Do you think we should question orders?

SFC Craig Titzkowski — Sun, 22 Aug 2021 21:45:43 -0400

Do you think we should question orders when they are given for political posturing.
1) Wearing N95 or cloth masks in the military.
a. We all know a mask that prevents aerosol spread diseases or chemicals you must use a fitted mask. (N95 and cloth mask don't provide any protection)
2) Freedom of medical choice for the least effected by Corvid-19.
a. Military personnel just happen to be some of the most fit people in our population.
I would just like to know why we are not asking the tough questions and demanding our leadership explain with facts why without using an answer our commander and Chief has ordered it. I always have know at any level you can ask and demand proof of reason behind an order that's why we have the best military we all have each other to answer to and for. Let me know what you think?

Response by SFC Kathy Pepper made Aug 22 at 2021 10:37 PM

SFC Kathy Pepper — Sun, 22 Aug 2021 22:37:30 -0400

I agree that it is important for members of the military to ask questions, particularly the NCO corps. This is how we learn the necessary answers in order to train those in our charge. However, once upon a time (or several times for many of us) we raised our right hands and swore to uphold our constitution and to follow the orders of our Commander-in-Chief (not “commander and Chief”). While I don’t believe in blind loyalty, I do believe in the oath I took on so many different occasions. Following lawful orders from our leaders is not an option.

As far as military personnel being the least affected (not “effected”), many young and very healthy people have died of covid (not “corvid”). The military can order its members to get a flu shot; do you propose that young, healthy people do not contract the flu? I have had to roll up my sleeve, and even “drop trou,” for many shots that I didn’t want to take, but guess what? “Uncle Sam Ain’t Released Me Yet.”

Response by SFC Marc W. made Aug 22 at 2021 10:48 PM

SFC Marc W. — Sun, 22 Aug 2021 22:48:58 -0400

I see where you are coming from with the premise here. I don't necessarily disagree either.
However the guidance from the CDC for years when coughing or suspected flu is to wear a face mask. Having someone wear a mask for a currently spreading respiratory illness is neither illegal nor immoral.
Not a chance in hell that leadership is going to explain itself outside of "it came from higher" or redirect to the CDC.

Response by SMSgt Bob W. made Aug 23 at 2021 1:25 AM

SMSgt Bob W. — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 01:25:13 -0400

Craig, what are you smoking? The military IS "a political". We can start with the Indian Wars of the 1800s--land and mineral grabs; 1950s Korean War--protect Japan from Russia; 1960s Vietnam--stop the spread of Communism, etc. N95 mask DOES PROVIDE some protection from many things--the flu and COVID-19. I believe you are required to follow all lawful orders of Officers and NCOs over you. Suck it up or get out. Simple. If it was up to me, the vaccinations would have been mandatory for all military personnel from the "get-go" like many other vaccinations.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Aug 23 at 2021 8:59 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 08:59:58 -0400

You should question unlawful orders but the onus is on you to prove it's unlawful or illegal. You are moving into a grey area for sure trying to loop masks into being unlawful. As for the vaccine you are preaching to the choir. The COVID vaccine isn't mandatory yet but even if/when it is it wont be the first mandatory vaccine people tried to fight. Small pox, anthrax or even the nasal flu shot. All stuff people fought in the past. I'd be careful treading on it because without solid evidence to back your claim it will just skyline you.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 23 at 2021 11:13 AM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:13:16 -0400

Ok the N-95 is an effective tool for what it is designed for. Cloth masks...I have answered this one a bizzillion times over: Go to google and type in Efficacy of Cloth Masks for COVID-19. You will find numerous medical studies from the British Lancet, JAMA, NLM, and so on. All of these are are peer reviewed studies, and most review 20-50 studies (I think the Lancet reviewed 160 studies) All of them pretty much come to the same conclusion: How the mask is worn, quality and thread count of the material in question were the two basic things that keep coming back. So I hope that help alleviate that concern. Next the vaccine: Pizer is on the verge of FDA Approval, that should put that one to bed soon enough. I suspect that Moderna won't be far behind. Also go back to the Continental Army, George Washington eventually had to order troops to be variolated (noticed I did not say vaccinated as Jenner would not find out that vaccinia would protect people from Small Pox for years to come), meaning they were exposed to the live Small Pox virus. Notice history doesn't show that there was a revolt against Washington.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Aug 23 at 2021 1:42 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 13:42:09 -0400

Here I thought this was a legitimate question - but nope.

Just because you don't agree with an order doesn't make it unlawful. In fact, there are plenty of laws that are considered immoral, unethical or unjust but they're still legal. Until you amend a law, then that thing you disagree with is going to remain legal and a legal order.

1. Face masks, combined with other preventive measures, will help slow the spread of any virus. Not just covid-19.

2. Military personnel are not some of the most fit people in our population. I was in better shape before I joined the Army 17 years ago than I am now. The Army has not only broken me down but due to the antiquated ABCP requirements, pretty sure I have an eating disorder along with many, many other soldiers. So I would definitely not say we have some of the "most fit" in the US population. Also, let's add in that covid has been taking out healthy, young people with no prior health issues, especially with the delta variant. Kids are being hospitalized more than a year ago.

There's plenty of information out there that explains why the choices were made medically. Now that the vaccine is mandatory, it's like every other shot we get. Did you question every other vaccine you've ever gotten? Also with covid it's not JUST about YOU. You might not get sick from it - but people you come in contact can. Or you can transmit it to them and what about if they have high risk dependents? Or they are high risk?

This is the problem in this country. Everyone is just all "me, me, me" and you aren't worried about anyone else.

I can't wait to see the people who try to find an exemption for this who don't have a legitimate reason not to get it.

