Do you think the Air Force is handing out E-3 too easily?

2015-04-08T19:52:31-04:00

Do you think the Air Force is handing out E-3 too easily?

Okay to start off I will admit this is kind of a "butt hurt" post but I'm curious of other opinions.

When I joined CAP at the age of 12 I learned if I made it to C/2d Lt I could automatically enlist in the USAF as an E-3. I thought this was really cool and it pushed me to get there. When I finally did enlist however, I was very disappointed that all my extra effort was really pointless. Half of not more than half the airmen I graduated BMT with graduated as A1C's and most of them had really done nothing to earn it except choose a job that offered it as an incentive. I spent 9 years as a CAP cadet and was one of the top 0.05% having earned my Spaatz award and making it to Cadet Colonel. I know the USAF is a whole different ball game from being a cadet but it was frustrating having put so much effort in for a long time and watching people who had only decided to enlist a couple weeks prior also getting the same promotion.

Do you think the Air Force is right in offering E-3 to just about anyone these days or should they scale back? What about the Army's system with a non-leadership E-4. I know people who went through Army Basic as E-4 Specialists. Would the Air Force benefit having a similar program?

Just as an example of how easy E-3 is these days, I personally had 4 things that could have gotten me E-3: College credits, ROTC experience, Civil Air Patrol and the job I chose automatically gave you E-3.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Apr 8 at 2015 7:54 PM

2015-04-08T19:54:07-04:00

Do they have special stipulations that allow you to come out on specific ranks? I was informed that if I had enlisted I would have likely graduated AIT as an E-4 due to my Eagle Scout.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 8 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-04-08T21:53:48-04:00

Well, it could be a few things, CAP, Eagle Scout, college, or signing a 6 year enlistment. Each one gives the Air Force something they want in exchange for something the enlistee wants.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Apr 8 at 2015 10:08 PM

2015-04-08T22:08:25-04:00

I disagree with the programs mainly because I don't think something you did in high school should give you an advantage over someone in the actual military. College credits I agree with but JROTC and stuff, no. I also hold a bitter bias though because living in a small town I didn't have those opportunities and it peeves me to see people who don't hardly deserve E2 let alone anything higher getting promoted and all before me just because they were a good noodle in the JROTC. I was a state FFA degree holder and learned a lot about public speaking and leadership from that which one could say has translated into my current job as a weather forecaster but there was no promotion incentive for that. Granted it isn't as militarily connected as JROTC but I would say it did me better than JROTC ever could have.

I also hold a grudge against the BTZ program but that's one I will keep to myself.

As always, that's my 20 year old E3 opinion. Maybe when I am older and hold more rank (assuming I stay in) my view on that will change but for now I stand in my opinions on early promotion incentives.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 10:11 PM

2015-04-08T22:11:24-04:00

When I went in as an E3 I had similar notions. As it turned out half of my BCT class were E3's or E4's. This was largely due to college credits or civilian certifications in their field. The increase in rank is ultimately just another tool to recruit qualified people. Chances are you had similar opportunities and chose not to take them.

I do agree there are some fields it's more important than others. A college degree isn't going to make you a better Infantryman for example, yet they will still likely get E4 upon graduation. With as fast as we promote in the Army I don't know that it's all that important either way. You can go from E1 to E4 in around two years if you play your cards right. High speed troops can make E5 in three years. On the AF side I'm not sure why there's such a long TIG requirement. Are an E3's duties any different than an E4's?

Response by MSgt William Lucas made Apr 8 at 2015 10:17 PM

2015-04-08T22:17:27-04:00

I enlisted for 6 years in a chronic critical shortage AFSC to get E-3 upon grad from Basic. In my case, it was just more pay sooner. At that time, the AF was playing around with the TIG/TIS requirement for SrA(E-4). I didn't really see on E-4 much sooner and when I did, I wasn't an NCO for another 12 mos TIG. Then I became an E-4 SGT. It was just an incentive to get my body in an AFSC slot.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-04-08T22:24:55-04:00

If you put in the effort you did in CAP while in the Air Force you will likely be considered for BTZ E-4. The new changes to the promotion system will also allow your sqdn commander to give you Promote Now ratings which will give you a huge boost to your promotion chances. The programs to award E-2& E-3 after basic training and or completing tech training are for certain jobs with 20+ week tech schools, high demand jobs, 6yr enlistments, JROTC, CAP and are aimed at bringing in people that have discipline and leadership potential and help manning in careers that need it. The promotion system changes will help motivated leaders get promoted before the people that do not put in the extra work. So any A1C that did not work as hard for it as you did, probably will be no match for you as you'll be ready for E-4 and E-5 that much sooner. Our new SECDEF is promoting bringing in civilians with Cyberwarfare (and possibly other) skills in at much higher rank than E-3 which should be interesting.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 10:50 PM

2015-04-08T22:50:41-04:00

I can't speak for how the Air Force works, but with the Army all the E-2 and E-3 pay grade they give away doesn't affect a person's career in the long term anyway. The time in service requirement for advancement to E-4 means that a guy who enlists at E-3 is eligible for promotion to specialist at the same time a guy like me who enlisted as a PVT E-1.

