Do you think or feel that civilian education equals promotion in the military?

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 07:31:06 -0500

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Nov 7 at 2016 7:49 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 07:49:48 -0500

No but it is becoming a requirement- so will change my answer to yes

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Nov 7 at 2016 7:52 AM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 07:52:12 -0500

Unless things have radically changed since I retired, civilian education is critical if you want to remain competitive. Completing PME on time is of course a given however back in the late 70s - early 80s I can recall promotion board statistics that suggested you need more than just PME. First they included percentage of selectees with a second bachelors degree. Later they included selectees with advanced degrees and still later they included selectees with more than one advanced degree. I can only imagine what board statistics reveal now. When you see information like that coming out of promotion boards it's pretty obvious that you need to continue with civilian education if you want to keep up with your peers that are being promoted.
Everything on your list of questions matter and a void in any one can hurt come promotion time.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Nov 7 at 2016 8:03 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 08:03:56 -0500

Eh not really... personally I found civilian education to be a lot of waste and fluff. I think I learned more from military PME than I did in college. Now I'm not saying education isn't important or valuable, but most college degrees are padded with Gen Ed requirements which are basically just fluff courses. At least military education teaches you what you need to know whether it's be pay grade or by MOS, you're not getting wasted knowledge.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Nov 7 at 2016 8:43 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 08:43:09 -0500

I've seen members promoted over their peers simply because they had CIVED their peers did not. The fact these members couldn't lead a unit out of a piss soaked paper bag open in 12 places didn't seem to matter. I agree CIVED should be stressed but it should NOT be the deciding factor on who gets promoted or not.

Response by SSG Derrick L. Lewis MBA, C-HRM made Nov 7 at 2016 9:01 AM

SSG Derrick L. Lewis MBA, C-HRM — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:01:59 -0500

CW5 Sam R. Baker -Great thought provoking question. However, I have yet to experience the advantage or benefit of my civilian education. Out of the aforementioned options within your survey, it is my belief that they all matter when being evaluated for promotion. Through my personal experience, I have been aligned with my career development model, gained the broadening assignment experience (Recruiter), worked various positions both within and outside of my MOS and succeeded, completed my required PME (Through SLC), multiple deployments, solid performance ratings, completed a B.S., M.B.A., and currently working on a Human Resource Management certification as I prepare to start my Doctorate degree early in 2017, however promotion still eludes me. As I have been a SSG for going on 7 years. Reading articles on the direction and organizational posture of the Army moving forward, education has been highlighted as an "X" factor moving forward; but what isn't mentioned is how your credentials and attributes can be both a blessing and a curse depending upon the eyes of the person viewing. Yet, I am not disgruntled or angry, I keep pushing forward and grinding because I have to best posture myself and my family for life after the Army. Granted if I retire as a SSG, does not warrant a failure of a career. It just simply was not in the cards. Granted I understand that so many variables are associated with the dynamics of promotion, slot allocations, EO, etc; yet I will still be moving forward until the finish line. Only 2 years, 34 months, and 30 days. Anything can happen within that window of time. Be well and thanks for the post.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2016 9:25 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:25:04 -0500

You can often tell which senior NCO has or has not attended college based on the quality of their writing. PME does a crap job at developing writing skills for enlisted personnel. Officers on the other hand get their boost from their four year degree, and then they polish their skills at ILE.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 7 at 2016 9:27 AM

PO1 Steven Kuhn — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:27:14 -0500

I feel that all education is important and adds value.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 7 at 2016 9:50 AM

SFC George Smith — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:50:24 -0500

I wish is could just fly away to My own private island... and tell the rest of the world to FOAD...

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Nov 7 at 2016 9:52 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 09:52:04 -0500

I voted performance, but to me, it's the whole package that matters. There are certain things that education can't deliver, but there are others that you can't learn from just on the job training.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2016 10:06 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 10:06:08 -0500

Option #6: I want to know where to buy that cup in the picture!

