Do you think my Article 15 was appropriate for letting my auto insurance expire?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:13:29 -0400

I was given my very first Article 15 due to my Auto Insurance being cancelled, and therefore not present for a POV inspection. I immediately corrected the issue, and had active auto insurance within the hour. I called my old insurance company to figure out what happened, and they told me I had been dropped. I was never notified. So, I corrected the issue accordingly. For the Article 15, I was given 7 days restriction and extra duty, though I believe that was a little harsh, given that I didnt even know that there was an issue to begin with. What do y'all thik. I have served the time, and it is over and done with, and I accept that I was wrong. But do you think they went a little far with it?

Note: Photo added by RP Staff; subject is NOT the discussion poster

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 26 at 2015 2:19 PM

SGT James Elphick — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:19:42 -0400

That seems a little excessive for what should be an on-the-spot type correction, i.e. get it fixed by COB. Also, if something was wrong with our POV's back in the day, we were told we couldn't use them, we didn't receive an Article 15 for it. This sounds like the type of military that gave UCMJ for wearing white socks in combat....

Response by SFC Walter Mack made May 26 at 2015 2:25 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:25:08 -0400

The Army is people, and sometimes those people make strange decisions. That said, there's your side, and your command's side. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made May 26 at 2015 2:24 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:24:32 -0400

While I'm not an officer and not knowing anything about your prior performance, I would say if it was the first time you were found to be in this situation then I would give you a counseling statement, order you not to drive until you had the situation correct and give you a time line to correct the issue. If you failed to correct the issue within the time given, than sure I would consider moving to something more along the lines of a Article 15.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 2:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:25:09 -0400

Is there more to this story because that does seem really excessive for not having auto insurance? An event oriented counseling and a plan of action would have sufficed.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made May 26 at 2015 2:30 PM

SrA Matthew Knight — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:30:29 -0400

That seems considerably exessive. I had a friend at my last base who got pulled to the side for a random search and he had two major infractions, the first was he didn't have his license on him (he lost it with his wallet) and the second was his insurance had expired I believe. Security Forces escorted him back to the dorm parking lot and told him that his car better not move from the spot it was parked until everything was sorted out. I don't think it ever elevated above that even though they could have handed out a far more severe punishment.

I guess each command IS different in many ways.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 26 at 2015 2:32 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:32:12 -0400

You can appeal and the next higher authority can set it aside. But talk to your trial defense attorney first.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 26 at 2015 2:37 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:37:45 -0400

IMO vehicle inspections (POV Safety inspections) are supposed to find out that kind of issue. If the issue is corrected, and not a chronic issue that has been corrected many times before, then it should be an on the spot correction with a directed corrective action. I would not have referred you for UCMJ punishment with the information provided here.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 2:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:37:56 -0400

Since I am only getting one side of the story being yours I would it depends on how much extra duty they gave you and if you presented any evidence from your old insurance company stating they dropped you without notice. If you did not produce this then I would say 7-14 days extra duty is about right if you did then I would say 3-7 days and that would be for not keeping track of your personal affairs. Just my opinion but I do not believe there is a right or wrong answer to this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 2:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:41:46 -0400

I'm glad I'm not in your unit, SPC Private RallyPoint Member . What is your leadership going to do for a bigger infraction? Death by firing squad?

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 26 at 2015 2:44 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:44:00 -0400

Sounds to me like someone had a bad day and decided to take it out on you and make an example out of you. Based on the information provided it seems excessive to have been referred for UCMJ and given an Article 15 for something that can and should have been NCO business to ensure was fixed on the spot. Since it is over and done with like the song says "Let it Go!".

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 26 at 2015 2:46 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:46:16 -0400

Even given a negative history (not making assumptions) I would say if you have provided sufficient evidence it is a bit harsh.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made May 26 at 2015 2:47 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:47:06 -0400

Seems way out of line to me. I would never have considered an Article 15 for a clerical error that someone else made without your knowledge.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 26 at 2015 2:47 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:47:38 -0400

I hate to say this, but doesn't pass "sniff" test.

Where was your Insurance card? If you had that, why would there be a question of your Insurance? If you didn't have it, why not?

Was this a planned POV inspection? If so, I assume they provided a checklist. That said, proof of insurance would have been on it. Why didn't you have your insurance card? In the modern era, I can print mine off NOW. As you said, you were able to correct it by the end of the day, therefore, if it was a scheduled inspection, and you didn't have your card, you would have been able to correct the deficit.

