical jobs when I was a civilian. Haven't even come close to a 300 since I came back in the army, but I can out work soldiers or leaders I have worked with into the ground. Finally, to be a good leader is to me working along side your soldiers to show them you are willing to do what they do. Best advice I have ever gotten, remember how you were treated as a lower enlisted. If you were treated badly learn from it and change it. You will have bad leadership and good leadership.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 3:38 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:38:23 -0500

Physical fitness is just one aspect of the total soldier concept. Yes it is an important part to being a soldier. it lets leaders know who in their formation is progressing to be a better soldier as far as pt and who is not. But to look at that one PT stud and automatically think that soldier is the best soldier ever is ignorant negligent and disregards the other character traits that are required to be a soldier. With the way the Army has been progressing it has become a competition among ourselves on who has the better pt score who can shoot the best These soldiers will get the first of everything. Some of which can also be lacking is far as the total soldier concept.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 3:43 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:43:40 -0500

Not at all! We harp too much on the apft. But it doesn't make you a better soldier or leader. It's just an added bonus.

Response by SGT John Izzo made Jan 20 at 2015 3:52 PM

SGT John Izzo — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:52:32 -0500

No, because the standards are not the same for men and women and therefore skewed, just like the question itself, and the APFT.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 20 at 2015 5:03 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:03:00 -0500

Every soldier must pull their own weight and have something left in the tank to help others when they falter (because everyone falters at one time or another, even those who score 300). Does that require a perfect AFPT? No.

Everyone has individual strengths and weaknesses, even the soldier who scores 300. To be a better leader you have to know those in your command and use them to best advantage.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 6:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:31:40 -0500

I feel it does make you a better soldier/leader. It obviously is not the only factor. I just don't see how one can uphold the standard while their gut is hanging out. Nor can one set the standard when they are falling out of the run. Soldiers see those kinds of things and then assume it is OK to be average or even below average.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Jan 20 at 2015 6:46 PM

SPC Christopher Morehouse — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:46:22 -0500

I like the easy questions, and the answer is NO. It doesn't hurt, but as corny as it sounds it is what is in your head and heart that makes you a good soldier. I'll take the 200 that believes in what we stand for and strives to know his trade over the 300 who could give a shit any day.

Response by SSG Carl Dorsey made Jan 20 at 2015 8:08 PM

SSG Carl Dorsey — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 20:08:21 -0500

No. Leaders need more than brawn to be a real leader.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 9:52 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 21:52:22 -0500

Ah, the illustrious APFT status. There have been times in my career where I have seen leaders use APFT to clarify what they consider a good/bad leader. I fully understand, as an NCO, that I set the standard for my Soldiers, but I also know their limitations and capabilities. When I was in the Combat Engineers, the Assault and Obstacle platoon sergeant had stated that anyone that is less than 270 will never see a promotion board. I once read an article in Army Times where a General had stated that he would rather have a 300 APFT Soldier that doesn't know the job than a Soldier that can do the job but can't get a 300 score. His reason was, he can teach them how to do the job. In all of my years in the service, I have never understood that kind of mentality. Before I was a perm profile, my highest APFT was a 224. I was proud of that score since I ran my 6 off, but was told I need to do better if I want to see the board. Now, I am perm profile, a SGT (waiting for my SSG orders to be printed), and the NCOIC of my unit. My Soldiers respect me, look up to me, and come to me for help and guidance. Those are signs of a good leader, not a number.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 11:01 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 23:01:54 -0500

Not necessarily, but it does make you a better example.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 12:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 00:02:22 -0500

Like everyone on here there seems to bee a varying degree of how the APFT score correlates to being a good Soldier / Leader. too many times though it gets seen as the go to factor and yes physical fitness is a requirement and there are standards put forth that are required. I use the ruck march qualification for my arguement, I have seen soldiers all the time trying to run the 12 or 6 mile ruck march in as little time as possible, wrecking their bodies for a GO/NO-GO event, no extra points. I see these incidents being caused by a blind following, or influence, that you need to score the highest on the APFT to be seen as a good leader or soldier. I am all about setting a goal to reach to improve your APFT score and stagnation is a terrible thing that shows lack of motivation or care. But some soldiers and leaders need to look at the APFT as what it is meant to be: THE RESULTS OF THIS TEST WILL GIVE YOU AND YOUR COMMANDERS AN INDICATION OF YOUR STATE OF FITNESS AND WILL ACT AS A GUIDE IN DETERMINING YOUR PHYSICAL TRAINING NEEDS. - FM 7-22

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 12:03 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 00:03:50 -0500

No I don't thinks so at all.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 21 at 2015 12:28 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 00:28:14 -0500

I know I am late to the game/discussion, but I believe being a good Soldier and especially a good Leader, means being the best you can be all required tasks. No, it does not make you better, but scoring high on any tangible standard demonstrates you live by the words "lead by example." All Soldiers should strive to do their best, but APFT alone does not make a good Soldier. A good Soldier is good in all areas, not just APFT. That said, APFT, marksmanship, etc are tangible ways to measure all of us, so in that regard they matter.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 21 at 2015 2:09 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 02:09:46 -0500

No, it just means you are in a bit better shape... Usually. We had a guy in our platoon in boot camp. He had nearly a perfect PFT but was quite a bit overweight. He was put on fat body watch. Half rations for chow. He wasn't loosing much weight. Finally some one got the idea to check his body fat. He didn't have any. He was heavy because he was a bodybuilder before enlisting!

Don't judge a book by its cover or a leader by his PFT... Er APFT. Sorry, maybe a little off topic but there it is anyways.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 3:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 03:00:09 -0500

lets use simple logic here...how does having a good apft score make you a better leader? too many times i have seen and continue to see some of the 300 score guys have the IQ of mustard and cant do MOS specific jobs. Yes it it great that they excel in the physical requirements of the service but that's because the army doesn't have annual aptitude test on MOS's. everyone has their flaws. I have seen on my recent deployment Leaders that I considered great "crack" under pressure. a great leader is formed through their trials and tribulations that life has thrown at them and how they positively mold their subordinates.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 8:25 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 08:25:19 -0500

I have always believed that it was something to be proud of untill I had to explain to one of my soldiers that he was being chaptered for being overweight and his response was valid; he responded" but I pass the APFT and have never scored below a 270" and he was correct, he was a young soldier, he came straight out of AIT and was 5'10 280lbs, a good soldier, hard working and disciplined, I even deployed with him, while deployed he got down to 240lbs, we came back from down range and the Army's agenda was getting rid of soldier's not in compliance. .. How hard is it not to say to my higher ups that this is total BS... this soldier came in over weight and has deployed and actually lost weight, never failed an APFT, even worse scores in the top 10% and I have to take him in front of the man CO by the way the CO was overweight and never did PT with the unit.... My position is why let these guys in the Army if we just going to use them, put them in harms way and then kick them out basically saying your not good enough and the irony ( no offense to officers that are with the standard ) but for the most part officers in my branch are the ones overweight. The soldier actually asked me was the CO going to get chaptered also.......speechless

Response by Sgt Michael Johnson made Jan 21 at 2015 8:55 AM

Sgt Michael Johnson — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 08:55:06 -0500

Of course it does. Have you people ever heard of leading by example. Maybe it's a Marine thing, but as a Marine platoon sergeant, I'd die before I fell out in front of my platoon.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 1:03 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 01:03:17 -0500

I have seen plenty of leaders/ Soldiers that's in the 300 club and hats off to THEM! But what have they done by pulling that Soldier up that fails to meet the mark? Yeah look at me,"my tents up attitude will only get them so far, it's building up that weak link in the chain." That's foundation/ environment great leaders should strive to achieve.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 23 at 2015 7:57 AM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:57:13 -0500

Nope, I've known my fair share of 300 PFT folks that sucked as Marines whether it be attitude or inability to actually carry a combat load, believe it or not. I believe the combat fitness test is a better way of evaluating a SM's ability to handle combat physical demands, however, that still doesn't deter me their complete leadership ability.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 10:02 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:02:52 -0500

No. It does not. I don't make 300's but I make close enough to it to be satisfied. People do value other people that make a 300 with no problem more and talk down on the ones that have potential to get there but just don't. I have no intentions on making it to 300 for just that reason cause I'm starting to see that now. My work ethics should make me a better soldier. Not the fact that I could out run others.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 9:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 21:45:59 -0500

No, SFC Hester is correct.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 10:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:40:15 -0500

FK NO!!!!! It either means you're a PT stud or your grader didn't grade push ups/sit ups to standard. Judging a Soldiers ability as a leader or Soldier by their APFT score is total bullshit (no disrespect meant to you 1SG Baily). But I've known a few 300+ Soldiers who were sub-par Soldiers and/or leaders. Then there's those 220 APFT Soldiers that were just shit hot on their tactical/technical proficiency.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 11:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 23:07:39 -0500

I would have to say that it doesn't automatically make you a good leader. If you have the genetics that make you a natural athlete, a 300 isn't impressive. If you are not built to be an athlete but push yourself and have the self discipline to score a 300, then yes it does make you a better leader. You set the example to strive for excellence. I'm not saying that the natual athlete doesn't have to work hard to maintain, I'm only saying they don't have to work as hard as others. As many others have said, no one quality can define a good leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 2:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 14:19:30 -0500

Hell no

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Jan 24 at 2015 9:30 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 21:30:56 -0500

i would have to say no.
This is like saying a technical expert makes a good leader.
Does not always work out that way

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 10:37 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:37:26 -0500

I don't think it's a definitive metric. However, it is one of many attributes of a leader,especially at the tactical level. If you're not fit, and you're struggling on patrol, then chances are you aren't focusing on the many tasks you have at hand.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 24 at 2015 10:50 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:50:46 -0500

Has anyone committed a study to this? I am going to say no. A 300 on the APFT is great, but its only a small part of the whole Soldier concept. I tell Soldiers to find one or two things in the military and be the best at that.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 8:21 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:21:43 -0500

No, I known guys who are terrible at anything physical but they could get a 300 apft with no big deal or couldn't lead or have the attitude to better themselves or the others around them.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 25 at 2015 8:49 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 08:49:44 -0500

A better soldier or leader? Not exactly.

Does it allow you to set a better example? Yes. Are you comparatively better than someone without a perfect score? Yes.

However, it all depends on whether you will actually use the full measure of that fitness or not. If someone has a lower score, but they are still able to perform to standard when needed, then does it matter?

But, better doesn't matter. Comparative does. We are always being judged by the Soldier, Marine, Airman, or Sailor next to us. When you go up to a board, the first impression with be things like rifle score, and PFT, and if you don't knock those out of the park, you're just digging yourself out of a hole.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 10:30 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 10:30:17 -0500

Most of the Soldiers and leaders that get a 300 on their APFT conduct extra physical fitness. That shows me they have that, I want more, and want to be the best attitude. I would say 99% of the time that attitude would continue with his or her leadership. For me it is, I want my Soldiers to know I am not just pushing them during PRT because I can as a MSG, but I can because I back it up with my APFT score. I always want to set the example.

Response by PFC Alex Garza made Jan 25 at 2015 12:17 PM

PFC Alex Garza — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:17:36 -0500

No, being physically fit is a basic requirement. Having a 300 pt score does not make you a leader nor does it mean your a better worker

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 2:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:07:46 -0500

Hell no. When I was at my peak physical performance I typically scored around 275. I scored 300 or close to it as a private but was overall weaker. As far as a correlation to leadership, you have to lead by example to be a good leader. Does that mean getting a 300? Nope. As long as you strive for excellence you are setting the right example.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 3:34 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 15:34:51 -0500

Does your leading by example give your subordinates something to strive for? Yes.
Does your PT score directly correlate to your leadership ability? Absolutely not.

I do see how a superior failing a PT test gives subordinates the image that it doesn't matter how they do on it, but that is as far as it goes. Yes, PT is a part of your job. I believe there is a reason that it weighs a lot more going toward to E-5 promotions only. Not everyone has the same abilities no matter how you look at it. Do I pass my APFT? Yes. Do I want to score a 300? Absolutely. I try my hardest every time, but if I don't score a 300, well that's ok with me because I know that I put everything I had into it and that I definitely passed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 3:41 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 15:41:50 -0500

Of course a 300 makes you a better soldier!! It is another weapon in a complete soldier to be overall physically fit amongst the skills such as navigation. If you are dedicated to your physical attributes, it shows dedication to your job, soldiers, and to the army.

Response by PFC Jason Siegel made Jan 25 at 2015 5:15 PM

PFC Jason Siegel — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:15:56 -0500

Neither, I knew guys that could get 300 and above (it still counts as a 300 ) but couldn't balance a checkbook and would bounce checks and overdraw their bank accounts 5 days after payday.... Just sayin...

Response by SSG Michelle Baxter made Jan 25 at 2015 6:37 PM

SSG Michelle Baxter — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:37:25 -0500

No there are a number of things that encompasses the entire army decorum that creates a great soldier person and leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 7:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:11:20 -0500

Now look at this from the perspective that of a Soldier fails the APFT they labeled a lower quality SM. Now if someone takes the time to increase their physical abilities in order to perform to the maximum on the APFT that should show desire and drive to improve themselves.

Response by SGT Seth Slone made Jan 25 at 2015 10:15 PM

SGT Seth Slone — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:15:15 -0500

No I have seen blue falcons have some of the highest pt scores

Response by SSG JimSchan Thomas made Jan 26 at 2015 1:12 PM

SSG JimSchan Thomas — Mon, 26 Jan 2015 13:12:40 -0500

A 300 pt score alone does not, but that along with a combination of other qualities can. Its all about the total soldier package. Just because someone can run two miles in ten minutes does not mean they can carry someone out of a fire fight.

