Do you understand why mixing religion and politics may be the only thing that can save our country?

CW4 Juan Morales I never said anyone had a right to "lord their religion" over you. I am simply postulating that our leadership has no moral compass or integrity and that people with "genuine" Christian roots may be a logical and refreshing.

PO1 Steven Kuhn, I'll point out that the vast majority of American politicians claim to be Christians. Including all 44 presidents thus far. To claim we need more Christianity to right the country's moral compass seems to me like ignoring the impact it has had so far. Also, as a technicality, if you put something in quotes, you imply someone said it. I never said anyone was "lording their Religion". I simply state that legislating religious morality puts us on the wrong direction.

My supposition was not an attack directed at you or those who do not believe in God's Word. My premise was that our Founding Fathers had faith in God, and developed our Constitution based on that faith. I have not attacked your right to not believe, or attacked your morals or integrity. I just believe that directly or indirectly the source and Standard come from God. I have in no way, directly or indirectly, attacked you. I have treated you and everyone else with respect. If you think about it, you voted me down because of my faith as compared to your lack of faith. Notice I do not respond to you in the same manner. I stated an opinion, and backed it up with bibliography info of our Founding Fathers that you can verify.

MAJ Carl Ballinger -

So under that pretense, Muslims don't have morals, Hindus don't have morals... The other two most prominent religions in the worlds are without morals. They're killing one another in their chaotic streets, murdering, raping, pillaging, doing all manners of evils. Sounds very similar to the Catholic Church in their day of power, which apparently gets their morals from your same Abrahamic God. So, I guess the morals you speak of are veiled as evil?

The bible is the most anyone needs to leave the Christian Religion. The failings of the bible are to be filled with "faith" in broken precepts, logical fallacies and things that even a child could induce to be incorrect... I supposed I should sell my wife into slavery, the bible authorizes me such. It also authorizes me to command her to do things she may not approve of, or may be sinful in nature. Because the woman is the lesser to God. God is a sexist, misogynistic, tantrum enraged, backwards thinking fool, at least your God is. You Christians never address those comments, because you can't - you have no power to. It's pathetic!

Reality is this: You acknowledge what you BELIEVE to be sin. There are no sins. The moment I finally accepted the fact that God was not real, the relief of burdens that I psychologically inflicted on myself dissipated. I immediately felt better. Oh, let me say - when I converted, I felt a similar effect of what I thought at the time was Jesus "lifting my sins from me", but after I left, I felt that feeling 50 fold. To be free of constant judgement, intolerance, etc - THAT is freedom from fear and control, which are the primary tenants that your God(really your pastors and church leaders) use to keep you paying your tithes and inflicting guilt to you further to make you believe you NEED them...

Also, your God says he is unchanging throughout all the ages... Why did he change from this horrendous murdering prick to a merciful, loving, accepting God? I thought every word, every word should come to pass. I guess he passed over that scripture and decided he can change if he wants to... But my words won't have any effect on your "faith".

SGT Michaël-Joseph Forand

I love how Christians believe they have the authority to speak for their supposed "omnipotent" God. Moreover, that any Omnipotent God would NEED frail mortals (humans) to spread his discourse. Apparently Omnipotence is not all it is chalked up to be.

SGT Michaël-Joseph Forand: The short answer appears to be "Yes, it is."

Thank y'all for that. I have been getting voted down when all I asked people to do was research whether we were founded on Christian values and whether our founding fathers were Christian. What I have been receiving is akin to hate mail when I simply posted a question out of love for my country and respect for my fellow servicemen and women......

PO1 Steven Kuhn, I think there are more people who support you than those who don't.

I just wished the people who attacked me would take the time to research the materials that I mentioned and see if I am spouting fact or lies. I could see the reason for their attacks if they were certain that what I said was un-American or unpatriotic, but President George Washington stated in his farewell address that the man who tried to take religion and morality out of the public office (politics) would be a liar to call himself a patriot!