Response by SPC David Roberts made Aug 23 at 2021 2:01 PM

SPC David Roberts — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 14:01:01 -0400

If the Army wanted you to have freedom of choice, they would have issued you some.

I agree that the effectiveness of cloth masks is questionable, but requiring troops to wear masks doesn't get anywhere near unlawful order territory. I think we all know why they're requiring these things: part to look like they're doing something, part for CYA in case someone gets sick, and part just in case they actually help people avoid the disease. Not much point in risking angry superiors by questioning those orders. When I was in the Army, I thought that a cap with a bill that kept the sun out of my eyes made a lot more sense than wearing a silly beret, but I wore one anyway.

Vaccines that the brass thought would be useful have long been required. When I processed into the Army, they shot a bunch of things in my arm. I had no idea what they were, and I wasn't in any position to ask (especially with a drill sergeant in the room). If the military can make a good case that a vaccine will improve military effectiveness without hurting more people than it helps, then they can order it. After all, the President can order you without a moment's notice to go into an extremely dangerous situation where people are trying to kill you. We agreed to that when we raised our hands at the enlistment ceremony.

These orders are coming from way up the chain of command. Who are you going to question? The Secretary of Defense? The President? If you make a big deal about it with any of the superiors you actually have access too, they'll just think you're a whiner and not a team player, even if they agree with your points.

You're an SFC. Why not save your capital with your leaders to go to bat for your troops in situations where your input can make a difference.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Aug 23 at 2021 4:00 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 16:00:13 -0400

Is everyone else in your unit dying? Sounds to me there would be a new issue every day, then it becomes a question of do they need you

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Aug 23 at 2021 5:02 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:02:05 -0400

What you can do is get clarification of orders. Go find the S/G/etc. Staff Function that would be the most knowledgeable about the subject and ask them a question. Be clear, you only want to understand the order better, or something is ambiguous or not clearly understood. If (in the unlikely event that) nobody has any good answers, then it might be time to "ask the Commander." At all times, be professional. Never give the impression that you are Not willing to comply.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Aug 23 at 2021 11:59 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 23:59:13 -0400

N95s do protect against airborne diseases. To pass any SRP or remain in the Army, vaccines and shots must be up to date, I really do not see why all the others are ok but such heartburn with COVID.

Response by SFC Rick Brooks made Aug 24 at 2021 12:19 AM

SFC Rick Brooks — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 00:19:53 -0400

well the N95 mask is better than being in MOPP 4

Response by PO1 Leo Scott made Aug 24 at 2021 7:30 AM

PO1 Leo Scott — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 07:30:07 -0400

When I was in you could not ask or demand proof of reason behind any order.

Response by CPL Adam Schoenwald made Aug 24 at 2021 10:56 AM

CPL Adam Schoenwald — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 10:56:50 -0400

There is a time to question orders, but very very rarely. As you know from the rank on your chest you cant just show up like a broke joke, you need tact. You have most likely had soldiers under you sometimes not understand your orders given, and I would hope that you would point out regulations to groom your soldiers in understanding why it's a lawful order and thus they must follow it without fail. With that said, I understand your questioning here, I really do. The whole Covid thing is very confusing especially with the push to get the jab. There is definitely a mixed bag of opinions here in regards to this particular issue. Regs the most important deciding factor. If your not sure I wouldnt ask a social media group even like this one for help, I would talk to a military lawyer or someone you trust within your unit about your concerns, don't be bull headed about it, use tact, but in the end as you know if it's a lawful order its not important that you understand them as much as you follow them when ordered to do so, you can do the understanding part on your free time.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 24 at 2021 11:25 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 11:25:56 -0400

Sure. But disobeying orders always comes with the risk of being wrong. The presupposition is always that an order is lawful unless it can be objectively and definitively proven otherwise.
By the time it comes down as a mandate, whether it's masks, vaccines, etc...it will have already made it through dozens upon dozens of legal reviews, medical reviews and formal opines.

The position that "the entire medical, scientific and legal community is wrong, but I'm right!" is going to be a hard hill to die on...

Response by SSG Dale London made Aug 24 at 2021 10:08 PM

SSG Dale London — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 22:08:26 -0400

This is a basic question and there is no need to go into the circumstances. As a soldier, you are in no position to determine the purpose of an order. You get to ask one question only: is it legal? If the order is legal, you are required to obey it.
As for the rest, you have NO freedom of medical choice while on active duty. Just try refusing pre-deployment inoculations and see what happens.
The simple truth of the matter is that, in the interests of good order and discipline, many of your civil rights are suspended while serving on active duty. For example, your 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendment rights are significantly curtailed during this period. You cannot say whatever you want (1st), you cannot keep your own weapon on post (2nd) and you have no right to privacy or protection from search and seizure (4th). These are just examples of some of the rights you relinquish while actively serving. They are restored when you get your DD214.

Response by SPC Cathy Goessman made Aug 25 at 2021 3:14 AM

SPC Cathy Goessman — Wed, 25 Aug 2021 03:14:58 -0400

Soldiers do not live in a vacuum. They interact with their surrounding communities. They can still spread Covid and kill their fellow Americans even if they themselves are at less risk of dying from Covid. It isn't always about you.

Less risk of dying is only part of it as well. I've seen some people much fitter than the average soldier take months to feel normal again after Covid.

The reason they aren't bothering to explain this to you is most likely because they can tell you aren't interested in the facts anyway so "Chief says" is better than wasting their time.

Response by SFC Craig Titzkowski made Sep 15 at 2021 7:26 PM

SFC Craig Titzkowski — Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:26:46 -0400

Thank you all for your answers. This is a free country and we can disagree or agree. Most everyone is on the same page. I have 16 pages of vaccinations and followed every order while on active duty. Just wanted to see what everyone would say thanks again.