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Nov 7 at 2016 10:55 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 10:55:52 -0500

As a senior NCO, I preferred a soldier with experience, but as a junior soldier -- it's part of the rules of the game to get promoted, so take advantage of your educational opportunities. Lastly, as a civilian, education is an investment that keeps on giving to me and my family -- Keep on learning and growing. AATW!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2016 12:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 12:34:49 -0500

At this day in age a degree is only a check the box in both the military and the civilian side. For me personally I joined the Army with zero knowledge in the IT field. In two years I was on the same level as my friends who went to college for almost the exact same thing. Now after four years they are out of college and still cant get a job because they have no experience. I however can leave the army with the training and knowledge that I have gained along with certifications that I applied the knowledge of my MOS and passed the tests. I still don't have my degree although I am a few classes away from a two year degree. And the biggest reason I am getting it is because I know that as a leader it is required of me and it gives me an extra point if I have to go to a board against one of my peers. I also know that the army is only going to be a fraction of my life. I enlisted out of highschool and if I am fortunate enough to do 25 years ill be 42 when I retire. By then it will be a whole new book of my life. I know that the first thing HR will look at when I apply for a job is a degree. So I will get one.

Now to the original question. Yes it is a requirement for promotions. For enlisted SMA Daily has made it clear that he feels it is important for a leader to have a college education. Now just under a fourth of my promotion points come from civilian education. When I see SSG's get picked up for SFC they have a degree. Sometimes its the NCO's that some would think shouldn't have made it. To be a Warrant you need a two year degree. To be an Officer you need a 4 year degree. And once they are looking to be a field grade/BN Commander and higher the individual is either working on their Masters or have already acquired it. There have been articles that the SGM Academy is working on making it possible for Soldiers who go through to come out with a Masters degree.

Response by MSgt Richard Randall made Nov 7 at 2016 1:14 PM

MSgt Richard Randall — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 13:14:09 -0500

If you’re enlisted and pursuing civilian education solely for the purpose of getting promoted you’re wasting your time. If you’re enlisted and pursuing a civilian education for yourself, your family and your future then it’s worth it. If you’re an officer it’s almost mandatory to pursue an advanced degree to keep advancing up the ladder. I’ve somewhat a mixed opinion as to whether an advanced degree will produce a more effective leader in the officer corps. That being said, I had a friend, an Air Force Major, who had graduate degrees is both in electrical engineering and computer science who went on to receive a PhD and work at DARPA. So, as with everything else in life, YMMV.

Response by Sgt Alex Stone made Nov 7 at 2016 1:59 PM

Sgt Alex Stone — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 13:59:53 -0500

This should depend on the actual CIVED. For example, if you are in an IT field and earn a degree in computer science or cyber security, yes I would say it is relevant and could be looked at along with your PME / experience. Specific education directly related to job performance is the only time I see it being relevant.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2016 3:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 15:50:56 -0500

Not from my experience. Many times, when I applied what I had learned from school or experience, I was accused of thinking too much. One time, I was reamed for 20 minutes when I used the word dilapidated instead of derelict.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2016 4:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 16:12:51 -0500

Yes

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made Nov 7 at 2016 5:25 PM

SPC Matthew Birkinbine — Mon, 07 Nov 2016 17:25:08 -0500

Civilian education is, a key toward promotion, but I feel the area I struggled with the most was APFT and height and weight. I was always within 1-2% either way of my max body fat, no matter how much I weighed.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2016 6:50 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 06:50:57 -0500

Civilian education is a side dish, not the main course. Performance is the main course. Take it from a 22-year E-6 with an MBA, industry certs, no NJP, above-average operational rotation, above-average cutting scores, average performance marks and 10 years TIR at retirement.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2016 9:35 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 09:35:45 -0500

My original warrant packet was denied because I did not have BLC and I did not have a feeder MOS for a 120A. I have 14 years of documented civilian experience in the construction field specifically construction management, an MBA and graduate courses in construction management and project management. I understand the philosophy, but in some fields that cross military and civilian lines such as construction or IT civilian education and experience can be just as valuable. Coincidentally I graduated BLC and reclassed as a 12k. Warrant selection board in December. Wish me luck.

Response by SGT William Revis made Nov 8 at 2016 9:50 AM

SGT William Revis — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 09:50:03 -0500

I went to college on active duty back in the 70's a lot of us did.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2016 10:55 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 10:55:00 -0500

During the initial part of my career as an officer in the Air Force you had to have a graduate degree to give you an edge for a promotion unless you were a pilot. So, I got my masters degree as quickly as possible.

After I retired I was told they would withhold graduate degrees from promotion folders because more and more were being deployed and couldn't go to school.