Furthermore, "if" it made it to Art 15 level, you could have presented evidence on your behalf, like the previous several months receipts showing consistent payments.

"Most" people understand administrative errors, and if this was a simple admin error, having documentation would have helped your case.

But not having required items on a checklist, then not having anything to back up your story, calls into question your integrity. I'm not saying your story isn't true, I'm saying that it's questionable from a position of authority.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made May 26 at 2015 2:55 PM

1LT William Clardy — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:55:07 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member, unless you were wearing a properly secured reflective belt while operating that telecommunications device, I think you were actually the object of incredible leniency...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 3:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:02:17 -0400

I would say the punishment doesn't fit the crime. However there is other things to consider such as does the unit or BN have a no tolerance when it comes to Insurance. Is this the first instance of misbehavior or is there a track record of counseling statements to support the Comapany grade?

Response by SSG John Erny made May 26 at 2015 3:04 PM

SSG John Erny — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:04:35 -0400

PFC Italino Pietrantonio,

I had some off the wall insurance company at FT. Bragg that one of my NCO's suggested; turns out his wife was an agent. I paid for 6 months and found that State Farm was cheaper, I purchased a policy with them and let the other lapse. I was not a day or two latter and the chain of command was all over me. They actually called the 1SGT to tell him I had no insurance!

My PSG came at me in kill mode yelling how much trouble I was in and that I had to go see the commander; I could not get a word in. Finally I blurted out that I had switched insurance companies. I then got the you better prove it and it better not have lapsed riot act. I proved it and it all blew over, but something tells be that Butts were already chewed all the way down to my level before any facts were checked.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 3:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:12:28 -0400

I can't help but think something is missing from this story. Likely before this incident. Potentially another incident, in this COC, involving insurance?

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made May 26 at 2015 3:25 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:25:18 -0400

I was involved in an auto accidents. The person who hit me had an insurance card. But when they contacted me they told me it had lapsed. And not to bother us again. Now the state can void his license and he can be taken to court by my insurance providers. To cut to the chase the punishment may have been harsh and undeserved. But you found out sooner rather then later. And got the problem resolved.

Response by SPC Donald Moore made May 26 at 2015 3:47 PM

SPC Donald Moore — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:47:44 -0400

Sorry. If they thought they were wrong, they wouldn't have done it. Now that you have an article 15, there is really no reason to ask if we think it was right or wrong. You are stuck with it.
Unless things changed, you can NEVER get that off your record.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 4:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 16:26:08 -0400

Hopefully you've learned an invaluable lesson, and you will never again go without insurance.

Like everyone else has said, there's too little information to really form an opinion on your Article 15. Keep in mind that the CO makes his decision based on recommendations he receives from the 1SG through your First Line Leader(s)/PSG.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 4:34 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 16:34:44 -0400

If this was not a reoccuring issue and you corrected it as soon as you became aware of the issue as you said, then I would say it's a bit excessive. I believe a counseling statement would suffice. I would make it a point to discuss the reason you were dropped from the policy, whether the nature of it was financial or driving record based. Just to make sure there weren't any other issues.

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 26 at 2015 4:37 PM

Sgt Cody Dumont — Tue, 26 May 2015 16:37:25 -0400

I think the 1stSgt should have stepped in there. Once something similar happened to me, and I was basically given a few hours to show it was not a failure in my part. Once I showed that, my 1stSgt stood up for me and inaddressed the issue and nothing more was said about it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 5:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 17:20:18 -0400

Something you have to realize, is that when UCMJ is recommended, it generally follows a trail of paperwork. Have you been counseled prior to an incident or event (negative)? That's what we're saying when we imply that there are missing pieces.

Now, as an NCO, it's a Law in Hawaii to operate a motor vehicle with insurance. If I had a Soldier who was a good- not stellar- performer, I would still counsel them and give corrective action accordingly.

If the Soldier has ridden on coat tails before, and has an integrity issue, then I would RECOMMEND, but consult with my leadership.