I SAY TO THE SIR TO LOOK ME IN THE EYES AND TO TELL ME WHAT I DID OR DID NOT DO TO UPSET HIM AND TELL ME HOW IT MADE HIM FEEL AND TO SUGGEST WHAT I MIGHT DO OR NOT DO TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN AND I NEED TO SAY THAT I GOT HURT TO MANY TIMES DURING ACTIVE DUTY

So, a majority of the world is immoral? What a depressing thought.

I'm not sure I want politicians who believe that the morality laid out in the bible is the one true answer...otherwise we'll have to start killing children who are disobedient. The Old Testament has some truly barbaric laws dictated by God, and Jesus said (paraphrasing): I'm not removing one word, not one pen-stroke, from the old laws".

There is no way for you to know he is any more real than the Easter Bunny. You have no proof. I respect your beliefs, but thoroughly disagree with them. These threads always end up the same. Heads bashing together for no good reason. Arguing about religion is just as bad as arguing about which political party is right. So back to the point of the OP. No, it's a terrible idea to mix religion with politics. There is enough gridlock as it is and adding religion will only make it worse not better.

Sgt Israel Zinns what is your standard of morality? Where did it come from? I am not saying there are not some good people who do not have faith, or some bad people who do have faith. I am stating that our founding fathers had faith and used it to base our original government on. I have been (with courtesy and respect) listening to all of the discourse going on about people being offended because I believe that they have no morals. I never said anything like that. I said (from a bunch of facts that can be researched in our history) that America was founded on Christian values. Were there mistakes? Is our record spotless? Yes there were mistakes, and no one is perfect except Jesus. You would not be in this nation if Puritans had not fled England for religious freedom. Point of fact. You would not live in a free society if our forefathers had not had the foresight to use Biblical principles as the foundation for our Constitution and the other freedoms we enjoy. True freedom from sin is what we get from Jesus, yet even as we follow Him we make mistakes. I brought this entire point up because Capitol Hill should be renamed "Crapitol Hill" as there are few who are setting the example of what a Moral, Ethical Politician and Leader should be. It was not that way in the past. I want America to survive for our children and grandchildren and if we do not do something to bring back a sense of morality, integrity and honor to our government then all is lost. We have all served and given parts of our lives to this great country, and I for one would like to see our flag continue to fly with honor.

I was wondering when that would come up. I'm college educated...I know how to read. Yet somehow, whenever I quote a piece of scripture to support my argument, I'm told that I don't understand the context, I have to go back to the original Hebrew, if I don't have a PhD in Ancient Religions I'm not qualified to judge. Often, from the same people who will tell others that everything needed for salvation is in the bible and very easy to understand. It's a very interesting dichotomy.

All I know is that the God referred to in the Old Testament was known for passing out the death penalty for any number of offenses, and he was not a fan of keeping prisoners (many Israelite conquests ended with "Kill all the men, women, and children, burn every building, slaughter every animal"). The bible then also states that God is unchanging, the same today, yesterday, forever...I guess I'm at a loss how you can't draw those conclusions.

SSG Brad Porter He also said "I come to turn brother against brother, daughter against mother. I come not with peace, but with a sword".

Cotton-pickin' row to hoe.lol

As an Alabama atheist, I can relate to a "long row to hoe" in regards to feeling accepted by my neighbors here.

CPO William Hughes...born at Decatur General, myself :) And if you know anything about Lawrence County...you know about uphill battles!

Tell me about it!! I guess it's a good thing that I'm a naturally argumentative person. My belief that logic and reason will ultimately prevail, along with science to guide the way, is the small thread that holds my sanity together!

The integrity and honesty of a person who follow Christianity in truth is what is needed. In 1962-3, the Supreme Court, with no legal precedent, took the Bible and prayer out of schools (which our Founding fathers did not want since Congress authorized printing of the American Bible for use in our schools), and you can check the almost instantaneous increase in drugs, teen pregnancy, divorce and crime from the year of that decision!