Response by MSgt Hal Weeden, MBA made Apr 8 at 2015 11:31 PM

2015-04-08T23:31:04-04:00

If it's of any consolation, SSgt Private RallyPoint Member, it doesn't sound like the Air Force has changed the early A1C criteria in over 30 years. In 1983, you could go in as an A1C if you had at least 60 semester hours of college (but you couldn't wear the insignia until after graduation), or you could get A1C upon graduation from tech school if you enlisted for six years active service (back then initial enlistments were six years, not eight years as they are now). I will take MSgt William Lucas' word that enlisting in certain specialties was a third route to early A1C back in our day. I do remember someone asking if anyone in our flight had CAP experience, but none did, so I don't know what they would have gained. We did have one person who had enough ROTC experience to be considered "proficiency advanced." He only had to complete the first half of basic training, and I suspect he was an E-3.

I was part way through my junior year of college when I enlisted, so my date of rank was the day I reported to Lackland. The early rank put me one year ahead of my peers. A much lower percentage of enlistees had college experience back then. I was fortunate enough to make BTZ, so I put on SrA at 22 months. You asked about the Army's non-leadership E-4 position. In my day, you wore SrA for 12 months, then, if you had completed the two week NCO Preparatory Course, you were promoted to the now-defunct E-4 Sergeant rank, commonly known as "buck sergeant." There was no financial increase, and it cost money to purchase and sew on the new insignia, but everyone was glad to spend that money to become an NCO and drop the "Airman" title. At that point we could transition from membership in the Airman's Club to the NCO Club. For those of us who were permanent party at training bases, it was a big deal to get away from the pipeline students.

I later transitioned to the Air National Guard. You should make E-5 much quicker in the Guard than you would AD. If you are a traditional guardsman, the upper ranks may come quicker, too. I was fortunate enough to be an AGR. I wouldn't trade that for anything, but SNCO ranks are tough to attain, and are tied completely to your AFSC and the slots assigned to your base. There was only one E-8 position in my AFSC at my base, and one person was in that slot for 15 years. They eliminated the only E-9 position in 1992, so upward mobility was impossible without moving to the National Guard Bureau.

The bottom line SSgt Private RallyPoint Member, is don't let the "butt hurt" drag you down. You will still be ahead of some of your peers when you put on SrA. Be sure you get all of your PME out of the way at the earliest possible opportunity. Always have all of your boxes checked for promotion. Especially in the Guard, you just never know when one of your competitors won't have one of the prerequisites completed when an opening presents itself. Even at a good unit like Forbes. Trust me on this.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:51 PM

2015-04-08T23:51:16-04:00

Like you mentioned a post below, SSgt Private RallyPoint Member, the Reserve can offer it faster. I was an E-3 out of BMT due to college credits (I went in at 30 and with a Master's), and my orders stipulated that I got E-4 upon completion of tech school and commander approval. I got it five days after returning to my duty station. That's where the speed stopped for me. I was an SrA on 9/11 and left for OTS on 8/14 as a SrA. I wasn't even eligible to put in for ALS until 8/14.

I wouldn't dwell on it too much. Who cares how everyone got there, now distinguish yourself from them with your leadership abilities and start working on your bullets so you can get Airman of the Quarter/Group/Wing or put in for AMS (pending a degree, if you don't have that yet). You'll get your rewards for all of that hard work.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 12:17 AM

2015-04-09T00:17:46-04:00

I don't think it comes too fast or gets handed out too easily. I sewed on when I graduated Tech School (as many do) but during Tech the majority of those with A1C stripes were Guard/Reserve. Sure there were a few going Active with Stripes already on, but that was the exception rather than the norm.

The biggest factor is that E-4 is always a Junior Enlisted rank in the Air Force whereas the other branches have E-4 as either a NCO rank or an optional E-4 NCO rank. This means you still have your time as an E-4 to learn to function properly in the Force before being considered for NCO responsibilities. So even if we do have the majority of our enlisted start out at E-3 once they finish Tech School and/or Basic we don't prematurely promote into the NCO ranks.

Response by CMSgt Richard B. made Oct 25 at 2016 6:41 AM

2016-10-25T06:41:16-04:00

Hang in there! The majority of my service has been in the Guard and reserve, and yes, there are some challenges in getting promoted. The best advice I can offer in for you to be the best, possible Senior Airman that you can be, and you will be ready to be promoted to Staff Sergeant. Don't worried about what has already happened, or what could've been, eyes to the future. Remember that an individual's (enlisted AND officer) current grade doesn't reflect how smart they are, or how capable they are, it just shows their current level of responsibility.

