Do you think the Army, as we know it today, should go back to the old Army? Or should it keep its current path??

2014-10-18T11:57:25-04:00

In the 2 years i have been in i feel like the army as a whole is getting soft and weaker and i havent been in that long and i see it... i hear stories from Senior NCO's telling me about old army and at least back than it seemed like there was more order and discipline and you did more army stuff now it seems like they push paper work and discipline is lacking.... i would like to see even drill sergeants get a little harder in you face i thought basic was a lil weak input on this topic... I encourage Senior Leaders that know old army and the army today to put input into this...

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Oct 18 at 2014 12:01 PM

2014-10-18T12:01:12-04:00

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member one thing you'll learn about the military the previous generation will always say how much tougher it was back in the day. One of the reasons the military has gotten softer is because everything now is about political correctness.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Oct 18 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-10-18T12:03:49-04:00

Far too many things have been done to the Army for the sake of political correctness or due to "our society" being so much smarter......What we have done is create a generation of wussified Soldiers for the most part that bitch and moan over trivial shit and more time is spent on EO/SHARP/Suicide Prevention classes than training to defeat the enemy. Some things should never have been changed..ie. standards of physical fitness required to be able to pass BCT, etc.....no, shined boots and pressed uniforms didn't equate to good leadership, but it was a start.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 18 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-10-18T12:29:35-04:00

It's sad, if this is the case. (and I know the PC monster part is the case). Right now the services have the benefit of having the most combat experienced leaders in at least a generation, possibly ever. It'd be a shame, and a disservice to newer soldiers to piss that away by kicking their feet out from under them and making everything all touchy-feely.

Response by SSG Don Waggoner made Oct 18 at 2014 1:30 PM

2014-10-18T13:30:07-04:00

I've been out 24 years. No "old soldiers" in the Army today knows what the "old days" were like, any more than I remember what they were like for the Korean War vets. So, when you hear that crap, think of it like the stories your grandma tells you about how hard she had it when she had to walk to school 3 miles each way, barefooted, through the snow and uphill both ways. When I came in I had never heard of a stress fracture. When I became a Drill Sergeant 10 yeras later, fully 20% of the recruits were getting stress fractures. We had to address that. Things change. Get used to it and try to make the best of it you can. Be a positive influence, not a negative influence.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 18 at 2014 1:47 PM

2014-10-18T13:47:15-04:00

We need to retain the ideals of whatever our version of "Old Army" was. Technology does not and can not replace basic soldiering even for us techno geeks.

No one will ever win a war by Googling for their country.

Response by SPC(P) Thomas Beliveau made Oct 18 at 2014 11:21 PM

2014-10-18T23:21:10-04:00

I read an interesting quote from a book, the point of which was a group of old guard soldiers complaining about the weakness of a new group of soldiers that had just joined up. This quote was from 1914 and was said by British officers commenting on the men who were joining up and volunteered for what would become WWI.

When it comes to behavior and managing groups of people, it is a constantly evolving science. Psychology and sociology expand at a rapid rate and methodologies of motivation change as our understanding grows. Ways of doing things in the past may be proven to be ineffective or less effective then current methods.

Finally, those who go on and on about how "the old ways people knew respect, etc, etc," to me show a level of inflexibility and an inability to adapt. Things change. If all a person can do is complain about how the old ways were better instead of working within the new paradigm, maybe it is time for them to think very hard and long about if they should stay where they are.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 6:14 AM

2014-10-19T06:14:06-04:00

the army today lol

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 12:59 PM

2014-10-19T12:59:16-04:00

So I have been in ALC at Fort Sam for 30 some days and we were told not to correct the " puppies". Wow they need to bring back drill sergeant in AIT!!!!! These kids have no military bearing, why are these group leader not correcting them with more punitive action??? I know TRADOC is the culprit but the big Army needs to see that this is an issue..when the " puppies" arrive at their first duty station they have no common sense of what is right and wrong with in the military, they had no clue that you walk on the left side of your senior, you don't walk and smoke or talk on the phone, you have to salute the flag the right way.....WTH is going on??? I wanted to smoke some of those " puppies" with there attitude of rights....it drove me crazy.. And let not talk about how different the Navy and Air Force is with their uniform regulation.... No wonder those Army puppies are skewed!!!!!!!there is no such old Army or new Army, what needs to be done is to inforce military values and respect and teach these kids the difference from right and wrong. If they deviate a matching punishment is due not just a slap on the hand because they pulled out their stress card. You can't handle the military then why get in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by 1SG Rich Martinez made Oct 19 at 2014 10:08 PM

2014-10-19T22:08:06-04:00

Having been a part of the old and the new Army I strongly feel we need to go back and do some of the things we used to do. We are an undisciplined and untrained Army now and it really needs to change. I know CSMs, SGMs, 1SG, and SFC that have no field craft skills. During a conversation one day we were talking about our old field training exercises and a CSM did not know how to or has ever set up tent.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Oct 22 at 2014 11:15 AM