From 1962 the teen pregnancy, venereal disease rate, divorce rate, drug abuse rate, and crime rate rose around 400% and in recent years the crime rate actually has decreased but I believe that is more due to a 75% increase in legal gun carriers in the United States. As for your position of a generation of a generation of unwanted children being unborn thanks to Roe vs Wade, I am going to have to firmly disagree with you on that one. Who knows if we lost the next Martin Luther King or John F. Kennedy, or another Einstein? Do you ever notice that everyone that is so "for" abortion has already been born? Put yourself back in the womb and tell me that if you could not beat on your monma's belly in morse code "do not abort me" you would not have. Take the time to tell the truth.....and notice that I am not voting you down even though I strongly disagree with your Roe vs Wade assertion which you can in no way prove.

SPC David W. "given that we, as humans, are religious, are you actually advocating that we ignore half of our personhood when we approach how to lead the species? How does the Army do it: the total soldier, which includes spiritual health? How do we then be total politically minded, while ignoring part of who we are? "

-- A few points for you.

1.) I am not a religious person, and I know a great many people who are not religious. So that statement doesn't make sense to me. YOU might be religious, and that's cool. That's your thing, own it. I have no issues with that and I'll never treat you any differently until you start requiring me to adhere to your religious standards.

2.) The military makes *allowances* for soldiers to practice their religion, on their own time. It does not mandate religious observance, it does not encourage religious observance, and it does not factor religion when considering a soldier's "total soldier" package. Neither I nor any other leader I know of has ever said "Let's promote Specialist Yada-yada because they max their PT test, they qualify expert, they have a few SoM/SoQ boards, they're a section leader, they have points, they have a Bachelor's degree, they've been to the board, OH AND ALSO they go to Sunday Meetings."

3.) The military is not (officially) a political institution. Therefore comparing the separation of Church and State to the military, which officially incorporates religions courtesy of base chapels and chaplains, doesn't equate.

SGT Luke has it right. Schools should be in the business of education. And back to PO1 Kuhn's snide remark that 100% of those "for" abortion are already born. How profound! 100% of those opposed are also born, or did you forget that? No one is "for" abortion, just the right of the woman to choose what path she follows.

You do realize that white Americans who quoted the words I posted to you felt their worth was worthy of action and they gave their lives to fight for the freedoms of those enslaved. How come all anyone wants to point out is the negative without acknowledging the positive? Both sides have validity, but people who want to believe in the bad will always choose to focus on it without acknowledging the good.

It wasn't quite a "then". Slavery was an essential part of colonial life and economics from the early 1600s.

My ninth great grandfather bequeathed his "neager" in his will back in about 1680. Human domestic appliances (perhaps in a matched pair, if the family had the wealth) were a wedding present to newlywed urban upper middle class couples in New England and points south. Of course, human agricultural equipment was the major stock in trade for the slavery industry up until the mid 19th Century in North America. It persisted elsewhere in this hemisphere for quite a bit longer.

We have a much more workable model than chattel slavery nowadays. Back then, the cost of a farm implement at the slave market was a steep capital investment, and you had to clothe, house, feed and keep your investment healthy for its expected lifetime.

Now, the worker is required to provide his own food, shelter, clothing and medical care, purchased out of his meager wages. Much more efficient system as far as the consumers of labor are concerned.

As I stated previously, it is my belief that when our forefathers put down the statement that all men were created equal it was with the hopes that from their Christian point of view that was a place America could grow to. None of my family owned any slaves, even though my dad was prejudiced and I got punished for not adhering to his outlook on my fellow human beings. Again, from a perspective point of view this is probably one of the many things we may not agree upon with regards to intent, but if I understand you correctly you appear to agree with me that slavery has no place in America, right?

r/

Steve

PO1 Steven Kuhn: I agree: chattel slavery has no place in America today, even though almost the entire colonial economic system ultimately relied on it, especially when one considers things like the sugar cane industry.

My point, to the extent that I had one, is that there are more efficient ways of enslaving people here now than owning them outright. Starting with migrant agricultural workers and moving up the scale, it is easy to posit that certain slaves in certain conditions were much better off physically than our present low-wage workers in many areas.