Response by SSG Cameron Henson made Jan 26 at 2015 4:22 PM

SSG Cameron Henson — Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:22:13 -0500

Fitness can't be underated. It's been my firm belief that the APFT does not adequately test combat fitness, the things you need to be able to do to win in a combat environment. The whole PT program fails in that regard. As to leadership, the best leaders were the Soldiers who could do it better and faster than the rest of the platoon. Tactical and technical proficiency at every job in the platoon makes the ideal Soldier.

Response by SFC Brian Vasquez made Jan 28 at 2015 8:59 AM

SFC Brian Vasquez — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:59:27 -0500

Yes it makes you a better leader in terms of an example to your soldiers. No it doesnt make u a better leader if you get 300's if that's all you can bring to the table as a leader.

Response by COL Fred Guzman made Jan 28 at 2015 7:22 PM

COL Fred Guzman — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 19:22:35 -0500

Absolutely no, I rather lead a Soldier that is proficient in his or her MOS or AOC for officer than a recruiting poster child picture.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 8:08 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 20:08:34 -0500

Not really

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 10:49 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 22:49:18 -0500

No, a strong PFT score is only a reflection of one's physical ability. It is the least of what it takes to be a leader. To make decisions that can affect people's lives and careers is a much greater responsibility than that of maintaining a 300 APFT Score.

Response by SPC Kc Carter made Jan 29 at 2015 5:16 AM

SPC Kc Carter — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 05:16:38 -0500

You can still be stupid and physically fit.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 29 at 2015 8:19 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 08:19:24 -0500

In my honest opinion no it does not because if you don't know your fourth point of contact from a hole in the ground you are not an effective leader. Yes I have met some that can smoke the PT test and were effective leaders but that was because they were well rounded Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 3:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:38:38 -0500

Sorry for the second post... darned interwebs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 3:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:38:53 -0500

You know what a 300 APFT score tells me? It tells me that the Soldier in question can pass three events in a exceptional manner. It tells me little more than that about the Soldier. Yes, it does take a modicum of discipline to be able to maintain the physical standards for a 300, but that's about it. It doesn't tell me if the Soldier is disciplined in other areas of his/her MOS, professional bearing, or aptitude toward any aspect of Soldiering. This "300 PT Stud" mentality that higher ups push is ridiculous.

I want a well rounded Soldier. If it's between picking a 200 APFT scoring Soldier that does well in all the other aspects of his/her job, up against a 300 PT stud that can't keep his drinking to a minimum, can't make it to formation, and is generally a disgrace to the uniform when not taking a APFT. Any day of the week and twice on Saturday I'll pick that 200 APFT scoring Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 3:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:43:46 -0500

I had an NCO at my 1st duty station who was the worst soldier I've ever met who consistently scored a 300+

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 3:53 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:53:57 -0500

Unfortunately we still have CSMs that value a 300 pts APFT score over anything else. Personally I care less about a 300 score if you cant lead yourself out of a wet paperbag. Leadership is the cornerstone of any successful organization.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:05:47 -0500

I believe it is an essential skill in being both a good leader and soldier. One must be in good physical health to perform their duties and WTBDs. It is necessary for a leader to be able to lead from the front metaphorically by setting examples and at times literally. I don't believe it is the sole defining factor in what a good leader should be but it is definitely a good skill to possess.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:11:22 -0500

I went from scoring 300+ on PT tests to suffering a TBI & back injury and being on permanent profile does that make me a bad soldier now? What I'm trying to say is that what you do in PT is irrelevant, what people should worry about is your ability to do your job and be a proper leader. Just because I cannot PT as hard as I used to, did it make me a bad leader? Of course don't be the guy who just scores a 180, try your hardest and stay within your bodily limits.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:14 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:14:32 -0500

1SG, it's the same way with the GT scores does a high GT make you smarter and/or a better leader? My opinion is that you should have a balance on every single aspect to be successful. You need what you need i.e. leadership, pride, personal courage, effort, and overall be able to communicate.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:24:09 -0500

NO. Performing the exercises correctly and grading them correctly makes you a better Soldier and Leader. Your score doesn't matter...

Response by Sgt Michael Mcelprang made Jan 30 at 2015 4:27 PM

Sgt Michael Mcelprang — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:27:24 -0500

physical fitness doesn't really make you a good leader, but what it does say to your Soldier, Marines, Airmen, Sailors is that if I can do a 300 APFT whats your excuse. Basically, it gives you something to strive for and in theory better performance all around. In theory.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:30:50 -0500

A 300 pt score does makes you a better soldier and a better leader. As the Army continues to down size it will shift its focus toward training and physical fitness.

Response by SFC Rapfeal Mayfield made Jan 30 at 2015 4:48 PM

SFC Rapfeal Mayfield — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:48:08 -0500

Absolutely not...I have had great leaders who didn't score a 300. A lot of soldiers in the Army do tend to think that way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 4:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:51:37 -0500

you kidding me? I know a lot a muscle with NO Brain. I often wonder how in the hell did they pass the Asvab to get in the military in the first place.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:02 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:02:27 -0500

300 can boost a soldier ego, but for one to be called leader because of that would be exaggerated if that high speed doesn't contribute to the development of those difficulty with passing their APFT or meeting the unit standards. I dislike when an individual after scoring 300 at PT test wants the rest of the unit to be at his/her mercy. I have seen few of those getting separated for misconduct because leaders became to laxist with them instead of helping them to cultivate the character of a leader abiding by the Army values: curfew violations, use of forbidden substances, disrespected towards leaders and peers.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jan 30 at 2015 5:12 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:12:00 -0500

I personally believe that what a soldier does on APFT and his testing scores should reflect only what is required for his duty assignment . His knowledge of his MOS is the most critical scoring in my book.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:21 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:21:48 -0500

Making a 300 is showing a good example that your applying yourself and self discipline! In a way it promotes good leadership! It also helps your NCOER!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:27 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:27:35 -0500

The APFT is not the best indicator on battlefield fitness, but it shows discipline, hard work, and determination to consistently score a 300. Its not a terrible indicator of overall fitness. It is not an indicator if you're a good leader, but its what a good leader should always strive to do, excel.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:30:44 -0500

No absolutely not

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:47 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:47:48 -0500

This one is one of my pet peeves! The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT but the people who score 300 surely get treated as such (In some units). This was never an issue for me during my career until within the last 8 years or so, I started noticing troops get promoted but I swear they couldn't spell "BINGO" with the song playing in the background. I began to wonder what it was all about and noticed they all had 300's in PT. I was always a 280 and above guy so I never questioned anyone else on PT but apparently to some leaders, they believed this was the standard of a great Soldier. Meanwhile, we had E4's working on their Master's level degrees but were about a 210 in PT. They remained E4's for life and eventually became the ones who just used up TA for school and left once their degree was complete (and with a bad taste for the Army in their mouths). I make it a point now to reward the "Total Soldier" as opposed to someone who is only good at one thing.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:56:36 -0500

Absolutely not, I'm only a SPC. But a lot of the leaders that I've had were above average on APFT and I would follow them anywhere on the battle field. My PT score is not so good 70's in all events for the first time in my five year career, but I know my job and being the senior E4 in my squad I have taught young privates how to preform even better. My mos is 15G and I'm 34 years old

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 17:57:46 -0500

APFT 300 does not mean that you are a leader and can not be one. It is not a requirement to be leader, leader is much more than a APFT 300. Leader is more than that is commitment to his soldiers, the institution and the country.

Response by SFC James Liedtka made Jan 30 at 2015 6:02 PM

SFC James Liedtka — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:02:42 -0500

I've been doing PT for 29 years. One thing I have learned in all that time is that I am more a plow horse than a quarter horse. In my youth I came close a few times with a 270+ because I maxed my PU and SU. Of course now at 52 years old I measure myself by how many young Soldiers follow me across the finish line. I think the APFT overall contributes little to being a good or bad leader. I've had poor leaders that maxed the test and great leaders who just met the standards (sometimes after a retest). It works the same with just being a regular Joe.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 6:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:45:34 -0500

Considering the events in no way shape or form have anything to do with what I do for a living, no. At best it measures your ability on how well you can take your test. However there is a slight motivation factor. Are you that guy that stands off to the side watching someone struggle to make it? Or are you the one that gets in that soldiers ass to get him or her to crank out just that last little bit? Just my opinion. A 300 does not make the soldier.

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Jan 30 at 2015 6:46 PM

MSG Mitch Dowler — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:46:46 -0500

No, it makes you a more fit leader. The quality of a soldier or leaders performance is a lot more holistic than physical fitness. I consider it a good thing to max the APFT but it remains at the bottom of qualities that make a great leader.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Jan 30 at 2015 6:50 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:50:44 -0500

ahhhhhh no. really a good PT score on a total disaster of a soldier, could do more harm to the military. Guess who going to get promoted combined with education. Don't get me wrong, if you have the right leadership skills, it helps and reinforce a person leadership structure

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 6:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:53:45 -0500

I dont think scoring a 300 makes you a good leader or soldier what so ever. What I see alot of the time is horrible soldiers who get special treatment because they are good at pt and nothing else. Its sad when a person can suck at their job and not know crap yet get praised because of a high pt score.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:05:01 -0500

Well, 300 points doesn't make you a better Soldier, but definitibelly' been fit make you a more physical fit Soldier, Phisically and Mentally. when I went in the Army for first time I was coming out of High School was a Track & Field Runner and believed or not Basic Training for me was like eating a Candy even my Drill Sergeant let me run by my self out of Formation, Phi fit did really make me a better Soldier not only on my PT Test but also in everything else I did; including Promotions and Troops Motivation and energy to do things a lot easier so PT is really important to keep Troops Motivated and Phisical Fit and ready for action in case you have to Deploy for Warfare or for Oversees Training Specially when the Training last for Few weeks, is a shame how sometimes I go different Bases or Post around USA and see Soldiers with extra weight not 5 or 10 pounds 20, 30, 40 or 50 pounds over weight and I ask my self where is the Chain in Command or Platoon Sergeants or even Squads Leaders of this Soldiers".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:16 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:16:51 -0500

No. Sure a 300 on the APFT is great, but being a better Leader is a skill that requires time, effort, hard work and dedication. Better soldier, no. If a soldier wants to be better they have to want to be better. This requires hard work and dedication also. There are PT studs that are garbage NCO's and Soldiers.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:23 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:23:59 -0500

I don't care how well you do at PT. It takes effective communication skills and people skills to be an effective leader

Response by SGT Jamison Calloway made Jan 30 at 2015 7:29 PM

SGT Jamison Calloway — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:29:40 -0500

Not in all instances just means more competitive physically.

Response by SGT Jason Trevino made Jan 30 at 2015 7:47 PM

SGT Jason Trevino — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:47:15 -0500

I think a 300 along with shined boots and starched uniform make the perfect leader!!! At least that's how it was seen in the old days!!! To me the measuring stick for a great leader is how his troops are doing not how you do individually!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:48:31 -0500

Scoring a 300 might be nice. But in my opinion does not make you a better soldier. Not everyone might be good in PT. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. What one soldier don't do to good PT might make up for in weapons qualification or something. We are all leaders.

Response by CSM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:48 PM

CSM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:48:37 -0500

As a Soldier who has made the 300+ scale since basic training, 16 years ago and is known as a PT stud, I will say NO. It actually seems like the APFT has become a way for the strong to single out the weak, or bully in some ways. The Army has it backwards, if a Soldier of the Month has a tie score, the leader look at the PT scores to determine who is the winner. It should be the Marksmanship score. I have deployed with and lead some awesome people who would gut out a 260 on the APFT, but can shoot expert every time and while deployed these same Soldiers could out ruck the fast runner and still shoot under fire. That is what is more important. With all of that said, there is a difference between APFT score and HT/WT standards.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:50 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:50:49 -0500

I don't believe so. I have known many who could pull a 300, but were always the first to quit working or had no clue how to do their job and mentor soldiers.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:52 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:52:32 -0500

It depends. Some people will work their ass off trying to reach that 300 and never get it. It's easier for some than others. But a soldier who strives for excellence will make a better leader than a person who just puts in bare minimum.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:55:12 -0500

Is it a soldier that came to the unit barely passing the pt test? If so then more often than not it is a good indicator of a good soldier. It shows the soldier invested his/her time to improve their pt score. Soldier could have easily settled for a 90 in each event but that wasn't good enough. A soldier that settles for nothing less than perfection in one area often exhibits these traits in other in other tasks.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:59 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:59:12 -0500

Anybody can be great at PT with proper conditioning being a leader isn't for everyone good AFPT scores have nothing to do with it

Response by SSG Lucas Solie made Jan 30 at 2015 8:08 PM

SSG Lucas Solie — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:08:25 -0500

I personally don't believe a 300 on a PT proves you're a better Soldier or Leader. However it could show the drive and motivation in a young troop. The physical fitness test is just one form or way to asses the combat readiness of your team, platoon, company etc. I don't believe there is "One" area to pass judgement on what does or doesn't make a good Leader or Soldier

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 8:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:16:08 -0500

Does maxing your PT score make you a better leader, well, it certainly doesen't hurt you. Failing a PT test will bring you down as a leader. Being physically fit is an important aspect of being a good leader. Yes there are many aspects. But being physically fit is one of them. If the OP is getting at that physical fitness should have no impact on in how soldiers are evaluated, that is wrong. Or that the the guy getting 180 on there PT test is problably just as good a soldier as the 300 soldier I disagree. When there are army standards leaders should show the self discipline to strive to be at the top.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 8:17 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:17:20 -0500

Not everyone can score a 300 during the APFT. Every soldier needs to put a maximum effort into the APFT and not quit once you reach 70 points for an event. Lead by example do the most you can do with a little extra effort.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 8:27 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:27:05 -0500

I believe that a good leader will keep his/her team together. If the leaders runs too fast, well he/she needs to slow down because not every Soldier can run as fast and they will be left behind. Just my believe. The leader is measured by how many Soldiers he/she can get them to triumph and make them leaders.