Response by TSgt Gwen Walcott made Oct 25 at 2016 7:15 AM

2016-10-25T07:15:43-04:00

I was going to say no, but E-3 because of CAP?
I was a C/Lt Col in CAP and 1/2 way thru Spaatz testing and was awarded the wonderful rank of E-2 upon enlistment. E-3 came 6 months later when all the E-1s in Basic also got their E-3s. The others that also came in as E-2 were the JROTC people

Response by SMSgt Steve Neal made Oct 25 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-10-25T08:55:17-04:00

Well, I'm not one to bitch, but there are those who put in a good deal more effort, time, military training and experience and got the same "E-3" in the USAF. I attended JROTC for three years in HS; making Cadet Capt as the BN Ops Officer. Because of my high GPA, Sons of the American Revolution award, and DeMolay affiliation, I earned a Cameron University tuition and books "institutional" award, then a 3-year Army Scholarship and attended 3.5 years of college (with ROTC) rising through the cadet ranks again to the command staff level, honor graduate of Army Officer Advanced Camp in Fort Riley, and earned one of only two active-duty commissions (signed by Jimmy Carter) of 47 ROTC class graduates. However, as I was NOT selected to Army Pilot training but being forced into Field Arty, I decided to resign my commission and quit college. Within six months, I was in the USAF recruiter's office with a "guaranteed job" and rank of A1C (E-3). Sure I bypassed AF basic and made Red-Rope (Top student leader) at Tech-School, but what a waste of my prior service experience and military capabilities...

Just make Chief and show them you have more to give...

Response by A1C Tim Yarberry made Oct 25 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-10-25T17:02:28-04:00

I was an SP. It was tough getting rank. I saw guys soar through and get rank quick. SP'S had to wait till someone retired or died to get rank. I served my time and got out as an A1C. I knew a Tech that had almost 30yrs in and he only got Tech a few months before I arrived. It was rough.

Response by Sgt Sal Hirto made Oct 26 at 2016 5:06 AM

2016-10-26T05:06:36-04:00

no -

Response by MSgt Michael Bischoff made Oct 26 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-10-26T13:39:31-04:00

When I came in in (77) they gave the stripes to people in basic, that did go well for them they were targets for the TI's. We had one in our flight who did not make it through, our TI was miserable to him (our TI was a jerk).

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Oct 26 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-10-26T18:26:59-04:00

It isn't just he Air Force that does this. I found out if I would have had a descent recruiter I could have gotten A1C out of basic also due to JROTC, college, or 6 year enlistment and that was in 95'. The first two I know are universal between the branches but all you need to do is be motivated. Take pride in the way you earned it but don't let that give you a chip on your shoulder when you put E-5 on.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 28 at 2016 3:21 AM

2016-10-28T03:21:45-04:00

Both CAP Cadets and Air Force JROTC Cadets that have reached a certain level of training can enter as an A1C, (E3) Others entering as an A1C may give them a little jump on career progression but without some self motivation it may end there. You prior Military training as a Cadet certainly prepared You better than others for Air Force service.

Response by TSgt George Rodriguez made Oct 31 at 2016 2:12 PM

2016-10-31T14:12:03-04:00

Away back in 62 while in basic we were airmen basic E-1 and given $78 a month, when I graduated we were given 1 stripe and were airmen 3rd class E-2. Airmen 2nd class E-3 was 2 stripes and earned after Tech school or 1 year in the field after passing your certification in the career field you were in. Airmen 1st class E-4 was considered a qualified journeyman in your career field and received promotion to that grade after testing showing your qualification to perform at that level. Sometime during 1967 to 1971 (4 year break in service) they split the E-4 grade Airman 1st class and E-4 Sargent. Becoming an E4 Sargent required attending NCO Leadership school. A 30 day program to prepare them for leadership. Since my retirement in 1986 they have done away with the Sargent rank at E-4 maintaining the A1C. E-5 Staff Sargent promotion came with time in grade and time in service with testing knowledge of your career field along with any extra awards and enough points to meet the cutoff. E-6 Tech-Sargent time in grade and time in service with enough points to meet the cutoff. Back then after making E-6 before you could make E-7 Master-Sargent attendance to the NCO Academy was required. Since my retirement in 1986 there probably have been many changes that I'm not aware of. So if anybody has any updates please add them.

Response by TSgt Jim Gregg made Nov 1 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-11-01T17:02:28-04:00

One thing the AF does wrong is that for the below E-4 rank, all airmen are treateds the same. If you got E-3 out of basic you should get more authority than an E-1. This fosters leadership training. You may only be "in charge" of your fellow E-1s and E-2s, but it will get you ready for E-4. That and they should bring back E-4 buck Sgt, it was an eye opener to see troops go from SRA to SSgt, some were ready and some were not.