Do you think receiving an article 15 makes you a better soldier? In the long run possibly a better NCO?

SPC Neil Hood — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:49:26 -0500

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 12:50 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 12:50:43 -0500

SPC Neil Hood. It should not be necessary to go Art 15 if we do best possible effective counseling job.
Warmest Regards, Sandy

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 1:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:20:29 -0500

That might possibly have been the case back when I first joined the Army (many moons ago). In today's Army, a single Artile 15 could be all the ammunition a board would need during the drawdown to show you the door.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Feb 11 at 2015 1:29 PM

MAJ David Vermillion — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:29:20 -0500

I entered the US Army in August 1962 and received an Article 15 in July 1963 along with several others for throwing firecrackers in the barracks. Being young and naive I will admit I was wrong for what I did and I was guilty. Does this action and punishment make me stronger? I would say yes, because I was ashamed and I knew this blemish could follow me throughout my military career. I knew I didn't want any more disciplinary actions again. I will admit I feel I had a successful military career as I believe my past was forgiven as a result of my immaturity.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 11 at 2015 1:38 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:38:32 -0500

I used to hear old timers say you were not a soldier, sailor, or airmen until you had at least one article 15/captains mast. In fact one of my civilian supervisors in the Army had six and made E-9 in the Navy. However, today I do not think you would survive very long but not saying you can't.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 11 at 2015 1:56 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:56:52 -0500

An Art 15 is a corrective action. It can make someone a better soldier, and a better NCO, but it is not required to make someone a better NCO or soldier.

For some it's the RIGHT wake up call. For others, nothing will wake them up.

Story time.

I had a Marine that was constantly running late. Not a lot late, but a little late. I didn't want it to get to paperwork level, so I took corrective action.

I had him meet me at the base of the hill in Camp Horno with a bucket and an E-Tool at 0800 on Saturday morning. Appointed Place of Duty, with Equipment in proper uniform. Told him to meet me at the top of the hill at 0830 with a full bucket. It's about a mile to the top of the hill. Not a bad jaunt, but fairly easy to do. Meet him there, empty the bucket. Meet me at the base of the hill at 0900 with a full bucket. Appointed place of duty. You get the point. We do that until chow. Then do that until 1630.

I never had a problem with him being late again.

It's what you take away from the punishment that makes you a better soldier, not the punishment itself.

Response by MSgt Michael Durkee made Feb 11 at 2015 2:09 PM

MSgt Michael Durkee — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:09:22 -0500

An Article 15 is appropriate for corrective action, if understood as a teachable moment. If the subject doesn't understand the alternatives...they are simply a leaf in the wind.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 2:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:32:19 -0500

Many years ago, I once heard someone say..."You can't make CSM without having an Article 15 under your belt." Not really sure I bought it then, but certainly not now. Especially of you are an NCO when you get one. the way the draw down is happening, any kind of black mark will get you the tan boot to the fourth point of contact.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 2:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 14:40:41 -0500

Lessons learned and appropriate behavior modification make better NCOs.

If that lesson comes in the form of a private conversation, a smoke session, counseling, an Article 15, or just the realization that certain actions will/won't behoove you to take, learn from it.

Applying that knowledge is all a person needs in order to better him/himself as a person and a leader.

Response by SGT Nia Chiaraluce made Feb 11 at 2015 3:33 PM

SGT Nia Chiaraluce — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 15:33:27 -0500

When I first joined the Army I was told you needed three things to be a good NCO.
Have a divorce
Have at least 1 Article 15
Be retained after a DUI
In today’s Army these words would never leave my mouth to a junior enlisted. As stated above any of can cost you your career before it’s even begun. The explanation was what actually resonated with me though. Have a divorce, so you as a leader, have the potential to learn the perspective of what it means to have a family, be a soldier with a family and potentially forge balance between the Army and them. By nature many of us have a tendency to over work even if we have families, without that perspective as a PLT SGT you may cause undo strain on a junior enlisted family unintentionally just to meet mission constraints. Have an Article 15. This was more so again about perspective, however also taught me it’s about how you recover after you receive one. Resiliency and perseverance are also key here. Maintain your career after DUI, frankly no longer applies. I am a big advocate for proper counseling sessions, getting to know your soldiers and outsourcing to the lowest level to help mitigate the risk of those occurring. A genuine ear with advice can help more than you ever realize.

Response by SMSgt Bryan Raines made Feb 11 at 2015 3:51 PM

SMSgt Bryan Raines — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 15:51:50 -0500

An Art. 15 if used correctly, non-judicial punishment, should be corrective in nature and should, not will, make the person a better soldier. Unfortunately in today's climate it often results in a discharge or non-reenlistment eligible. If the soldier "survives" the 15 and reenlists many times they are very good NCO's mainly because they learned the lesson being given and are able to counsel/mentor their troops from an attitude of understanding. However, the majority of NCO's can and do counsel/mentor their troops from a perspective of learning the lessons from watching what happened to their peers and acquaintances. "The best way to learn is from the mistakes of others." - Old Army NCO saying

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Feb 11 at 2015 4:28 PM

SP5 Michael Rathbun — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:28:07 -0500

Tend to think not, overall, but my experience was limited.

My shop OIC in Germany put me in for the Field Grade Max, which would have meant sending spouse home and moving back into the Kaserne for the "confinement to quarters" bit. During a field exercise I had deployed my excess signal maintenance capacity to remedy a critical problem at Corps Arty. Of course, my OIC had some sort of political feud going on with them.