2014-10-22T11:15:48-04:00

I think the Army is going back to the old army. But you have only seen 2 years worth. For 13 years the Army has been at war and that changed things more than anyone could have imagined. But now soldiers are getting back to doing real training, regulations (however stupid) are coming back and being enforced. This "Old Army" you speak of is a paper pushing army, it's called Peacetime and most people hate it. The only way the Army is going to be different from the Army of old is that you can't haze/smoke soldiers the way you used to. Everything else will pretty much go back to the good ol' garrison life of the Cold War/1990s

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 9:00 PM

2014-10-23T21:00:11-04:00

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member This happened in the 70s when then President Carter took a scalpel and totally eviscerated our forces and further demoralized our forces and this is happening again.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 24 at 2014 12:15 AM

2014-10-24T00:15:18-04:00

I believe Soldiers are better taken care today in terms of health care and addressing needs of their families. Also, the pay of Soldiers and the fact that many individuals are addressing is probably better. The discipline problem the OP speaks is not an Army problem; it is a societal problem. The Army receives young and undisciplined people and while the Army tries to tame some of them, the Army did not make them that way. We should look at society as a whole and address the problems there.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 24 at 2014 12:25 AM

2014-10-24T00:25:55-04:00

Let's get real, lets take it back, way back and use swords, shields, spears, catapults, trebuchets, and slingers. We shall face the enemy with the sun to our backs, and march to every place to we need to go. No shore we leave will be left bloodless. Our Soldiers will even build the roads our infantry will march on. Lets even have gladiator arena fights as well; the entertain will be good for the troops. I just need to figure out who will power our galley ships since slavery is outlawed. I was thinking of contracting third world nationals to row the galley ships. Every battle will have a standard bearer in the front marching to the enemy. Generals will not watch the battle from the far; they will fight along side with our Soldiers. We will crush all who appose the might of the Roman....wait...the United States of America. One more thing, when it comes to a discipline problem, we can do a 10% decimation of the legion...wait...the unit.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 4 at 2015 12:11 AM

2015-05-04T00:11:04-04:00

My advice SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member is this, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Should some miracle occur, PC goes away and the Army can return to what it was when I went in the first time way back in 1979 you may not like what you see about that as well. I am sure there are more old vets and retirees on here who could/can vouch for the validity of my statement.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 4 at 2015 12:22 AM

2015-05-04T00:22:35-04:00

I don't have or receive undisciplined Soldiers because most of the time, they don't act like that around me. Whether old or new Army, I am moving forward to complete a task or mission.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-05-04T10:56:07-04:00

With the options you gave i can not vote. I believer there needs to be a better mix of the two. The old Army had a lot more discipline and resepct but the new Army is developing Soldiers that can think on there feet without be told what to do none stop.

Leaders need to know there Soldiers and know which Army leadership you need to use on them old school or new school.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 4 at 2015 10:58 AM

2015-05-04T10:58:03-04:00

What do you define as old army? What is your MOS?

Response by SGT Kevin Putala made May 5 at 2015 10:47 AM

2015-05-05T10:47:47-04:00

I went through basic training and MP School at Ft. McClellan, AL in 1984, and we were the last group that went through where the drill sergeants could get in your face scream whatever they wished at you and call you whatever they wished, drop you for push ups until they got tired, and were treated in the older ways. Did it suck? Yes, but it made us tougher and more resilient physically and mentally.

I was a holdover after MP school and we got to see the brand new recruits arrive. We were anxiously awaiting all hell to break loose on someone else, and to our disappointment they were quietly lined up and marched away with barely even a raised voice. After voicing our thoughts, our drill sergeant came and informed us of the changes.

I agree that training should go back to the older ways. When stationed in Germany a few years later we received a memo advising us that it would be the gaining unit's responsibility to ensure new recruits were up to standard physically, and that they were not going to be required to pass a PT test to graduate.

I think we have gotten soft and our current Army would have a really tough time fighting the types of wars my uncles fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. We need to fund our military and strengthen it in the way they are trained and funded.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 5 at 2015 10:57 AM

2015-05-05T10:57:21-04:00

I suppose we COULD embrace the old Army, but I have to question the effectiveness of muskets and giant people squares on the modern battlefield. But hey, we all keep hearing about this mythical, perfect ""old Army" so let's give it a shot...

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 5 at 2015 11:35 AM

2015-05-05T11:35:03-04:00

My grand daddy got out in 1920 because the the Army was going to Hell in a hand basket!

Response by PO2 Michael Stinar made May 5 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-05-05T12:17:19-04:00

I was in the NAVY so I'm really not qualified to answer, however I will say that I agree 100% with what SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member had to say on this subject....

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 5 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-05-05T12:19:22-04:00

I agree with SSG Waggoner that making changes is not indicative of weakness. However, I also agree with the SPC that the Army had an undercurrent as the result of political correctness to soften it. The answer I believe is to not slow PC or minority views to guide the military, but rather the thoughts and concepts from those that have truly been in combat. Let the most recent combat veteran set the policies. I will gladly trust them to make the right call.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made May 5 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-05-05T13:02:04-04:00

Go back to the way it was back in the day! I probably will get hell for this but this PC stuff is crap! There not lower enlisted there Junior. A person with low rank or status compared with others. Lower meant, Lower in rank not intelligence. From the definition of the word you are still calling them lower. When did it change! your not talking up, still talking down.
There are other things I could go into but will stay off the soap box.