Response by MAJ Monique Salinas made Jan 30 at 2015 8:41 PM

MAJ Monique Salinas — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:41:47 -0500

It makes you a better example. Fitness has no comparison to leadership abilities or quality Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 8:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:45:04 -0500

No because the Army is about the total Soldier concept.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 8:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 20:54:32 -0500

absolutely not, It's not about scoring a 300 on an APFT its about giving your best at the APFT and passing along with the "TOTAL SOLDIER CONCEPT". That is the problem with SOME leadership these days they believe the character of a good leader is based of the DA form 705. When in fact a true leader is one that will leader from the front, push their soldiers along with themselves to do the best they can at everything they do. A leader doesn't just take of themselves but their soldiers and soldiers FIRST then themselves LAST. and if that means they don't have a 300 but they pass along with all or most of their soldiers then that is a good leader.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 9:14 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 21:14:18 -0500

It does neither. A good soldier does his job to complete the mission best effective way possible. A leader listens, takes charge, instructs, shows soldiers how to do things, teach them. Being a pt stud means nothing wen taking fire, or loading vehicles, driving a tank, flying a helo, performing surgery. I kno several soldiers who I have severed with who haven't passed or meet the minimum that can do all that & trust my life with. Pt is good to stay in shape but for it to matter if ur a good soldier or good leader. Come on Ppl think the army didn't teach me to be a mindless drone. They taught me to figure a problem out, come up with new ideas, find easier ways to make a hard mission completed with higher results. I meet the minimum pt each yr, I try to inspire my soldiers, let them think outside the box to perform task, let them perform to the best of their ability not some gym king.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Jan 30 at 2015 9:24 PM

SPC Angel Guma — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 21:24:26 -0500

No.

Response by 1SG Nathanial Wood made Jan 30 at 2015 9:25 PM

1SG Nathanial Wood — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 21:25:09 -0500

Possibly, but I truly believe in the total Soldier concept. If you score a 300 on your APFT but are borderline illiterate and can not put together a coherent paragraph then I consider you a failure. You need to spend less time in the gym and consider using that time in an English class. If you've got a 300 APFT score but don't know the names of your Soldiers wives and children then you are a failure as a leader. If can ruck 12 miles in 2 hours, but can't tell me what AR 600-20 is then I really have no use for you in my formation. I would prefer that Soldiers balance the time they spend on their strong points to improve their weak ones.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 10:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 22:02:16 -0500

NO! I have a soldier who is on the extended scale every PT test, but struggles with every other basic soldiering skill. If you want to see there leadership skills then test THOSE skills, not how fast they can run.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 10:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 22:43:43 -0500

For some, as a leader, being able to out pace your soldiers physically is important. But, what is more important as a leader is to know the job and how to do it. If, as a leader, you don't know what is required to accomplish the mission, how can you lead soldiers to accomplishing said mission?

Being physically fit is important, but, a 300 score doesn't mean you're the best for the job.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:04 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:04:27 -0500

Of course it does.

With appropriate accommodation granted to the heroes whose personal medical circumstance prevent peak performance, maxing the APFT should be one of the many ambitions Soldiers internalize without second thought.

The APFT has almost nothing to do with push-ups and sit-ups, which in turn have nothing to do with battle. What the APFT shows is one's ability to ACHIEVE... a prerequisite to leadership.

Maxing the APFT is among the easiest feats devised by mankind. And failure to score a 300 on the APFT is a demonstration ONLY of an individual's unwillingness to do push-ups every night before bed, bang out a set of sit-ups four times a week, and run two-miles on Saturdays. If maxing your score is hard for, you'd better get to work. This is the US Army.

If you do not max the APFT, it's because you've decided not to make that your objective. And if you cannot prioritize maxing the APFT as one of the many bare minimums of Army leadership, then yes, people should question your capacity to lead.

"Should" it matter that you can't max the APFT? That question is irrelevant. The fact is that it does matter, because whether you agree with this or not, people like me judge one's performance on the APFT as a symbol for lots of other attributes.

The APFT is probably a ridiculous metric. But failure to max it is even more ridiculous.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:04 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:04:27 -0500

No. I've had good leaders that barely got 200. I've had horrible leaders that got 300+.

I hope that my Soldiers view me as a decent leader. However, I developed asthma in Iraq, and struggle to break 190 on the PT test.

Response by SPC Geoffrey Jenkins made Jan 30 at 2015 11:15 PM

SPC Geoffrey Jenkins — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:15:48 -0500

Yes,
it will make a better leadership for our soldiers to follow,I always believed that when I deployed when leaders were actually with us on our physical level.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:24:35 -0500

No, physical abilities are important, but using the mind and knowledge will get you further!

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Jan 30 at 2015 11:33 PM

SPC Angel Guma — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:33:45 -0500

On the grounds that soldiering is still a physical job, physical fitness is still definitely a requirement. But so are other qualities, such as leading from the front, being the example you want others to follow, not using your rank to crush or belittle subordinates, and so on. There are many ways to define a soldier, and there are many ways to define a leader.

I highly doubt Robert E. Lee would have been a 'PT' stud when he was at the height of his career as a General. But like it or not, he was a fine leader, and out-generaled the Union for most of the war, doing more with less. Every generation produces fine leadership in its own way. Julius Caesar was by all accounts an excellent leader in his day too. I have no doubt the US will produce equally as high caliber of leadership in future wars to come. In Caesar's time, riding around on horseback, fighting battles with swords and spears, I'm sure even the cooks would have been PT studs by our current PT test.

I think part of the problem, judging by everyone's reactions here, is not so much that PT should or shouldn't be valued, or job knowledge, but more the idea that PT scores are a 'leadership' metric by which we can judge the masses. While good Army leaders by and large will have good PT scores, this does not presuppose good leadership, or the sort of high-caliber of intelligence and sophiscation on the order of General Lee. I think we are wondering how we can mass produce 'leaders', we are already wondering a little off the beaten path.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jan 2015 23:47:06 -0500

To be a be a better, you need to set the standard on the APFT by scoring very high, not necesarily by scoring a perfect 300, but by scoring a very high score to show to your soldiers that you are fit enough to lead them into battle.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 1:27 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 01:27:04 -0500

It shows that you have a different body composition, that you spend time exercising regularly, and that you have slow twitch muscle structure. Some people don't have to work as hard as others to get to 300. I would rather spend my "extra" time learning to get smarter on making proper plans and executing them, as opposed to striving to achieve a 300. But, the military places more emphasis on physical fitness than it does in intellectual fitness. Why?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 1:45 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 01:45:21 -0500

I don't believe it makes you a better leader or Soldier but if you are a good leader already and set good goals and examples and score a 300 on your pt test and know your job you would be the average or above average NCO or Soldier other younger enlisted is looking up too!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 1:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 01:55:12 -0500

I have scored many a 300 On APFT. I have also been recognized multiple times for my leadership abilities. I have also qualified as expert with my assigned rifile, and I am great with paperwork. I am a field artilleryman and have deployed to Iraq twice. I attempt to strive in all matters.
I also have many shortcomings. I will even honestly admit that I have failed an APFT, failed to qualify on a range, and had an NCOER I have written get kicked back. Although I am a great NCO and soldier, I am a human, and I am not perfect.
What makes this relevant, is that I am self-aware. My self-awareness allows me the opportunity to better myself rather than look at my accomplishments and think, "Damn, I'might great!".
My failures not only humble me, they give me the tools to be better. As well as the tools and experiences to share with my troops to help them be better; knowing that I have been where they are, and that they can be where I am with the assistance of a little purpose, direction, and motivation.
HOAH!
SSG Adame

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 4:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 04:24:37 -0500

1SG, I think a soldier who can get a 300 vs a soldier who can not depends on the soldiers character. I know soldiers who can get 300 with no problem at all that can not lead at all but at the same time I have met some that can lead. I have also met leaders who can not score 300 that can barely pass the bare minimum that are really bad leaders as well. at the same time I have met some good ones. I have seen a lot of different troops in all sorts of different categories that can not meet standard, that can meet standard, and some that excel standard. at the end of the day i truly believe the soldiers character and how he wants to conduct business is where the leaders stand from their peers.

Response by SSG Fritz Miller made Jan 31 at 2015 5:03 AM

SSG Fritz Miller — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 05:03:58 -0500

If your APFT score is a 300 and your soldiers are failing or barely passing. There is no reason to be impressed. Before the definition of leadership was changed. (The art of infleuncing others to accomplish the mission) Influence your soldiers to score that 300 like you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 7:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 07:06:08 -0500

I am no PT stud and I have only gotten a 300 on a R-APFT once but I have found that getting a overall high PT score is just a small part of being a complete Leader and Soldier. I have known senior NCO's that score 270 or above on their APFT and look very professional in their uniform, but after talking with them I question how they were able to make it to work without help. I feel that the Army puts to much on how a Soldier looks in uniform rather than how they perform, case in point the DA Photo.

I would much rather have a Soldier beside me in battle that can shot 40 out of 40 than a Senior Leader that can run the 2 mile in under 12 minutes. You would not believe how many senior leaders we have in the Army that cannot qualify with a weapon on the first, second or even third try. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good leaders out there but I am talking about the ones that get handed a leadership position because they score a 300.

If we had the same standard for flagging a Soldier for not being able to qualify as we do for not being able to pass the APFT, we could really weed out the weak Soldiers that can not lead from the front.

In closing, we should always strive to do the very best we can but just doing good in one area of being a Soldier does not cut it. We have to strive to be the best we can be in all areas of leadership.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 7:11 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 07:11:05 -0500

Depends on job and requirements in the military. POGS don't need someone who can sprint 2 miles in 13 min or put 50 lbs on their backs and run for 12 miles but in the Infantry it's defiantly something that gives you an edge and for SF its prerequisite. Why? Because after a half day March or jump into a field exercise/joax it takes that physical endurance which ultimately affects your mental performance to do your job. Having experienced a support and now airborne infantry occupation it takes a tough individual to push as hard a combat mos' do and thrive, succeed and lead other soldiers. YES you re damn right scoring a 300 on a pt test makes you a better soldier. You could be the smartest most technical guy in your section but if you can't deliver your skills on little food and sleep with high physical demands in a stressful situation you re not worth a damn thing. For support especially in garrison sure, having a high individual skill will take you far. In the infantry though, it's not nearly your skill but how much you can exercise your work ethic on even a basic level for long periods of time that require a high level of physical endurance. I'm sure any commander would be proud to have a soldier capable of what should be a standard and having scored on the extended scale myself after hard work from just a 270 average it takes a lot of heart. anyone who says it's not a monument to our jobs as warriors is probably riding a desk and has no idea what troops in high demand go through. High physical prowess is probably a good sign of a good attitude, high output and positive work ethic. Speaking from experience from both sides, for support no its not a huge sign of a good soldier but for the soldiers that take the fight to the enemy and lead from the front know that maintaining a high level of fitness Is a prerequisite.

Infantry leads the way!!!!!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 7:55 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 07:55:56 -0500

I don't beli be you need a 300 but you should set the standard for your peers. It's sad NCO's and Officers can barely pass a PT test yet they are considered leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 8:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 08:05:31 -0500

No it doesn't not make u a good leader. Getting I 300 on your pt test makes other young soldiers want to do the same. Just because you have a 300 on your pt test doesn't mean you are a good leader.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 8:36 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 08:36:33 -0500

The U.S. Army puts too much emphasis in physical fitness and weight control. These don't measure and have anything to do with leadership and competence. I have seen a lot of good Soldiers with natural leadership and very competent put out of the Army for failing them. When I joined in 1984 we used to have the Skill Qualification Test (SQT) for NCOs. After the Army stopped using the SQT, the Army came up with the Self Development Test (SDT). The Army stopped using both tests because the failure rate was very high even though all you needed to pass was to score 70% or higher. I didn't have any trouble with either one of these tests. I always scored 90% or higher on my tests. Instead of making NCOs work harder to meet the standard, the Army eliminated the standard.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:07:01 -0500

No I don't think it does, however it does show you have the willingness to go exceed the standard. But let me ask this just because some one is extremely knowledgable at there MOS does it mean leadership should look the other way when it comes to him being overweight and hasn't taken a APFT since I gog to this unit two years ago.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:38 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:38:28 -0500

Well in some cases maybe, but I think for the most part it doesn't it might make you a bit cocky, its all about the attitude and discipline of the person. And whether or not he or she can get the soldiers to follow them. Cause with out the soldiers the leaders are done career wise.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:39 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:39:14 -0500

The same could be asked about shooting expert-as singular events no they don't make u a better leader. The number of Soldiers who are physically gifted enough to score a 300 is small. There are quite a few that have to invest time to get better and achieve a 300. While this in no way makes you a better leader, it shows your willing to take steps to improve yourself and is part of the whole a Soldier concept.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:47 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:47:56 -0500

It boils down as to what you do with the 300 score..

If you are you going to use it to motivate, lead and help others achieve or exceed the standard, then the answer is YES.

If you do it just to check the block for your evaluations, get the PT badge, look pretty, but forget about caring for your soldiers and your mission... then the answer is "NO".