I don't think this is what America truly is supposed to stand for, but others have disagreed strongly with this view.

Capt Torphy Sir, I shall pick an choose from the bible, and I shall interpret it as rings true to me. I'm certainly going to try not to pick up too many life lessons from the Song of Solomon. And both books by Jeramiah are pretty depressing. In my humble opinion, much of the bible has been distorted, largely due to the emperor Constantine using it as a politic weapon to unify the Pagans and Christians. Things were lost, and I suspect things were gained, changed etc. One need only turn to the Dead Sea scrolls to see the magnitude of the depth of theological writings for consideration. Much of the Apocrypha serves as very interesting reading too.

That is an interesting perspective MSgt. I agree that everyone I've ever met who claims to be an out and out Atheist, entirely convinced that there is no God seems to have a MAJOR chip on their shoulder and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. But then again in the same vein, Those religious individuals who are so convinced that they have found the absolute truth, to the point of putting others down for believing something different have just as big of a chip on their shoulder. THAT kind of bigotry is not what we need from our leadership.

Saw this and it highlighted my thoughts in this conversation perfectly

Msgt; I did not leave a comment because there was no place to leave one. This app only allows for a direct response, not one that comes after someone else has posted to your comment. I am offended that you label all atheists as "dishonest". There is no requirement for me to "empirically" state that there is no god. All that an atheist has to do is to individually believe there is no god. I live this life trying to be the best human being I am capable of, and this includes being as honest, moral and ethical as I am capable of. I do not wait for an invisible being to take me to live in an invisible place "only" if I glorify them in this life. If a person chooses to believe in gods and masters, that is their perogative and I have nothing against that. Just don't bring those beliefs and/or actions into the public arena or knock on my door trying to spread the idiotic ideas to me or my family.

There are numerous ethical systems and not all of them use Deontological principles (i.e. God's law) as the basis for determing right from wrong. Does not make one more valid than the other. It just shows that there different ways to skin a cat.

There is only one Way, Truth, and Light.....

PO1 Steven Kuhn, maybe for you and folks who believe as you do....but the beauty of the 1st Amendment is that you are totally within your rights to believe that (and I'm not making a judgement on whether your beliefs are "right" or not). You ARE NOT within your rights to force me or anyone else to believe the same way you do. And that is why I believe religion and politics don't mix. Like I said, it's prefectly fine for a politician to have his ethical core come from God. It is not okay for him to foist his beliefs on others simply because he's in a position to do so.

Well, what Americans want an unethical leader? Very few, I would say!

I am glad that you read what I had to say instead of just using your knee jerk reaction. We have a problem in Washington and in our political system. I would like for us to be able to communicate freely and express differences in opinions while jointly using our minds to address and solve the problems we are facing. I would like to think that people who have served can work together to find a solution to the myriad of problems we are facing as a nation. I would much prefer a discourse of disagreement containing mutual respect for one another's ideas than down votes with no explanation. We have the right to up vote or down vote and an up vote is almost self explanatory. A down vote would provide more edification if an explanation were followed by it. Then, at least, there could be some potential mutual learning in light of our differences. Down voting with no explanation is either lazy or cowardly, or both. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Respectfully,

Steve

I very, very seldom down vote comments unless I feel they are just being hateful or purposely trying to hurt someone. When I do down vote, I make a point of posting why I did so. I can appreciate an honest opinion even if I disagree with it. I don't necessarily disagree with what your looking for, I just don't believe a person's religion is a determining factor alone. There was a time when our forefathers would not tolerate a man of poor moral fiber being in a leadership position. If push came to shove, they would "Throw the rascals out!" by any means necessary. The extreme version involving tar, feathers, and a rail....... Deep inside I fear we are coming to a point where it will become a physical confrontation between those who do nothing but take and those who are being forced to give. In such an atmosphere we face a real danger of being swept into becoming the things we have for so long despised.........