You have the right to appeal the Article 15. I don't have the regulation off hand, but that is your right as a Soldier. Chalk this up to a lesson learned. One of the most effective ways to get through to a Soldier is to take their time, and it sounds like you've learned your lesson.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 26 at 2015 5:24 PM

SFC Joseph James — Tue, 26 May 2015 17:24:20 -0400

Hell yes that went to far! I got a CG Article 15 (7&7) for defying a pass mileage order. I wasn't supposed to go past a few miles and my buddies and I loaded up a jeep Cherokee from Ft Campbell and went to Pennsylvania! We would have gotten away with it if one of our friends didn't show the PLT sergeant the picture of us standing in front of the "Welcome To Pennsylvania" sign!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 5:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 17:28:31 -0400

First: There is nothing in any Federal Military regulation that states you must have auto insurance. State laws take care of that.
Second: There are base regulations that do require you to maintain insurance, but only as required by states or, if a state actually allowed uninsured drivers, as a matter of requirement in that military personnel should be required to have it - the same as if I'm riding a motorcycle on a base in a state that doesn't have helmet laws, I can be required to wear a helmet in order to ride on that base.

It sounds like one of three things is going on here: 1) Your command has it in for you for some reason (either because you screwed up big and they didn't get you then, or because you have a real crappy command team), 2) your command has way overstepped it's authority (because some one has a desire to "set an example" or "make an example"), or 3) some combination of both.

In BS cases like this, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS consult with JAG, and never let any one just "give you UCMJ".

BTW: Unless there is more to this story than what has been already stated, you have a legitimate case for an IG Complaint. I would seriously consider it. Make sure you keep ALL documentation, get copies of any counselings (good and bad), and get copies of all financial statements. Call the previous Ins. Co. and demand that they send you a letter explaining exactly when and why they dropped you. There is something wrong there.

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made May 26 at 2015 6:03 PM

SSG Eddye Royal — Tue, 26 May 2015 18:03:12 -0400

I was the training NCO for two years, at FT RILEY, KS. For HHB 1-5. They, send out warning young man, they also let your LINE Command Know when it cancelled.

more to your story, and your work history...

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made May 26 at 2015 6:13 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Tue, 26 May 2015 18:13:57 -0400

Thats BS.. What is his name? I would put that commander on blast on Army WTF Moments. These fools need to be exposed. Your commander is an epic piece of shit.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made May 26 at 2015 6:23 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Tue, 26 May 2015 18:23:20 -0400

Based on the info provided, you may have violated Article 86 (Failure to Report) and Article 92 (Failure to obey order or regulation). By your own admission, you wasn't present at the POV inspection when were supposed to be.
Ditching the inspection to handle the insurance problem isn't an excuse for not being at your place of duty. Its appears to me (reading between the lines) that you received the Article 15 (in part anyway) for trying to cover up not having insurance. The command took a firm position to discourage this behavior.
Compared to the legal and finance issues you could have faced getting in an accident without insurance. you got off light with a summary article 15.

Response by SSG Adam Wyatt made May 26 at 2015 7:22 PM

SSG Adam Wyatt — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:22:26 -0400

Something tells me that you pissed someone off and a packet is being put together little brother.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:30 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:30:52 -0400

On the surface, that is like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

I feel as though there is more to this story. You had no prior counselling, LORs, etc.?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 26 at 2015 7:29 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:29:40 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member, I assumed you received a summarized article 15 which means you did not lose or pay unless it was suspended. I suggest you learn, live and move on. I am not going to second guess your CoC or your NCO support channel in an open forum. You need to know something about an article 15 and that you can get one for just about anything. You had an infraction and failed to have auto insurance on your vehicle which is also a misdemeanor which carries a fine of around $225 for the first time with possible court. A ticket would actually be worse. I am a Military Police officer, and I have cited over a dozen service members and civilians for failing to maintain their auto insurance along with driving privileges suspended on post. I have dropped that hammer of justice without even given a thought to call the CoC first. Even though your insurance company dropped you without notification, it is your responsibility to make sure you are good to go. I have auto insurance with USAA and I check my accounts at least twice a week, and I check my insurance status since I am online. My payments are also automatic. No, drive on and draw fire.