I agree with most of the discussions below, gives me the comfort that we have NCOs and young officers who understand that leadership encompasses many soldier competencies, PT though, and important one among many others.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:48:46 -0500

I don't think a 300 makes you a better Soldier, however I do believe that you should strive to have atleast a 270 average and ensure your physical capability is well rounded. You can't lead PT or conduct physically demanding training if 70% of your Soldiers are more physically fit than you. I mean sure, you could remain in an "instructor" role and have the Soldiers do the training as you supervise, but the outcome is always better when the Leader participates.
I train twice a day and live a very physical lifestyle, but don't look down on anyone who doesn't walk the same path. If you don't know your job and aren't physically fit, I will make you feel like the sorry sack of XXXX that you are...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 10:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 10:20:10 -0500

Nope! No one quality does that. It's usually a combination of desired qualities (apft, charisma, intelligence, experience, heart, etc, etc etc )

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 11:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 11:20:26 -0500

I don't think it is the only indicator of a good Soldier, but it definitely is one of them. I've noticed that a Soldier that puts in the effort to obtain the 300 or extended scale usually has the discipline to put in the effort in the other areas like marksmanship, navigation, tactics, knowledge etc to develop them to a higher level. I've also noticed that those that denigrate the high APFT Soldiers usually are the mediocre 2nd and 3rd class whom are unwilling to put in the effort to improve. These are the Soldiers that are always asking what are the minimums to pass.

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Jan 31 at 2015 11:20 AM

SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 11:20:56 -0500

Negative, it makes you a stud...which leads to you "looking" like a better leader sometimes, perception is indeed reality. It is a known fact that those in great shape carry themselves with a certain attitude which is often emulated a great leader...I do know some who were able to get a 300 with no effort but were never going to be any kind of leader so based ONLY of the PT Test, you cannot choose a leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 11:43 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 11:43:26 -0500

The APFT is an event that soldiers are measured in. Having a high score looks good. But PT doesn't make you a leader or a good soldier. Being fit is necessary to be a soldier but is by no means the whole package.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 12:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 12:13:13 -0500

A 300 doesn't make you a good leader or soldier to me. It does though show me ones determination to be the best physically by the standards governed by army regulation. 20 years in the Army most of it in infantry units, I have never seen a person get a 300 just by doing unit PT. They did extra after hours to get there. I was a 300 for years and busted to be the best physically, then I was on a profile and couldn't do PT at all. Doesn't mean anything directly but shows one has motivation to better ones self and I like that. Now a good leader will is one who can provide a program where all of his soldiers continue to better their pt score and are motivated to be the best. If you can provide enough positive motivation to where all of your subordinates can or desire to achieve a 300 then you are a good leader. Because those who say that some just can't do it because they weren't built that way is an excuse. No medical evidence through any studies back tha.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 12:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 12:21:29 -0500

No. It just makes you better at pt.

Response by SFC James High made Jan 31 at 2015 1:26 PM

SFC James High — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 13:26:59 -0500

Absolutely not. In today's Army you need brains and common sense. A Soldier must be in shape, any one can see that, but does a 300 score make someone a better Soldier, in no way shape or form.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 31 at 2015 3:01 PM

SPC James Mcneil — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 15:01:30 -0500

It makes you more physically fit. IMO, it does no more.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 3:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 15:16:24 -0500

To score a 300 does help some, but does not mean anything if you do not know how to lead soldiers. I have heard that promotion to SGT and above should be based on a written test. I would say to an extent that has some merit; however as a NCO to not have any ability to communicate with your soldiers make you not good for the core we are a part of. All soldiers have issues and a 300 pt score does not mean you can handle that professionally. It should help to motivate your troops to be better. It would bother me and I have seen it myself that a substandard NCO counseled a soldier for not scoring high enough on a PT test. And the soldier outscored the NCO across the board.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 5:50 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 17:50:25 -0500

Not at all. Most of my best NCOs do not get 300 apft scores. In reverse, some of the worst NCOs are the apft maxers. The apft is an arbitrary number used to praise and or demean soldiers. It's a necessary metric, I get it, it shouldn't however be the sole basis for judging a good or bad leader/soldier.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 6:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 18:12:14 -0500

I think a passing PT test says more than being a PT stud. Quality soldiers are balanced with knowledge, skill and physical ability. I look no different upon a profile than an and extedned scale pl test.

Response by SFC Derek Ashman made Jan 31 at 2015 8:14 PM

SFC Derek Ashman — Sat, 31 Jan 2015 20:14:43 -0500

I known soldiers who scored 300 on apft but could not comprehend basic soldier skills.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 12:15 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 12:15:11 -0500

I say yes due to the favourably actions of the army but my personal feelings are no I rather have a fat guy who knows his job as pose a fit fighting machine that can't get my equipment working properly I'm n signal how would u feel if u was in combat with a fit soldier and couldn't work the radio but that fat soldier u kicked to the side is the best in the world bet you would change your mind real quick

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 2:41 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 14:41:28 -0500

No. Simply because the APFT tests three events that have no relevance to real life or combat.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 2:50 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 14:50:06 -0500

Its a component of being a good leader. A true 300 + on the APFT (not pencil whipped) means that leader should be able to assist his/her Soldiers into better shape.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 3:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 15:36:01 -0500

The APFT is still just push-ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run. It is a test that can be studied for. You could pose the same question for marksmanship, correspondence courses, college degree, time in grade, time in service, and everything else we consider in our promotion points calculation. The system isn't immune to "gaming" and I've known far too many people that I've had to describe as "Well, he's a PT stud, but....."

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 5:50 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 17:50:13 -0500

I knew a few in my day that would go do extra gym time in the afternoon in lieu of doing their job. Yep, those guys always scored 300+ on the APFT and got an excellence block on their NCOERs, but both of them took it too far. They put themselves over their work and themselves over their soldiers every day. One made it all the way to 1SG before he realized he was a horrible manager and even worse leader. He continued the gym thing in Iraq and ended up getting moved to a BN S3 Ops NCO position and they moved a SFC (P) to the First Sergeant position. Although no one discussed what had happened, those that knew him for a while knew why he was moved.

In my eyes, Soldiers and Leaders (some that are both) have got to balance between mental and physical fitness, military knowledge, experience, civilian education, leadership, trust, upholding ethical and moral standards, mentoring and coaching. This is a dynamic process that differs in each setting a person is in, and is managed differently by each individual, some of course better at it than others. The focus also changes throughout your day, week, month, career, life, etc. My two-cents anyway.

And although the two I mentioned were NCOs, some Warrant Officers and Officers are just as guilty of this. I didn't want to give anyone the wrong impression of my take on the backbone of the Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 11:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 23:30:37 -0500

Yes and no, I think maintaining your fitness level to Army standards and doing well in all areas will motivate your soldiers. I've also been on deployment and felt very broken from all the physical activity and not wanting to do much once home to keep in shape. This is where you have to dig deep and try to be a good influence on your fellow soldiers. I am not a good runner but once I finish I run back and bring the rest of my group in somehow there is energy left in me for that. I rather a soldier be well rounded and skilled in their mos and have compassion for one another and drive to complete the mission. Btw, I could ruck for miles on end no problem so a good run score doesn't always add up to a good foot soldier cause I've out rucked many make pt studs, it's the ability to pull deep.

Response by SSG Marco Mancilla made Feb 2 at 2015 12:21 AM

SSG Marco Mancilla — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 00:21:38 -0500

none it makes you a well fit Soldier. Caracter is what makes a Soldier.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 1:04 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 01:04:02 -0500

Honestly, I think that a 300 PT score is a great achievement. As far as making someone a better soldier/leader, I would have to say no. If someone is a bad apple, no amount of PT will change that person. He/she has to be willing to better themselves in their field. PT doesn't make the soldier, the leaders of said and the soldier him/herself does.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 1:26 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 01:26:02 -0500

Getting a 300 on a PT test doesn't necessarily make you a good leader or Soldier, but it does show that you are dedicated to fitness. In my opinion, knowing how to do your job is much more important than being able to a lot of PT. PT is important in its own way but it should not be the one thing that gets people promoted or recognized.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 6:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 06:10:15 -0500

This question is subjective only in that there are those of the mindset that a "300" APFT is the ONLY measure of leadership ability. There were those that would say that a 300 PT stud, or the 40/40 expert, could never "do wrong" or even be rapists. Facts have proven that theory of leadership utterly false at this time, as I can attest from being a UVA. The APFT is a measure of an individual's self discipline, but it doesn't mean that the Soldier who no matter how hard they try can only break a 225 is less a leader. The Army keeps talking of the "whole Soldier" concept. Does that same 300 PT stud spend as much time trying to help others achieve the same score, or are they so self-centered that they espouse the idea that others should constantly feel graced to be in the same country as them? If it is the former, then yes, they are a leader because they want to make the whole team better. Unfortunately, there are more of the mindset of the latter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 9:51 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 09:51:37 -0500

I think like all things a high PT score is a indicator of a good Soldier and Leader.. However, it should not be the defining factor in one's assessment of quality or not.

Response by CSM Carlson C. made Feb 2 at 2015 10:26 AM

CSM Carlson C. — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:26:45 -0500

Nope, not at all. It just sets a good example for those around you. I had a commander back in the day that would only give full commanders point on promotion point work sheets if the Soldier had a PT score of 250 or above. The thing was he'd take it out of leadership. I asked him whats the difference between somebody who bust their hump for a 249 and someone that barely tries and gets a 270? He gave me a lame excuse of when he was in ROTC... I just gave him the dear in the headlights look... A leader is someone that can look and think outside the box to reach their subordinates to accomplish whatever mission is given to them. That leader should instill physical fitness, but I think too much emphasis is given to being a PT stud. I've seen plenty of studs, male and female who where absolute crappy leaders and people who sucked at PT but their Soldiers would follow them off a cliff. I'm not saying PT isn't important, but I don't feel that leadership ability should not be measured by PT alone. If we nurtured leadership as much as much as we did for physical fitness, we'd have a viably different military than we did right now. Albeit a wonderfully better military with more leaders that connected with their troops/sailors/airmen/marines.....

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 12:48 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 12:48:03 -0500

No. That is only one part of being a leader. Rank does not distinguish leadership either. The Arny needs to get away from this stigma of having a 300 on an APFT automatically makes you a leader. What makes a leader is the ability to train, lead, motivate, coach , counsel, and mentor your subordinates in such a way that they succeed. I myself have seen several seniors never score a 300 APFT but were some of the best NCO's I have ever had the pleasure of serving with. I have also seen several "leaders" who consistently scored a 300 and couldn't tell you the first thing about what it means to be a leader, the effectiveness of leadership on their troopers, or how to teach their subordinates what the need to know to become the next rank. I'm short they didn't know squat about their own MOS. So, no it does not give you an automatic go on being a better leader. I'd rather have somebody that would be able to carry my butt out of a firefight if I were hurt than some dude that can run two miles in twelve minutes. Common sense people.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 1:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:55:55 -0500

In the aspect of physical fitness and Military bearing, yes it makes you a better Soldier because you out the effort into keeping yourself higher then the minimum standard. It also makes you a leader by default because you're setting the standard higher for you're subordinates and sometimes your peers. But that's where it ends.

Response by COL John McClellan made Feb 2 at 2015 2:59 PM

COL John McClellan — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 14:59:02 -0500

Interesting question! It's a benchmark that equates to a "maximum" score, so in that light it reflects a leader's commitment to Excellence and Leading By Example. Having said that, if you are the kind of leader that attains the 300, you are already likely dedicated to these things, so getting that score probably doesn't make you better, but it's an outward sign that you take Army standards and your leadership role seriously. But if you are someone who has struggled with your physical fitness or some one aspect of it (as represented by the 3 events) and you set yourself the goal of improving that, then sure - pursuing it is a leadership development journey in-and-of-itself, and, especially if you do it in a way that engages your team!!

Response by Sheryl Verhulst made Feb 2 at 2015 5:01 PM

Sheryl Verhulst — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 17:01:06 -0500

No, but I'd trust there'd be a higher probability of the individual being able to survive the physical stresses of combat. I'd rather not wait around for a "fatbody" to catch up with the rest of us (even if he was a good leader) and thereby increasing my likely-hood of being injured or worse (in said hypothetical situation)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 5:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 05:56:08 -0500

Heck no. It might help you run from the enemy faster. But that is an individual task. It has nothing to do with being a better Leader. You can see a good Leader from a mile away. Not just a PT score. with that being said...a good Soldier is always striving for that 300 and will obtain it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 3:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 15:36:52 -0500

In itself, no, it doesn't make you any better of a leader or Soldier. However, when combined with other great qualities, outstanding PT sets you apart. Regardless of your MOS, you are a Soldier first. As a Soldier, you are expected to be in excellent physical shape and be a trained killer. If you are a leader and you're no good at PT, how can you expect to ensure up and coming Soldiers leaders are any good at their PT? All this does is open the grounds for lower and more relaxed standards for generations to come. I'm a huge advocate of PT. I'm also a huge advocate of kicking people who don't meet the requirements of AR 600-9 out of our ranks. The Army is thinning down right now; don't let PT be the reason you're on the chopping block.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 10:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 22:12:04 -0500

I think people believe it does. Higher ups look at you and treat you differently (in a good way) I will say you are a good example when this happen. But as a well rounded leader? No.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 11:31 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 11:31:04 -0500

No it does not make you a better Soldiers. Lets not forget what makes a Soldiers it is all the standards not just some. Scoring a 300 makes you better physically fit, does that mean that you can lead or fallow, does it meant that it makes you better at all the over 100 task that are impose on you No it Does Not. This is why all the Arm Forces have there own competition to determine this fact. The Army Has the Best Warrior Competition (BWC) where Soldiers compete to become the best of the best and I have been on many Boards where Soldier max the PT but did not do so well on the other events.
So the answer is no it just contributes to you becoming Best of the best and making you a better Soldier

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 11:57 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 11:57:54 -0500

300 is a great thing to reach for but that does not show true character of a soldier, physical fitness is important but that is only one peace of a puzzle

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 5:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 17:57:41 -0500

After some thought and converse with other service members I've come to this; if you think of the best leader that you've ever had who was not able to achieve a 300, would that leader be any better if they were able to score a 300?