Response by SPC David S. made May 5 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-05-05T13:02:38-04:00

Not saying that there aren't any hard chargers left out there but to me its seems today's generation is far from where it needs to be in competing with the rest of the world.

Education, work ethics and motivation have been replaced with self-centric entitlement.

Response by TSgt David Holman made May 5 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-05-05T13:45:02-04:00

I don't think going back to the way things are is the right idea, but that doesn't mean that everything we are doing now is right either. The military is a living entity and should be allowed to develop and change with the times.

Response by SGT Kevin McCourt made May 5 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-05-05T13:57:39-04:00

I found that it wasn't the Army as a whole. But if your unit was worth a crap or not. I always considered someone that resorted to paper counseling as a weak leadership trait. I saved it for the dumb dumbs that couldn't get it together, no matter how much other measures were used. Others go for the skillcraft. This was 20-30 years ago. So, how old Army are you willing to go?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 8:37 AM

2015-05-07T08:37:53-04:00

This is a delicate question I think. The Old Army had a lot of flaws that needed fixed, the new Army is WAY TOO SOFT. We cater to everything and everyone. Soldiers are babied in Basic to the point that when they arrive to us in the force they are 1 out of every 10 useless. They have to be taught everything, and ohhh heaven forbid that you actually raise your voice to them, because they are going to feel hazed. It is beyond ridiculous, when I went through OSUT, the methods that were used on us would NEVER fly today, however the amount of bad Joes that actually made it out of basic were far less than today. These bad Joes were FTA in basic, and suddenly they cannot do it anymore. The softies have tied the hands of the Drill Sergeant.
So, bring back the way that it was, quit being so touchy feely and lets be a war fighting machine again.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-05-07T16:03:46-04:00

I believe that the Army can optimize as a force with a blending of the new and the old. I only know the wartime Army, as I joined late in 2004. The lessons learned from the CENTCOM AO and others have been tremendous. The Army exists to fight wars. That means killing people and blowing things up. For that the United States Army owes no apologies. I think it's pretty simple. Focus on what makes us better warfighters. The rest is just so much fluff.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made May 7 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-05-07T16:34:24-04:00

The major problem I see with today's Army is expectations. I was treated more an adult 23yrs ago as an E2 and the expectations were higher than today as a major. I was expected at age 17 to be able to inspect and maintain my own car, expected to get from pt A to pt B without having some other process involved such as vehicle inspections and TrIPS. We do not expect of soldiers anymore except for someone else to be held accountable.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 9 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-05-09T09:37:58-04:00

So far i heard that the new age of army is softer because there are more new rules, back in the old day there are less rules, as i heard from alot of military vets, We get more strict to the enlisted soldier, We hit them if they disrespect. They get more disipline.

Response by SGT Kenneth Wheeler made May 25 at 2015 7:16 AM

2015-05-25T07:16:59-04:00

Go 50/50 the old put the best fighters / the put the smart one

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-05-31T08:34:03-04:00

Want to hear something really crazy? I went through Air Force Basic training in 2006 and Army Basic training (Fort Sill) in 2014. Air Force basic was only 6.5 weeks back then but was still much harder than the current version of Army BCT. As an NCO going back through, i was exempt from some of the BS, however i was privy to a few things. I spoke with the BN Commander after graduation and when asked about my opinion of how training was, i told him the physical part of training was lacking (PRT, runs, smoke-sessions, etc...) His reply was that he knew it was too easy, but they have to cater to the lowest common denominator (the fat out of shape recruits) and due to a vitamin deficiency from living their entire lives indoors playing video games, recruits today are weaker and easier to break. he then asked me how many soldiers were on crutches at that time, or were through some part of training. he was absolutely right, at any given time in training, there were 5-10 people injured from events that shouldn't have been an issue.

Response by CPL Brendan Hayes made Aug 15 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-08-15T09:53:43-04:00

There is an inherent part of human nature that likes to think that everything we do was the best/toughest. A big part of that belief is that everyone who has done the same/similar thing since had it easier. Here is an example. I went through basic training in the mid '90s. The whole time hearing how easy this was compared to the the "real army" of old. Six months later, I heard somewhere, and I can't remember where, that basic training now had stress cards. I've of course since found out that this was untrue. Have things changed in the 20 years since I've gone through boot camp? Of course.

I heard somewhere it is the soldiers' right to gripe. I also think it is the NCOs' right to be nostalgic.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2019 4:24 AM

2019-01-16T04:24:52-05:00

Old Army, New Army, it's not the Army. It's the personnel...were doomed!

Response by SFC Stephen Smith made Jan 16 at 2023 11:38 PM

2023-01-16T23:38:49-05:00

I entered the Army as a very mixed up, confused and maybe even a bit rebellious 17 year old. I learned my morals in/from the Army now it seems they have none.