As far as my opinion: I think in any position, military or civilian performance should count far more than education.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Nov 8 at 2016 12:47 PM

Lt Col Robert Canfield — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 12:47:33 -0500

As many senior officer and NCOs will tell you, your most important job is the one you currently have. Having said that, you can't JUST be good at ONE job and then retire in 20 years as an E-3 or O-2. Our military does not work that way. So.... you must have: education that is relevant to your career field, PME, plus a variety of other employment experiences. All of these elements prepare you for the future jobs to come. As you progress in any career, you need to know more "stuff" and develop more people/leadership/organizational skills. In addition, there is the reality that human physical performance peaks out in your late twenties, early thirties. A forty year old just does not have the same stamina as someone in their 20s. So; you have to develop more skills and education to make up the difference, work smarter, and effectively lead and mentor those with less experience.

Also, there are many positions where civilian education is the most important aspect to fill even an entry-level position in the military: like Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers etc. Its cost effective to just leverage the civilian schools to teach the initial skills, then augment it with special training to fill in the military-specific knowledge gaps.

Response by SPC Brian Mason made Nov 8 at 2016 2:48 PM

SPC Brian Mason — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 14:48:49 -0500

Of course. Why should someone with more education be penalized? Say someone with a 4 year degree decides to enlist? They will have far superior skills and knowledge than HS graduates or those who don't have any education or experience past high school. I went in as a PV2 and was promoted to PFC at my 11 month of being in the Army. From there I was able to get an early promotion to SPC along with another fellow medic who also busted their tail.

Response by SCPO Frank Carson made Nov 8 at 2016 2:50 PM

SCPO Frank Carson — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 14:50:48 -0500

If all other things are equal then education is the tie breaker.

Response by MCPO Mark Durland made Nov 8 at 2016 3:42 PM

MCPO Mark Durland — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 15:42:29 -0500

Equals? No. Factors in to? Of course.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Nov 8 at 2016 4:46 PM

SGM Joel Cook — Tue, 08 Nov 2016 16:46:23 -0500

For Senior Grade NCOs I believe it does. While I was attending USASMA, SGM's Academy in 1999-2000 it was stressed to finish my associates degree, which I had been working on for 16 years. I had 182 credit hours (72 required for Associates degree) but no degree because I had never been able to get two required courses to get my degree. I finished my 2 year degree immediately and eventually finished my bachelor's degree befor I graduated the course. We actually got two hours of duty time on Tues and Thursdays to go to college. If you didn't go to college you got put on one of many shit details, like desert police call or class room monitor at local schools. At that time counselors were saying the regulations for promotion to MSG and SGM were being rewritten to require an Associates for MSG and Bachelors for SGM. To the best of my knowledge it was never produced before I retired in 2005. Do any MSGs or SGMs currently on active duty, have an update on that for us on degrees required to pin on top three or four NCO ranks. I also know that studies have been done that seem to prove that college degrees do increase our wage earnings.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Nov 9 at 2016 11:18 AM

SSgt Michael Cox — Wed, 09 Nov 2016 11:18:56 -0500

For the AF you are unpromotable if you don't have at least your CCAF you won't make E-7.

Response by PO1 Timothy Harcey made Nov 9 at 2016 5:49 PM

PO1 Timothy Harcey — Wed, 09 Nov 2016 17:49:21 -0500

You must be well rounded so with that said, they all matter. Education helps you as you advance UP the ranks in a multitude of areas. How you preform helps you with superiors and juniors. Ticket punching is based on how the unit preforms so it helps you. The type of assignment helps as the more challenging or difficult the command, location or mission. Just being in and how long with basic military job education helps as it enhances your knowledge. So balance is key ti have a successful career. The cream will always come to the top. So if you are balanced you will go far and if you can influence, motivate, inspire and have the military personal of any rank. These people will wish to have you work for them, work under your command you will be a great person in command of a multitude of people and equipment.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Nov 10 at 2016 10:02 AM

CSM Andrew Perrault — Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:02:57 -0500

I would say that it's a combination of these. I was always of the view that taking the tough job and leadership positions were key.

Response by Sam Levine made Nov 25 at 2016 8:41 PM

Sam Levine — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 20:41:58 -0500

Yes, anything that can strengthen our national security & awareness is important, relevant, can and should contribute to a promotion. Outreach is part of that.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2018 3:12 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 03:12:27 -0500

Definitely not. In fact some traditional military pipeline people will try and squeeze out or marginalize those who didn't pursue the traditional military educational path. They want to promote their schools or educational process over all others and the military gets weaker.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 16 at 2018 12:15 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:15:57 -0500

A combination of several of these is what matters. Does anyone here want a Brain surgeon who has a skill set based upon PME? Didn't think so. How about a pilot who can't read? Or Commander who only went to schools? Like Whiskey and Wine, sometimes you need the blended version to bring out the best.