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 4 at 2015 8:35 PM

MSG Scott McBride — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:35:05 -0500

No, it does not.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 8:39 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 08:39:08 -0500

In my opinion a 300 on a PT test is not what make a good leader, and scoring a 180 on a PT test does not make a bad leader. What makes a good leader is the ability to lead, respect, motivate, teach, and mentor young soldiers to push themselves past what they thought they could accomplish and become more than just someone who is in the military to collect a pay check. However, I do feel that physical fitness plays a major role in the military, and all soldiers and leaders should strive to better them selves in all aspects of training. If a soldier wants to progress in the military and be promoted increasing there PT score is one of the easiest ways to show determination, motivation, and discipline to those personnel that are not around them, or work with them everyday, because there is no grey area in a PT score. With that being said it takes a lot to be a great leader and physical fitness is just a small portion of that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 1:34 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 13:34:30 -0500

Not even remotely. I have known plenty of soldiers that could max the pt test, that weren't worth a damn.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 1:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 13:55:21 -0500

No 1SG, I don't believe so. To me and from my experience it means you are only in great physical condition. I had the pleasure of serving with a 300 pt stud 12 years ago, and although he could score over 300 on a pt test he proved to be undisciplined, and possessed poor soldering skills that couldn't be corrected through counseling. Unfortunately there were those in the command who saw him as a great soldier because of his pt stud status.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 2:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:05:23 -0500

It is proven that exercise makes one far less prone to physical injury/illness. Exercise is also proven to reduce stress/fatigue. The key is to give maximum effort, not feel sorry for yourself, or worry about the natural athlete/poor leader 330 score blah blah. Soldier, firefighter, politician, schoolteacher..who cares..stay in shape if you value your life.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 2:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:14:59 -0500

I do not think a 300 makes a better soldier. It just shows their physical abilities. A better soldier is someone who is willing to learn from mistakes, and learn from those with more experience. Always trying to do better and make others better around him/her.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 6:50 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 18:50:26 -0500

Not really. You can still be a total f*cktard and get a 300 on pt. Being strong soldiers is important but you gotta have a brain.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2015 10:42 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 10:42:01 -0500

Most of the best soldiers i know more often than not barely pass their PT test. Not saying that we should always settle for the minimum, but i think that we just need to make sure we have that check in the box and focus on the non-quantifiable as those make better leaders than somebody who can out PT their soldiers.

Nearly all of the best leadership i have had, have been people that pass the APFT, but never really score above a 240. Most of the worst leadership I've had have been the people that score well over 300 on their APFT. I want to call this a spurious correlation, but it's hard to ignore mounting repeat experiences shoring up my suspicions.

Response by SPC Nicholas Cureton made Feb 6 at 2015 10:55 AM

SPC Nicholas Cureton — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 10:55:25 -0500

I never scored a 300, I could run like the wind but was less spectacular on my push-ups. I was the go to guy when my unit needed things done. 300 looks great on paper, but the good Lord made some people smart, some people strong, and a few people both.

Response by MIDN 2/C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 11:58 PM

MIDN 2/C Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:58:15 -0500

I would say YES and NO. In the Marine Corps, PT and appearance is everything. I couldn't fathom stepping in front of Marines with a lesser PFT score and trying to earn their respect. It wouldn't be impossible but it would be a lot harder. But also,it depends on the age of the leader, I wouldn't expect an older Marine who's body may have paid the toll of his career to be pushing a 300. I don't think a leader needs a perfect score, but it should be in the 275+ range to show they have the commitment to maintain themselves and set the example.

Response by MAJ Mark Wilson made Feb 18 at 2015 1:46 PM

MAJ Mark Wilson — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:46:05 -0500

Like most are saying, no. But it is an indicator of someones drive and physical abilities. Everything must be taken into consideration. I would also say a low score might be a red flag. You have to lead from the front and falling out of runs is a good way to loose respect in a hurry. The Army has always placed an emphasis on physical fitness. I was an offensive lineman in college and always a big guy. I never maxed my run, but always strived to max the PU and SU. Could I have maxed my run? Probably with additional training and weight loss. Throw on a ruck and give me a 240B and lets go. Plenty of light weight 300s APFTers can't hang. Combat stress, lack of sleep and food, opens another area. That's when you need people to perform and lead.

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Feb 28 at 2015 3:31 PM

SSG Peter Muse — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:31:04 -0500

My pencil bullet for the NCOs I rated was excellence for helping 3 soldiers max the PT test. Helping others makes a great leader

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 3:42 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:42:40 -0500

Not really, I mean to be a good leader its all about knowledge and experience, but to be a good soldier and more for us 11Bravos me most need to be in good condition.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 5:44 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 17:44:28 -0500

I think it is something to strive for, regardless, but it is meaningless by itself. I have had my fair share of struggles with PT but by the same token I have seen people who I'd previously discounted as "meat heads" turn out to be great junior leaders.

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Mar 1 at 2015 6:18 PM

SPC David Shaffer — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:18:43 -0500

No it does not. At times it does show their motivation and what type of soldier they are though. When I left for Benning I was 129 LB's but I pushed myself and always maxed push ups and run. I am not genetically predisposed to athletic genes. I believe it is important for any leader to have the drive and ambition to push themselves to be the best they can be. There is no true test to show leaders/good soldiers from the bad to be honest. Despite my genetics, I have made myself a leader. There are just too many factors above physical condition that are way more important.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 7:32 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:32:42 -0500

Being a good leader is not being just good with physical fitness. Physical fitness it very important but we have 11 leadership principals and 14 leadership traits for a reason. These show us what is expected of us as a leader of Marines.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 7:50 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:50:06 -0500

I consistently score between 225 and 250 on the APFT. To score a 300 at my age, the effort I would have to put in would mean that much less time practicing my craft. Anyone wanting to call me a bad leader and expecting me to take them seriously needs to last two 90-second rounds in the taekwondo ring with me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 3:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:24:10 -0400

No, overall the apft does not reflect the potential a soldier or leader can possess. Plenty of times a PT "stud" can't perform as well on certain endurance challenging tasks likes ruck marches. I believe performing strong on the PT test reflects the soldier doing what is asked from them from the Army, staying physically fit to act upon when called upon.

Being physically fit as a leader does influence or motivate other soldiers to achieve a physical readiness they themselves possess.

I ask from my peers the ability to pass without worry as Army standards are easily achievable as long as they are committed to continue their military career.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Mar 19 at 2015 2:17 AM

SGT John Wesley — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 02:17:22 -0400

No, although being physically fit is always a good thing, being a top dog in PT doesn't make you a top soldier. It takes a well rounded soldier to excel at all facets of a military career.

Response by 1SG Wayne Harvin made Mar 19 at 2015 2:51 AM

1SG Wayne Harvin — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 02:51:44 -0400

No by getting a 300 on your apft doesn't make you a better soldier it just proves you're in good condition it don't make you a better leader that comes with experience

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Apr 1 at 2015 7:02 AM

PFC Mike Mcdermott — Wed, 01 Apr 2015 07:02:41 -0400

I served during peacetime and I was a terrible garrison soldier. That being said, I always shot Expert, I always got over 290 on the APFT (got my badge, too), and I served on the Division orienteering team before I went to Scouts.

Everybody I knew with that lame ass badge was a dickhead (somebody probably thought I was one too). It gets in the way of how you interact with your fellow soldiers.

Response by CPT Tony Rose made Apr 1 at 2015 7:03 AM

CPT Tony Rose — Wed, 01 Apr 2015 07:03:22 -0400

No, fuck no, he'll fuck no. Of the top 50 worst leaders I had to deal with in a 20 year career 49 were PT studs. Their ego made them unbearable. They were unprofessional bullies who could not do their jobs and had no idea how to lead Soldiers yet were always the golden boy of the unit because they made the unit look good on paper. They consistently fostered a culture of exclusion and hero worship which was cultivated thru their PT score. Most got away with crimes and received the best assignments simply due to their PT score. This is all from first hand observation.

Response by SGT Neil Doty made Apr 1 at 2015 7:11 AM

SGT Neil Doty — Wed, 01 Apr 2015 07:11:35 -0400

It doesn't make you a better leader i had a sfc that was a very good leader and barley passed pt test. I always scored high numbers on pt test and i was a good leader not because of it but because i had good mentors through my years so i guess to answer question no it doesn't.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:36 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:36:36 -0400

The whole APFT is shrewd and obsolete...While endurance is a needed factor. Where on the battlefield will you need to do pushups or sit-ups... I have seen soldiers that can make a 300 on the APFT, but cannot carry their pack on a road march. During my career, it seemed that this was the benchmark for promotions. You can do everything else well but if you failed your test, you are flagged and can not receive any favorable actions. It didn't matter if you had a BS, MS, or PhD and was well educated in your job as a 30 year old person. Some 20 year old Yahoo with a 300 APFT is now your squad leader but cant tell you the first thing about the job. How can someone without the experience be a leader? Leadership is someone that can motivate you without threatening you. Leadership is being able to explain and demonstrate your job. Leadership is being resourceful and not knowing all of the answers, but knowing where to find them.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 2:24 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:24:04 -0400

Short answer, no. To assess a soldier or leader you must look at the person as a collective of skills, resources, knowledge, and the ability to hand all of that off to the next soldier/leader. Physical Fitness is on small part of the whole. Given two soldiers/leaders with different pt scores but otherwise identical in every other facet it is obvious the one with the higher pt score is better, but only better at scoring higher on a pt test nothing more. There is a false notion that if you can pt you can do anything. I've worked along side PT stud medics, and have not been impressed (frankly scared) by their clinical judgement, but they are revered as the "doc" to go to. This has serious implications in my line of work, and I am sure it is not special to the medical side of the military.

The best preventative medicine is good marksmanship and clean socks.

Response by SPC N Z made Apr 8 at 2015 2:57 PM

SPC N Z — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:57:44 -0400

I actually have "Excellent APFT Achievement" on my civilian resume and I get an interview 90% of the time. Physical fitness lead to better performance in academics and work.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 3:10 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:10:02 -0400

In a round about way, yes, I think that it does? Are there 300+ pt studs out there that dumb as rocks? Yes! I've worked with several over the years. Are there AMAZING Soldiers that struggle to even pass the APFT? Yes! What a 300 on an APFT tells me is that this particular Soldier possesses a great work ethic, that they care about doing well and being successful and that this Soldier is fit and ready for duty no matter what the task is! Personally, I have never scored a 300 but that is also what motivates me. I want to max my PT test, I want to set an example for my Soldiers. I want them to see that if this "old" LT can out run me or do more push-ups or sit-ups that they feel challenged to improve their scores on the next test.

On the opposite side of that aisle: I have worked with Soldiers who technically proficient and among the best at their jobs HOWEVER they did not meet the Army's height/weight standards and consistently failed their APFT tests or, at best, struggle to meet the bare minimum. While they did contribute to the overall success of the units mission I also felt like they could bring the esprit de corps of the unit down because they would inevitably be sour about taking the pt test, adding derogatory (or at least less than positive) opinions to conversations ushering in an always palpable tension around other Soldiers who had passed. Even personally, I would sometimes feel guilty about sharing that I had set a personal best on push-ups or two mile run around these individuals. Should I have felt guilty? No. However, it's one of those things where you feel you have to bite your tongue. This sour attitude seemed to have a negative effect on the environment that fellow/subordinate Soldiers worked in.

So, yes, I do thing that a 300, or at least a high score on the APFT is one indicator of a better Soldier/Leader.

Lead by example!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 3:53 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:53:09 -0400

yes and no... Having a top score on the APFT sets the example for your soldiers and shows that you are physically fit. Its shows that there is a high level of commitment.

If I have two soldiers who are practically equal as far as competence and character and I'm going to promote one soldier over the other, it'll be the soldier with the highest PT score. Not because they can score 300, but because they are more likely (than the solider/leader who is just meeting the standard) to push their soldiers and keep them physically fit and combat ready. Its not about what they can do, but what they have the potential to do for their soldiers and the Army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 3:53 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:53:32 -0400

I think that the APFT, and scoring well above average on it, are indicators of your level of dedication, determination, self-discipline, etc. However, it's just one metric. My question as a commander would be whether or not that same strategy/approach is applied to all the other areas of Soldiering/leadership.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:09 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:09:55 -0400

It makes you a better Soldier, since probably less than 5% of Soldiers score a 300 on the APFT. A better leader? No! But what about those "leaders" who never even take the APFT (ARNG) and discharge Soldiers for APFT or HT/WT failure? The opposite is also true here.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:10:06 -0400

I have a service connected disability, I get told way to often that I need to raise my pt score to set a better example. I meet army standards just because up sit up 100 times don't mean that when it comes time to pull your battle buddy out of the line of fire you will be able to or have the common since to make a logical decision. So NO scoring 300 on the pt test doesn't make you a better leader.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:32 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:32:04 -0400

No. 300 is just a number to ATTEMPT to quantify physical fitness. Leadership is so much more than a number and physical fitness, though important, is not a beginning or end to leadership. Rather, fitness is just making sure you can do your duty when called to do it. Leadership is the ability to make others WANTING to be like you and good leadership makes others want to follow you, and more times than not physical fitness is towards the bottom of the list of what soldiers look for in good leaders.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:39 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:39:02 -0400

In and of itself, no it doesn't. However it is definitely part of the package. In most cases it is an indicator of self-discipline for instance, as we all know that organized unit-level PT does not create entire units of 300-plus scores. Having achieved it myself on every PT test over the past 24 years I know how much of my own time and energy I devote to that.