Fortunately, about the time the BN CO got that paperwork, a letter of commendation from the Corps CG also arrived on his desk, citing the very activities that had cheesed off my OIC. He won, in the end, of course, and I got levied to RVN.

Friday Formation was a lot less unpleasant than I had expected.

Response by MSgt Tim Craig made Feb 11 at 2015 5:34 PM

MSgt Tim Craig — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:34:03 -0500

No absolutely not!! An Article 15 is usually in the hands of the wrong judiciary...those who discipline you for infractions...serious UCMJ infractions. Not those who discipline you for simple things that we all get wrong initially or due to misunderstandings or misdirections...sometimes insubordination is also included ( (depend on how much free speech length of rope you get from your bosses). I am talking about someone at least two tiers above your organization, and with education and credibility.

The reason is not to make you a better anyone (soldier sailor airman Man Woman) but I think the reason is to deal with your UCMJ infractions with a seriousness and objectivity that it judiciously deserves.
I had to deal with Article 15's several times as a mid level NCO and was glad that it was justly and honestly dealt with (2 members left the service honorably instead, and the other one was dismissed on bad reports and poor supervision). Had they taken Art 15 right off the bat, they would have been worse off.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Feb 11 at 2015 8:25 PM

SFC Collin McMillion — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:25:28 -0500

If the problem is not of pretty serious nature, I believe an oral reprimand telling the soldier of an AR-15 and it's effect on his record should be first. If an AR-15 is called for then the soldier should be made aware of the fact this is the beginning of a step to ending his career or can be used by him to realize everything he does will reflect on him and and record, but not too late to reverse his course.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 12 at 2015 3:23 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:23:00 -0500

SPC Neil Hood, I would never be an advocate for someone having a punitive action as part of their "career portfolio". That being said, I would agree with the comments of others that if one proceeds positively with their career after an Article 15, it could be an impetus to becoming a better soldier.

Response by SPC Lee Burner made Feb 12 at 2015 3:45 PM

SPC Lee Burner — Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:45:23 -0500

It's like asking if spanking produces better children. In my opinion, yes, if they learn from it.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 10 at 2015 6:31 PM

SSG John Erny — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:31:54 -0400

Back in the 80's it was very easy to get an AR-15, I knew NCO's who had been busted back to E-4 and made it back into the NCO Ranks. I even saw a Drill CPL once, how that happened I will never know, word is he got busted back a grade.

At one time the Army was big on punishment rather than kicking people out. For example you had the Corps Correctional Facility better know as Charley's Chicken Farm. They did fun things like dig big holes with a shovel, build sand bag towers, and every S--t detail on post. If you really messed up you could be sentenced to hard labor for x number of years, and yes that is what it was hard labor.

Discipline was enforced with fear of the consequences, and if someone messed up they would make and example out of them. Even the training was wash harsh. NCO's used to rough up a Private that messed up. I saw DI punch a recruit in the gut, he deserved it BTW

These things are not done anymore; we no longer have a million people in the Army and the Soviet Union is gone. Now it is kind of like the civilian world: Your Fired, takes a little longer but that is the essence of it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 4:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:18:17 -0400

I have heard this time and time again, and quite frankly I say no. Yes, we all stumble from time to time, but an Article 15 is not what I would consider a requirement for being a better Soldier/Leader.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 16 at 2015 4:21 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:21:24 -0400

As far as actually making a better troop, I would say yes. However, nowadays, paperwork from what I hear is almost a career ender.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Apr 16 at 2015 4:22 PM

TSgt David Holman — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:22:07 -0400

Yes and no. Receiving an Article 15 isn't going to make you better at anything... it isn't meant to. How you handle it, however, makes all the difference in the world. If you show that you are willing to put in the effort to overcome the punishment, own your mistake, and learn from it, then yes, it makes you better. If you take it as "so and so has it out for me" or "this isn't fair" then you will probably be looking at civilian select anyway.

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Apr 16 at 2015 4:25 PM

SSG Thomas Brousseau — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:25:55 -0400

Absolutely not. What it makes you is a Soldier that is not going to make it passed the current down-sizing of the military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 1:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 May 2016 13:22:33 -0400

Not in todays army. It might have been acceptable a few years ago but in todays environment it might be all your leadership needs to show you the door. Good luck.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2016 8:14 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 20:14:30 -0400

Yes and No but most likely yes, hitting a soldier in the pocketbook is a good way to get his attention but some of us are a little tougher than others and it takes additional conditioning to get our minds right..

Response by SGT Edward Hetrick made Aug 14 at 2016 1:07 AM

SGT Edward Hetrick — Sun, 14 Aug 2016 01:07:48 -0400

It all depends on whether you learn from what youve done. You cant keep making the same mistakes and expect to gain.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2018 1:24 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Sep 2018 01:24:07 -0400

I know this is a little late but. That's what counseling are for. I'd recommend you keep a copy of every counseling you receive good and bad ones. They are good to reflect on.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 19 at 2019 11:37 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:37:59 -0500

No. This is just something turds say to make themselves feel better for being caught doing the wrong thing...

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 27 at 2020 9:54 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 21:54:26 -0500

It is not the article 15 that makes you a better soldier or NCO. It is the ability to learn from your mistakes. Some people have that ability, some don't.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Jan 27 at 2020 10:43 PM

SFC Dennis Yancy — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 22:43:38 -0500

Getting AR15 means your NCO has done all he can and is now time to really get your attention.