Does it 'make' you a better leader? Well having come from the Infantry Branch I was inculcated with the principle that I should never ask my soldiers to do something I couldn't or wouldn't do myself. So in that sense, it makes you a credible leader if nothing else. On the flipside, if a commander jacks up his subordinate leadership because they have too many PT failures under their purview....yet that commander can barely pass the APFT himself....well I'd say that this makes him a lousy commander.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:55 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:55:49 -0400

Absolutely not, we should never confuse the ability to lead and soldier with physical ability.

I know plenty of people that can do super well on the APFT 300 plus but would get lost in a barn without a GPS and can't hit a 50 meter target either. So much for soldiering.

As far as leading is concerned, there are those I wouldn't follow one step on both sides of the 300 coin. Some as senior or more so than me.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:13 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:13:38 -0400

Discipline to get a 300 score. In of itself is a good start concerning your leadership abilities.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:16 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:16:53 -0400

This is only one piece of the puzzle folks. The SM gets an 'exceeds' in this area. What does the rest of the NCOER say about this Soldier? His peers and leadership? Hopefully the rater and senior rater are competent enough to paint the total soldier in their evaluation. I have known too many SMs with great PT scores but no other redeeming qualities. Good leaders have the uncomfortable conversations to square away soldiers and attempt to solve issues, rather than kick the can down the road for others to fix. Even if it is a requirement for the position to be extremely fit, this is but a glimpse of what makes up a great SM.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:18 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:18:17 -0400

A 300 PFT surely adds 10 IQ points, and the admiration of your peers...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:41:05 -0400

No. It doesn't even make you a stronger soldier. I know ppl knocking 300 couldn't even lift a 30lb dumbbell in the gym. Can't even bench their body weights or squat 2x their body weight. But I still give my props to whoever can run those 13 min or less 2 miles. But to answer your main question no it certainly does not. However it's a great tool to have if you already a good leader and soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:41:41 -0400

Scoring does not make a better soldier. However scoring a 300 on your apft is a good accomplishment for a leader to have and set the example for your soldiers. As a leader you should be mentoring your soldiers to strive for excellece. You can't expect your soldiers to strive for excellence if you don't set the example.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:41 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:41:50 -0400

No. It might show you are above standard on being physically fit, and are motivated to make yourself better, but that doesn't make you a better soldier. Want to test a soldier? Test on leadership potential and qualities, ability to motivate others around you, and being proficient in your job.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:42:19 -0400

First of all the APFT is the worst way to measure physical fitness, and no a 300 APFT to me means the SM can do well on the APFT, which in combat with full kit are you gonna run 2 miles or do 100 pushups or situps, the answer is no, thenphysical ability to carry a comrade out of the line of fire or carry a double basic load w kit for 12 hours or longer and still have the mental and physical ability to absorb information and make timely decisions , i have seen SM score a 300 on APFT and fall down and not be able to function for a day or sometimes 2. So as an army requirement the soldiers train for the APFT every day. When in actuality they should be trainging for combat, yes i can hear the responses al ready "im not an ground pounder or a ranger. ". Well we are all infantry to start out. So am i saying a SM should not be in shape no i am not. They should be but the APFT does not transpose to the rest of the soldiers abilities to do their job and be a competent leader

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:49 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:49:31 -0400

No it is not. It is a tool for Commanders to assess the readiness of their soldiers. It is up to the individual soldier to ensure they maintain their physical fitness. The APFT should be a measuring stick for soldiers fitness not a measuring stick of the soldier.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:37 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:37:34 -0400

In my opinion the APFT should not be a measure of how good of a soldier or leader you are. It is a measure used to have a cutoff. The APFT is an exam that has its flaws, one being that it is up to the discretion of the grader if you actually completed a repetition (the human error factor). This one person can determine how your evaluation folder looks if you fail one of the sections in the APFT (mainly pushups or situps.) The point I'm getting to is the APFT is just a standardize test used to have a cutoff, especially for those who need to get into a specialized school. (e.g. airborne, ranger, pathfinder) A good soldier and leader is measured by the decisions they make and what they do to improve themselves in their off-time (basically professional development.) This can include starting or finishing a college degree, getting into the gym to improve over all strength, speed, and stamina or rebuild worn or sore muscles, mastering newly implemented military regulations, etc. My physical readiness, mental readiness, and abilities to work as a team with my military family will determine if I am a good soldier and leader. Also, I will continue to be in the top 90% of my APFT scale because it it my responsibility to do so, until the Army changes this test. My comment is not an excuse for me to complain or slack off in my physical readiness to the Army.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:43 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:43:50 -0400

There should be a balance. Physical fitness helps an individual deal wit stress. Additionally, it demonstrates some level of self discipline. That being stated I have seen very fast runners (10 min two milers) not be able hump their gear, move an injured buddy, or was terrible at organization and basic leadership.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:48 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:48:50 -0400

No...i think a well rounded leader should get a respectable score...at least 250 to 270ish...but 300 does no one any good if they cant do their jobs....or if they are a leader who couldnt lead their way out of a wet paper bag...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:57:29 -0400

Not at all. A Soldier is measured in many ways. Leadership in no way is indicated by one scoring a 300 on a Physical Fitness Test. If this were the case, I don't think we would have many to stand before the ranks. Leadership is and always will be much more that the perfect PT score.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:09 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:09:51 -0400

No! I know plenty of "PT studs" that will pull a 300 during text day but during a combat mission leave their ammo or weapon in the barracks or AO!

& most wouldn't have the heart to stand tall on the battlefield, physically strong but mentally weak!

But they are the 1st to get promoted. Our leaders must change this trend ASAP or good soldiers will continue to suffer.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:49:20 -0400

A resounding NO! One of the best Soldiers I ever supervised had a lot of trouble even passing the APFT, no matter what I did to encourage him, but when it came time to get the job done he was always the first one there, last one gone and always looking for the next task that needed doing.

That said, a 300 on the APFT is a good example to others, but it does not, by itself, make one a better Soldier/Leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 8:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:04:10 -0400

Of course it does! As leaders we must set the example. If I score a 300, my guys will want to as well. Not to mention, we put so much emphasis on PT, why aren't we holding each other to the highest standards? Any leader who says otherwise is a coward and will only get bare minimum out of their Soldiers.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 8:34 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:34:35 -0400

absolutely not...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 8:35 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:35:00 -0400

Giving a 100% will make you a better soldier or leader. If you your leadership can't tell when you give a 100% then they have failed.

Response by SPC Matthew Cournoyer made Apr 8 at 2015 10:50 PM

SPC Matthew Cournoyer — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:50:21 -0400

I don't believe a 300 makes you a better soldier, there are too many variables in build, body type and gender, to truly make any one person's pt test relate to another.

I've read through many of these answers and it keeps bringing me back to another question. A question that we may need to be asking instead of this question.

Would we rather have soldiers who are proficient at their job but a little heavy and slow, or would we rather have a soldier who gets lost trying to write their name but can score 300+ on a pt test?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:01:10 -0400

Part of being a soldier is being at peak fitness. Being at peak fitness makes it easier to accomplish out mission with a reduced chance of injury or failure. Being a leader means we lead from the front, how can we expect our Soldiers to be fit if we do not expect the same for ourselves. The answer is yes, it's not the only part of being a leader and by itself it does not mean you are a good leader or a good Soldier, but it is an aspect of both.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:06:34 -0400

Absolutely not.

While it can be an indicator of your drive and determination to put forth your greatest effort in your military service. It is only ONE indicator. If can't perform you trained MOS skills, you're nothing but an athlete posing as a Soldier. You're trained to fight and perform additional skills...

Leadership is not defined by a single character strength... and I'm tired of hearing certain people try to claim otherwise. Look at the total Soldier, not just their athletic prowess... or would you prefer that we had a bunch of stupid muscle-heads that can do push-ups all day, but get lost on their way to the parking lot?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:28 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:28:49 -0400

The hard work and dedication a soldier puts in in order to achieve a 300 makes them a better soldier. Being in shape does help in the battle field I would think. Instead of catching up or needing time to catch your breath you could be calling up a sitrep, directing troops or calling for fire, which could mean life or death. Let's face it you do have to be strong in order to carry a full battle load and kit but how often do you have to run 2 miles in combat.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:49 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:49:19 -0400

No, but most of the time if the person train himself hard to score 300 on the APFT that said a lot about his work ethic and dedication already. On the other hand a leader that can managing his soldiers well but can't even keeping his weight under control so can he even define as a leader?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 12:15 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 00:15:54 -0400

Absolutely not. I know Infantryman who weigh 140lbs that max everything yet couldn't pull even a 160lb man out of a hot spot. No functional strength whatsoever.

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Apr 9 at 2015 1:05 AM

CW2 Eric Scott — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:05:13 -0400

I think it is a perfect way to conduct a mandatory physical fitness assessment while allowing junior NCOs to take the reins on executing the event from start to end.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 1:20 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:20:58 -0400

The APFT score has for far too long been misconstrued as a measure of a leader. I have met Soldiers who spent more time and focus on the gym than the mission. Excellent Soldiers with a solid and consistent 240 range score were over looked by PT enthusiast leadership as mediocre. While Soldiers whose only real accomplishments lie in PT are hailed as heroes. In wartime this is extremely dangerous. Just tragic.

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Apr 9 at 2015 1:30 AM

CPT Chris Loomis — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:30:46 -0400

While I don't believe that a 300 APFT makes you a good Soldier I do believe it helps one.

Just because you can push down the earth like Chuck Norris or do sit ups like Jack Lalane (I might've just dated myself) or can run like Forest Gump doesn't make you a good Soldier.

I last scored pretty high on my APFT (I'm not telling you the number), and I still have to train my butt off to do a ruck march of any substantial distance.

I'm not saying that it's okay in my book to walk around with a dozen burritos worth of gut hanging over your belt. It's not! But, you must be in some semblance of physical shape above the bare minimum.

On a lighter note, some time back I saw a picture of a rag-tag group of grunt Soldiers. They looked horrible, but you could tell that they were deadly and effective. The caption to the picture read in essence, "No combat ready unit ever passed inspection." Laughed my arse off on that one!!!!! Ain't it the truth though.....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 1:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:48:58 -0400

Getting a 300 on an APFT do not make a soldier a tactical genius. It takes soldiers with different strengths and weaknesses to make up a unit. Plus I have seen bad push-ups, sit-ups that got undeserved 300 on APFT. The buddy, friend, cheesing, and rank.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 7:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 07:34:19 -0400

No, physical fitness has nothing to say about your skills as a soldier or your leadership ability! Just because one can ace the PT test, does not make him or her a better soldier than one that does not get a perfect score. I have seen plenty of people that were far better soldiers than those that were merely "PT studs".

And your physical fitness has nothing to do with your ability to lead. You can be the most fit person in the Army and have absolutely no idea how to be a leader.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:31 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:31:57 -0400

To me 1SG it shows your athleticismbut what I believe defines a soldier is not but how high their score is, but by the character they show away from PT and how they react to situations or respond to orders given to them, being a good soldier prepares you to be a good leader, can pt help? Yes. But it's how you show yourself and what your capable of that makes you the leader your aiming to be.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:53 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:53:06 -0400

Definitely a good indicator at lower levels (E5 and Below and CPT and Below). Fitness is a key attribute for Warriors to have. In the Field Grade and Senior NCO ranks maintaining a military appearance, critical thinking, problem solving, consistency, ethical behavior, and leading by example are much more important.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:56:17 -0400

I love this question. Absolutely yes scoring a 300 makes you a better Soldier and leader, without a doubt. Is that the only thing that makes a good Soldier and leader? No. Physical fitness is the foundation for everything in the Army and excelling at it is a must for any leader, period. If you cannot lead from the front you probably shouldn't be leading anyone. Being physically fit and striving for excellence is one of the cornerstones of being an NCO, which is why it is a block on the NCOER. Also, as a leader, when I see one of my peers with less than a 270 APFT that immediately tells me that they are lazy and undisciplined (some exceptions apply i.e. wounded warriors). The question was "does a 300 APFT make you a BETTER Soldier or leader?" not "does it automatically make you the BEST Soldier or leader?" In closing: mediocrity is a disease, and excellence is the cure.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 11:25 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:25:26 -0400

No. Absolutely not.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 1:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:12:32 -0400

I know plenty of soldiers who couldn't get close to a 300 that I'd rather go into battle with rather than a pt stud. Its about the character, and there abilities, sure endurance and stamina are good things to have, but I'd rather work with someone who can preform there job well and knows what there doing then someone who don't know anything but has a damn good pt test.

HIGH ANGLE HELL.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 4:35 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 16:35:44 -0400

Is having a good APFT score important for good leader? I say yes, it CAN be. But I would love it if a stellar APFT score seemed to matter less in the quality of a leader. Blowing a physical fitness test out of the water ONLY tells anyone that cares that an individual is in good shape. It says almost nothing about whether a person has the character and integrity required to be a good leader. Some people are more naturally/genetically athletic. Awesome for those that are. But, being able to do 100 push ups a minute or run a 5 minute mile pace to the ends of the Earth is absolutely worthless in determining whether a person will devote the time, effort, and energy needed to do a similarly stellar job of taking care of the troops that they are responsible for.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 9:49 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 21:49:07 -0400

I really dont believe that a 300 makes a better soldier. A good soldier is multifacated. If he or she chooses to go the extra miles and be a PT stud great for them, but dont be berating those who scrape by and are excelent in there tasks. An infantrman or an MP yes high scores, mechinics, clerks, 88M's, give a joe a break. A soldier is just like any one else they each have strong suits. Some are atheletes, some are brainiacs, others fall inbetween have excelent bruit strength but arent gonna go run a marathon. Personally I want my troops balanced. Physically adept and technically profiecent.

Response by CW3 Craig Linghor made Apr 10 at 2015 4:03 AM

CW3 Craig Linghor — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 04:03:35 -0400

if your goal is 180 then yes they are a better soldier and leader.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 7:49 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 07:49:23 -0400

I will put it this way, I would take an expert shooter over a 300 any day.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 3:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:03:38 -0400

I feel that we as NCOs should be able to lead from the front. Does that mean you need a 300 on the APFT? I don't think so. One thing that I realized during our OEF rotation in the ARV was the guys who had 300 scores on the APFT had trouble carrying loads in extreme heat and in the terrain we were in. I feel it is commendable that someone can score a 300 but I don't feel it makes our breaks you as a leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 3:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:22:52 -0400

I think physical fitness is important, but the APFT is a poor measure of that. For example I can't run an 11 minute two mile, nor will I ever have to in combat, but I can lift a lot more weight than most other Soldiers who can run much faster. I am also a huge guy, the Army for some reason thinks all Soldiers should be 5'7" and weigh 150 pounds. I am 6'4 and I weight 255 pounds. Body types make a huge difference, genetics, all of it. Back to the point, I think a guy who gives 110% of himself at all times, even though he may only score a 200 on the PT test, is much more valuable than a guy who scores 300 and doesn't care. Some people can just run.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Apr 10 at 2015 5:07 PM

SFC Stephen King — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:07:35 -0400

I believe physical training is but a part of a Soldier. I ask if you are in a firefight and your 300 Soldier is in the fetal position on the floor they will do me no good if they can't return fire. I no longer care what the individual scored on their APFT.

Response by PO2 Brad Colonna made Apr 10 at 2015 5:10 PM

PO2 Brad Colonna — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:10:20 -0400

I was in the Navy but consistently outperformed most people attached to my ship whenever we had to take the PRT. I, however, was one of the ship's two Search and Rescue swimmers and PT is taken seriously in the SAR community. Also, our division's Chief was a Navy Diver who was also an Ironman alumni. So there was no shortage of PT motivation in our division.

I believe scoring high on the PFT would make one a better soldier. However, if the soldier is a gifted athlete who can take a group of soldiers and collectively raise their PFT scores through leading PT programs then I believe that is leadership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 5:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:11:11 -0400

Negative.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 8:26 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:26:17 -0400

How you score on an APFT is a reflection of how you are as a leader. Of course it isn't all telling but it gives insight. As a leader you should always strive to be better than your soldiers at everything. If you only chose to excel in the areas you are good at or enjoy doing then you clearly don't get it. If course you can't be faster or stronger than everyone under your charge but you should strive to be. Lead by example.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 9:28 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 09:28:27 -0400

A 300 may be indicative of a physically fit solider, but in no way does that score ensure quality leadership. Physical fitness is just a small measure of a complete solider, as such, it is vital tool or building block of a leader but not a singular indicator of leader competency. With that being said, I don’t necessarily think the actual score really matters unless it is on the bottom end of the spectrum. A leader who struggles to pass an APFT is not setting an example for their soldiers to follow.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 9:48 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 09:48:28 -0400

If a PT stud can correlate that to his peers and team, then yes. It is an individual event, but what you make of it is up to you. One has to translate that to sharpening their tactical and technical expertise as well as their leadership qualities. If they can accomplish that, maintain a positive team player attitude, then they have my vote.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 10:42 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:42:55 -0400

It definitely helps to make you a better one, if your Soldiers are seeing you do it then most times they want to do it or strive to do it. All Soldiers and leaders should be striving for that 300 and maxing whatever it is weapons too. It all shows that you lead from the front, how can I tell me Soldiers to do things If I am not doing them?

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 6:51 PM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:51:12 -0400

This is a tough question. I think it depends. We should all aspire to a high level of physical fitness and I normally score in the 295-300 range (depends on if I am nursing an injury or not). As soldiers, this is part of our job regardless of the MOS, and those who consistently maintain a high level of physical fitness show that they have discipline and motivation. I took PT very seriously both as an enlisted grunt and as an officer.

However, this is only ONE aspect of being a good leader (or just being a good soldier, for that matter). There are many things that go into making someone a good leader. I could give plenty of examples of physically fit officers and NCO's who absolutely suck at their jobs. So it is no guarantee. However, I don't know of too many people I knew as great leaders who were not physically fit. Maybe not maxing the PT test but at least they worked really hard at it. From a military perspective I'd say physical fitness is a necessary component but not, in and of itself, any guarantee.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 8:38 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 20:38:29 -0400

That's a negative, 1SG. Some of the best Leaders I've had the pleasure to serve under couldn't get past a 260, and the inverse is true of the "pt studs;" half of them think that pt is more important than technical qualifications, and the other half mistakenly think that they're qualified to teach the MFT course because they're "beasts" at pt.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 10:50 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:50:33 -0400

I have the highest respect for those that put forth the effort to excel...on the APFT, on the rifle range, learning doctrine and staying current with it, taking the time to mentor others, etc. I am disappointed in fellow leaders when they do the minimum on an APFT event and jump up. I am surprised that many leaders do not know what an "ADRP" is or have little familiarity with ATN, etc. Does that say that a leader who does the APFT minimum is a bad leader? No, but to me it says they are lazy. I for one am not going to criticize someone who makes a 300,(or shoots expert, etc) That motivates me to excel. I need improvement in many areas. Strive to excel in as many areas as possible. How does mediocrity or less than mediocrity make a better Soldier, or Army?! Mediocrity will be crushed by the enemy.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:48:06 -0400

I would say it certainly does not make you a better leader. Your individual physical fitness has little to nothing to do with your leadership ability. Leadership is a conglomeration of many individual traits. No single one of those traits can accurately measure your leadership ability. Units, leaders, and promotion boards need to look at the whole soldier concept and not just say "well his uniform looks good and he can really PT, so let's give him stripes".

I'm not even certain that it makes you a better soldier. Granted, physical fitness is part of being a soldier and the 300 soldier is probably in much better shape than a fat 300 lbs soldier. But how well does the APFT really correlate to what you must do in combat? Does the ability to do pushups mean that you can do a buddy carry? Does the ability to run 2 miles mean that you can ruck for miles through the mountains with all of your gear, then climb over walls and other barriers in villages to avoid IEDs? I've seen soldiers that weren't very muscular but could run really fast, guys that couldn't run to save their lives but looked like bodybuilders, and guys that didn't really look in shape at all, but put body armor and a ruck on them and they will just keep going forever because they don't have an "off switch". Although I guess the merits of the APFT should really be an entirely separate discussion.

Now of course this all comes with a caveat. While I don't consider physical fitness alone to be the mark of a good soldier or a good leader, poor physical fitness will reflect poorly on that individual. It projects a poor military image and may indicate a lack of personal discipline, which is important for soldiers and leaders alike.

Response by PO1 Cleve Ikaika Waiwaiole made Apr 14 at 2015 6:52 PM

PO1 Cleve Ikaika Waiwaiole — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:52:21 -0400

Maybe if there was some kind of leadership course integrated into it, it would be great.. But it seems like an individual achievement, something that somewhat contributes to the team if your a motivator or apply it tactics. I'd rather have accomplishments that display leadership and responsibility / accountability.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 14 at 2015 6:54 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:54:25 -0400

The APFT isn't the end all and be all of good Soldiering, but it's an excellent indicator. If you get a 300, then it means you care about at least one aspect of Soldiering. A more important indicator is those who perform poorly on the APFT. While you may do a good job elsewhere and be a good employee, failure at PT tells me that being a Soldier isn't in your heart. This isn't a profession for you, or you require motivation. I never required motivation. I have done well because I have a drive to succeed. If you are a meat head that isn't good for anything else, it will show. I find that a tired argument. If you suck at PT and require an excuse for your lack of desire to go outside and run or do pushups, too damn bad.

Mission first, and if you haven't yet been informed, PT is part of that mission.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 1:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 13:46:37 -0400

No. It's just as you exceeding the standard. But then again, 181 is exceeding the standard. Does it make a Soldier that bad if they meet the standards for physical fitness? Are they competent in their position? Can they lead? SHOULD they lead others? Just because you're a PT Stud does not make you infallible. Nor does NOT being a PT Stud make you a ......bag. Unfortunately, senior leadership is more worried about Green, Yelllow, and Red blocks on the slides; rather than on the important things - training and leading Soldiers to do their jobs. Yes, some jobs are more physically demanding than others. Dismounted Infantry will always have to ruck miles with pounds of equipment. UAS will have to sit in a dark room for hours drinking Monster and squinting at a monitor. Is it fair to hold the UAS operator to the same standard as the infantry? Or vice versa?

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 3:59 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:59:00 -0400

Just scoring a 300 or higher on a APFT does not show if your a leader or not it just proves your an athlete but on the other hand like other comments have stated when your company, platoon and such score fairly close to a 300 or hit that score as a whole shows not just a huge accomplishment but shows motivation and leadership within that platoon and or company. As an individual scoring that your leadership skills trully show when after completing you go back help push the soldiers who are struggling through the simple things going out of your way on free time hitting the gym improving there weakpoints, and giving them positive criticism and pointers.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 12:03 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 00:03:49 -0400

Yes and No. As a Soldier and Leader, Physical Fitness is paramount. But, there are two things to that.
First - While it is the only yard stick we have to measure fitness, I think it is not a very accurate one. I have seen folks that can max push-ups but not manage their entire body weight or perform in Kit. I have a few guys that can max their run but not sustain that pace to complete three miles.
Second- The Army is triathlon+ or pantheon organization. And we all know it as Shoot, Move, Communicate + know your job. If all you can do is move (physical fitness wise) and shoot, well then you are only a 50% Soldier. I would rather have a guy in my formation that scores 270, shoots sharpshooter, knows his AWT, and is fairly proficient at his MOS than a guy that only excels at one or two things and is marginal at the others

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 11:21 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 23:21:46 -0400

Plain and simple, no. If you can score a 300 but the rest of your team/squad/platoon has a APFT average of 180-220 than maybe use some of that energy to motivate them to try harder. Just because you are in better shape doesn't mean you can lead.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 9:11 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 21:11:19 -0400

300 on PT, Expert on Marksmanship by themselves would not make the difference of whether or not your are a top soldier. By themselves they move you up a little notch. The components I see of being a great soldier in rough order of importance are core values, people skills, motivation, common task skills and job knowledge skills. I consider the first three more important because if you have the first three you will likely do well on the latter two. (I include fitness in with common task skills)

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 5 at 2015 9:15 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 05 May 2015 21:15:57 -0400

Scoring an excellent PT score on the AFPT will be great only when it is encompassed with other great accomplishments.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 12:55 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 May 2015 12:55:01 -0400

No, it makes you a physical specimen, but it doesn't equate to being a better leader. You can be a 5 star douche bag and get a 300+ on your PT Test. It's nice when you have a PT stud who is a good leader, because those kinds of leaders can inspire their entire unit to improve everyday and perform above what they may have originally thought. Real leaders inspire you to push past your limits and give a little extra everyday!

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made May 7 at 2015 2:49 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Thu, 07 May 2015 14:49:07 -0400

In a way I believe it SHOULD. The pride I took in keeping my body fit and maxing the test was a personal High for me as I loved the rush pushing my body gave me. This in turn allowed me to show my soldiers I was one of them and not just all mouth as many NCO's were back in the day and I used this fitness to be knee deep in the thick of it with my soldiers. I had a few privates who had just got to our unit who didnt know how to read a compass, so I took them out on a crash land nav course/compass reading course. By the end of the day we had covered many miles and they were now proficient with both land nav and reading a compass/map. I also found it cool every time I was awarded a Presidential fitness award. So yes I believe it SHOULD. Be all you can be!!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 9:08 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 21:08:04 -0400

A 300+ score should be a goal. Not a requirement. It doesn't necessarily make you a better soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 8:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 May 2015 08:47:05 -0400

I don't think it does now.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 1:03 PM

HN Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 May 2015 13:03:02 -0400

In my opinion of Marines when they score 300s it means you are fit and in the condition you should be in. Does this mean other Marines are less effective, no. Still, just because you scored 300 doesn't make you amazing or special in any way. It just says, "I'm where I should be."

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 27 at 2015 6:15 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Wed, 27 May 2015 18:15:34 -0400

I'll say a better soldier with that score. Being a top apft doesn't make a better leader. (that my opinion).

Response by BG David Fleming III made May 27 at 2015 9:19 PM

BG David Fleming III — Wed, 27 May 2015 21:19:24 -0400

It shows great discipline. A quality every good leader needs to be successful!!!

Response by SFC Jason Porter made May 28 at 2015 1:26 PM

SFC Jason Porter — Thu, 28 May 2015 13:26:48 -0400

Nope! We chaptered out a few 300 plus over my 20 plus yr career. Physical fitness is just a small part of Soldiering!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 8:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 20:34:14 -0400

I read this blog and it makes me very sad how many people not only do not believe that being willing to put in the extra effort to score a 300 on the PT test does not make you a better leader, but it makes you the perfect target for mockery. I admit that it is not the only measuring stick, but from a lot of the responses to this post, not only does having the intestinal fortitude, will, and determination to push yourself to score a 300 NOT make you a better leader, but it makes you self absorbed and otherwise useless. I used to score 300s on my PT test and I was proud to be able to wear the patch, but whenever I did I got mocked by all of my peers and leaders. So I stopped wearing it. For a long time I still pushed to qualify, but as the Army began to change, having a 300 PT score was not important to anyone any more. A lot of higher level leaders on here mocking those that score 300s on PT tests and it is extremely demotivating. What is the Army definition of leader again? Guiding others to accomplish a task by providing direction, purpose, and motivation. According to a lot of these posts, as long as you can provide direction, you no longer need to provide purpose and motivation to be a leader. Sigh......it is so time for me to retire. Army just isn't what it used to be.

Response by SPC Derrick Backstrom made Jun 12 at 2015 6:37 AM

SPC Derrick Backstrom — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 06:37:42 -0400

No. You also need to look at the quality of soldiering. It's great don't get me wrong, but there are many who cannot soldier.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 10:30 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:30:14 -0400

I think that it shows your Soldiers that you push yourself and ask the same in return from them. I would not a higher APFT score makes a person a "better leader." I've seen PT studs that couldn't lead a squad out of a wet paper bag because they had no leadership attributes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 3:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:27:30 -0400

1SG,
It helps you complete the "Whole Soldier Concept" but that is about it. Some great Leaders are on profile. You can still help your Soldiers score high on a PT Test. There are also those that get 300 and are horrible leaders.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Jun 2015 21:59:36 -0400

The APFT is a great place to set oneself apart and score the needed points in a competitive MOS. It's relationship to actual leadership, however, is nonexistent. The same guy spending hours to improve his PT could also use that time to take some college classes, which can have a direct impact on leadership abilities.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2015 4:11 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:11:25 -0400

I'd say yes and no. Being good on paper makes a good place for your juniors to shoot for. (Why should I shoot for a 300 if my leaders only get 250's) but that is only one facet of what you are as a leader. the big things are going to be how you treat your juniors, how much they respect and trust you, how good you are at your job and how well you can teach them to be as good you are.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2015 10:35 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Jun 2015 22:35:19 -0400

I must say your actions do make you a better leader. But as I thought there would be a lot of haters on here about this issue. Getting a 300 is good and bad. Good in a way that you won't get kicked out for it. If you are in shape you won't be looked at as a pos. And it will give you favor over others for schools, events, and excellent blocks. The bad side is it makes you a target. Some people will grade you harder because you have it, because they resent you for having it. I've personally had that happen to me. At times people will look at other things that you are weak in to make themselves feel better. Every soldier cannot be the complete package that's why they call the Army a team. Some are weak in things and some are strong in things. This is funny though. Because when a soldier is on the Fat boy program he's a pos. So you can't win . Females have it easier so those standards are lowered for them and they get better options for schools etc for doing less work. It kills me because they tried that recently for Ranger schools right? And all the females failed. Yet the standards should be lowered for them to make it "fair"? This weakens the Army I believe. And like I heard before in one of these comments about not being able to gps his own a-hole, if you are not in your best condition physically you're sol. You weaken your team,yourself, and your family.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 12:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:56:44 -0400

Does scoring a 300 make you a better Soldier? Yes, in so far as being physically prepared to perform the duties of the MOS you hold. It shows that you are physically ready for just about anything that comes your way.

Does scoring a 300 make you a better Leader? No. Leadership is not a physical endeavor. Whether or not my leader can score 300 is not going to have any impact on my willingness to follow him/her into danger, or thier ablility to competently lead me there.

In fact using the presence of an APFT patch as a item of interest on a promotion board does a disservice to the NCO corp. Obtaining an APFT patch is an individual achievement that has no bearing on yoru ablility to lead or be part of a team. As I'm writing this I'm recalling Robert DeNiro in Untouchables. There are plenty of soldiers that are highly qualified that, for one reason or another, cannot take the three event APFT, and are thus prevented from getting a patch or scoring a 300.

Response by CW3 Stephen Bacon made Jul 30 at 2015 12:47 PM

CW3 Stephen Bacon — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:47:25 -0400

NO! ! ! ! !

Response by SSG Marco Mancilla made Jul 30 at 2015 12:57 PM

SSG Marco Mancilla — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:57:05 -0400

unfortunally in the Army what we percieve is what it counts regardless of other more important factors. unlisted go at eachother like visious animals, while officers help eachother. ( it is a sad true that one of my 1SG pointed out once.) As far as the PT , apperanced do matter so we shall strive to look and be fit) Before deployments we used to run an average of 20 miles a week., after deployment 5 miles was a good week. All the running does not help keep that belly down , there must be a better fitness program.( I know it is call doing your own PT) . Easy to say than getting it done.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 6:52 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:52:14 -0400

No it doesn’t; it does show however, that you have worked hard and were responsible enough to attain a certain level of Physical Fitness and shows commitment, personal goal setting, achievement and pride, and if you are a leader, it shows an unequivocal example for others to follow, and that has more value and it’s more effective than any counseling or orders that any one leader can give or impose.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 8:22 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 20:22:44 -0400

BLUF: No 300 PT score are not better Soldier
No it doesn't but if you care about exceeding the PT standard it tends to carry over in other areas of a Soldier character. Most Soldiers that score a 300 on the APFT tend to be better Soldiers.

Response by MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 5:19 AM

MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 05:19:50 -0400

Over the years I've noticed two distinct groups that made up the few 300 PFTers I've known. The first group were mostly first termers. They weren't dedicated PT studs and their physical fitness was a carryover from high school sports. Around years 2 or 3 their scores began to drop. The second group were individuals who had the cushy office billets that afforded them the 2 to 3 hours of PT time a day to maintain themselves.

Response by MSG Carlos LeMarie made Feb 27 at 2016 7:23 PM

MSG Carlos LeMarie — Sat, 27 Feb 2016 19:23:45 -0500

No, but makes you lead by example.

Response by SSG Craig Thompson made Mar 13 at 2016 1:36 PM

SSG Craig Thompson — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 13:36:14 -0400

No it does not, I have known leaders that get a 300 on their pt test and are not good leaders. They are out just for themselves and have thrown their own soldiers under the bus

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2016 2:01 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:01:32 -0400

The reality is having a 300 score on your APFT only means you are good at taking a PT test. The APFT only measures how many push ups and sit ups you can do in 2 minutes, and how fast you run 2 miles. It is not a psych eval or a full physical, in my opinion it is a blunt generalized tool for assessing physical fitness which has limited effect on leadership ability.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 10:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:40:19 -0400

So I have followed this post since it started and see a trend, and while I agree with the majority that it is not the only thing that makes you a good leader, it still does not deserve the negative stigma that has been attached to it. Most of the people posting vehemently that it is not a sign of a good leader or arguing that some people simply have a natural ability to score 300s are more often than not, in my experience, too lazy to try. Unfortunately, folks, on the last AAR for the E7 board for 94 series, they reported that PT scores were one of the things they looked at. Get on RP and cry about how PT means nothing all you want, if you want to get promoted and stay in, might want to put in that extra effort. Or don't, makes no difference to me. Just know the physical condition of our Army gets worse by each generation. What type of example will the current leaders set for the future of the Army? Hopefully the trend changes or the outlook is dismal.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2016 4:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 04:59:45 -0400

NO. it simply means you are young, in good shape... or both

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2016 4:18 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:18:10 -0400

soldier yes leader no

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Apr 22 at 2016 4:30 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 16:30:21 -0400

No.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made Apr 23 at 2016 1:33 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 01:33:07 -0400

Nope. Just means your good @ push ups/sit ups, & can run fast in sneakers.

The real test is on the battle fields.

As another put it, seen 300 Pt'ers who couldn't fight their way out of a paperbag/find their ass if it was in front of them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 4:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:46:52 -0400

Definitely not. Some of my worst Soldiers had 300+ PT scores. Its a great goal for Soldiers to strive for, but should never be the focus. There are far more important things in this world than a PT test. As far as leadership, a 300 isn't important but striving to be far above average is important. You can't rightfully tell a Soldier that they need to improve when you're only busting out a 220 (with no medical limitation). Honestly I'm not a fan of the current PT test but it is a standard and its important that NCO's uphold it until something else comes along. I wish the Army would put more focus on rucking and sprinting. Those are functions performed in combat. The PT test can be trained for and still have terrible results in combat conditions.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Apr 28 at 2016 5:01 PM

SFC J Fullerton — Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:01:54 -0400

No, it just means you are physically fit. While that is important, there are many other important traits that define your ability to Soldier or lead Soldiers.
Btw- Just a comment about this picture. An NCO grading push-ups sitting on a stool? That was frowned upon "back in the day". The kind of thing old and crusty CSM's go ape shit over.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2016 10:28 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:28:50 -0400

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made Oct 4 at 2016 4:02 PM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Tue, 04 Oct 2016 16:02:07 -0400

I've seen people who were "board material" blow 300s on their pt test like it was an evening stroll in the park. They could also drill their own 2 legs off and could regurgitate all kinds of useless and menial nonsense from any manual, pamphlet, regulation, order, and directive they had ever read. More common than not though, they were the same worthless tards that became paperweights in the combat zone. They cried for mommy and daddy and were the first ones in line for the iridium phone. They wallowed in general self pity while on deployment and became the biggest turds in the company. They may be good on a petty, little a 2 week field op, but put their pansy-asses on a deployment, and they fall apart as soon as the wheels leave the ground from their home station.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Oct 6 at 2016 3:29 PM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 15:29:31 -0400

If I was looking at two different NCOs and one had 300 while the other had a significant lower one. I would definitely go with the 300. At 40 years old I can still get 300s. This however, takes a lot of self discipline. Same goes for being overweight. I would rather have a NCO who is lean than a fat one. Regardless of how good he is. If he's fat, he lacks in self discipline, self motivation.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2016 1:39 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 13:39:29 -0400

No. I have seen many of our wounded warriors who at one time were scoring close to 300. But I longer had that ability. You know what didn't change? Their ability to lead and motivate Soldiers!!! Too much weight is placed on the magical 300!! But it doesn't make you a better leader in my eyes.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Oct 22 at 2016 1:04 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:04:51 -0400

My opinion has still not changed, again......NO.

Response by SFC James High made Oct 27 at 2016 1:15 PM

SFC James High — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 13:15:46 -0400

I wish the Army would not put so much emphasis on the PT Test. I prefer brains over brawn anyway. Passing the physical fitness test should be enough, if a Soldier wants to strive for more, good for them, but it DOES NOT mean they are a better Soldier than anyone else. Many years ago when I attended PLDC the Honor Graduate from my class had a lower academic average than I did, but because he scored a 290 on the PT Test he was it. I don't recall a block on the NCOER that is called Physical Fitness, it is actually called Physical Fitness & Military Bearing. All the emphasis is on the physical part. Rally Point needs to closeout the discussion on this subject already. I believe it has been whipped enough.

Response by CH (CPT)(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2017 12:29 PM

CH (CPT)(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Apr 2017 12:29:37 -0400

It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't exactly help. You can't be a leader without being able to pass pt, but give me a leader who knows his soldiers, cares about them and their families, is technically and tactically proficient, has humility but confidence, and a 220 APFT and day over someone with a 300 but lacking in those other areas.

Response by SPC Denton McLaughlim made Apr 8 at 2017 2:14 PM

SPC Denton McLaughlim — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 14:14:32 -0400

No, it proves you can get an 300+ on your APFT. Nothing more.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 8:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:59:27 -0500

No, it just means that you exceed the standard on PT Tests

Response by SFC Donald Souza made Mar 19 at 2018 7:48 PM

SFC Donald Souza — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:25 -0400

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2018 8:59 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 13 Oct 2018 20:59:31 -0400

No it doesn't, and here is my logic on the situation. Not everyone can get a 300, thats just how it is. People have different physical abilities when it comes to physical fitness. A good leader doesn't have to be the most physically fit, as long as they know their job, take care of their Soldiers, train them appropriately and push them to their limits is whats going to make someone a good leader.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Oct 13 at 2018 9:48 PM

PFC Elijah Rose — Sat, 13 Oct 2018 21:48:29 -0400

Fitness will increase a soldier's performance but there are many more important things. Speaking as a history major a professional soldier who is primarily concerned with loot is nearly useless but an amateur soldier doesn't want anything but to ensure war doesn't come to his town is useful.
In this case would you rather an egomaniac that excells or a team player who just passes?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2018 5:01 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Oct 2018 05:01:35 -0400

No, but it will get you promoted.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 25 at 2020 10:05 AM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:05:32 -0400

Better Soldier? Maybe, better Leader no. Over my career in Ordnance I worked with guys who were the typical big burly wrench turners, they could find and fix problems with out issue. Run 2 miles? Forget it, but they had the respect of other soldiers & seniors because they could get things done. I will take that kind of soldier over a pretty boy starched and pressed know nothing any day.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 25 at 2020 6:05 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 18:05:03 -0400

The fitness test can indicate a more well rounded leader. Every aspect of military service is an indicator. The best leaders work to improve in all areas. The bottom line is that as a stand-alone, no one indicator makes you a better leader. A well rounded leader who works to improve all are the best.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Sep 25 at 2020 8:04 PM

SFC Christopher Perry — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 20:04:41 -0400

Negative.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2020 11:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 23:43:43 -0400

In and of itself, your APFT score speaks only to your personal degree of physical fitness. If the ONLY thing that your job entails is passing physical fitness tests, then it might be argued that a given score might make you a better soldier. But we all know that this scenario is not true. What makes anyone "a better soldier" is a mix of qualities which I won't get into in this response. And different jobs define "better soldier" in different ways. The Army provides standards and minimum scores for the APFT. In other words, it determines the requirements. And it is every soldier's job - at the personal level - to meet those requirements. If they exceed them, more power to them. That might speak to their discipline, motivation, etc. in that particular area of endeavor. That discipline, motivation and etc. **might** spill over to other areas of the soldier's responsibilities, but that is not necessarily guaranteed. It's not a given.
As far as leadership goes, CSM Brock stated it clearly and well. "The APFT is an individual accomplishment." Leadership requires involvement with others - from setting the example to motivating, teaching, directing, etc. Some of the leadership tasks **might** be aided by excellent physical condition, but then again others might not. So this also becomes dependent on the circumstances of the case.
To answer the question then, I don't think we can make a "blanket" or unqualified statement that a 300 on an APFT makes anyone a better soldier or leader.