By the way, I hate to sound like hard ass. Try having a traffic collision without auto insurance. I have seen it and been a victim of a someone that did.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:29:47 -0400

Without knowing both sides of the story, it appears too draconian. Recommend talking to your commander outlining all steps to correct the problem and your concern about keeping your records clean and being a good soldier. If that doesn't help, then see consult legal services and/or the IG. In all cases convey the attitude of a respectful professional squared-away soldier.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:40 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:40:12 -0400

I had a situation somewhat familiar in that I had overlapping insurance and the insurance did not run out. Mr. Lassiter (you prick) started threatening me and so I went to the JAG. He said to tell the Lassiter dude that I am protected regardless by the Sailors and Soldiers Act and if he has a problem tell him my attorney wants to talk to him. lol

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:48 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:48:40 -0400

should have gone to courts martial......not like a jury of peers would hold that up.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:49 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 19:49:22 -0400

should have gone to courts martial......not like a jury of peers would hold that up.

course i am assuming you knew or were briefed that you did not have to accept it.

You'd be amazed how many Article 15s disappear if you opt for trial. NOTE: you better be sure you're right.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:07 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 21:07:01 -0400

Get them to make a letter and you can see about getting it removed from you record. You could have used the letter in your deference but it is a little late now.

Response by GySgt Robin Boggs made May 26 at 2015 9:07 PM

GySgt Robin Boggs — Tue, 26 May 2015 21:07:12 -0400

So were you charged with unauthorized absence because you missed the POV inspection, or for some other charge for not having auto insurance? If you were UA, then Article 15 was justified. Otherwise, it was a little excessive for getting your insurance cancelled.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:21 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 21:21:19 -0400

In not knowing if there is another side of the coin to your event and assuming it is as you've stated, I'm trying to figure out how in the hell it got to the Commander attention for acton and how Article 15 ever got brought up.

I recall this being 1SG and NCO business. You parked you car until you brought me proof of insurance, counseling by PSG and/or Section Chief. If it happened again, then your driving privileges were suspended for 30 days. If then it came to a third time (which it never did) only then would I approach the commander for any kind of action.

Was this a Summarized Art 15 (hope so)! If it was, it will not follow you once you dpart the unit. Some lessons are learned the hard way, even by accident.

You may want to look at changing insurance companies since this one has already shown they will drop you without any notification what so ever. I'm glad you were not involved in an accident of any kind during the time it was canceled.

Now with all that being said, if in reality you're an air head, craphouse lawyer, smartass and always pissing someone off, challenging authority, and like to "poke the bear.....eventually the bear will bite you back. Take a good look at yourself, take a few minutes to think about what your leaders have said about your performance, attitude, professionalism, integrity, etc. If you think they are all full of it.....then I will say, you got what you had coming! Hopefully this is not the case and you're a victim to an example of some piss poor unit level leadership.

As you've said, you've done your time, it's over....time to move on! Good outlook!
Good luck!

Response by SFC Jeff Gurchinoff made May 26 at 2015 9:45 PM

SFC Jeff Gurchinoff — Tue, 26 May 2015 21:45:39 -0400

Well.... since you are looking for honesty and all... I call BS

When you get auto insurance you get a piece of paper that provides proof of insurance valid until expiration. If they in fact did cancel you without your knowledge you would still have proof of insurance through your original policy date. During a POV inspection NCO's or other inspectors do not have the authority to call your insurance company and personally verify your policy is up to date. That is none of their business.

Soooo they would not have known your insurance was expired if your company dropped you mid cycle as you claim. ONLY unless you ALLOWED it to lapse and the only insurance you had in your vehicle was for a previous coverage period could you have been caught.

In that event, you failed to maintain proper paperwork on your vehicle and you did in fact violate the order of the post commander. EVERY post commander directs anyone operating a motor vehicle on post to properly register and insure his/her vehicle in order to take advantage of the PRIVELAGE of operating a vehicle on a Federal Military installation.

If I had to take my gut instinct into account (and I do) In my opinion the UCMJ was justified. 1, for the very reason you are failing to mention and 2, the fact you fail to mention it eludes to other Bullshittery that I am sure compounded the situation further validating the action.

You asked RP for an opinion, Have mine..

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 21:48:16 -0400

I think it was little harsh . I would have just given you a counseling statement about it. Howerver, I think your NCOs and chain of command wanted to send a message to your peers stating that dont tolerant people who dont pay attention to detail. Because you have to understand that if you had gotten into a car accident or seriously hurt abd there was no pov inspection on you, then who would've gotten into serious trouble. The company commander abd the 1SG is for responsible for everything abd everyone in that company. It doesnt matter how smile or little it i and they could've gotten a bad evaluation or relive. In the end you know not to do next time. It was harsh , but i do knoe from my experience I learned things better the hard way. You will be okay, I have seen alot of NCO who gotten Article 15 when they were privates and keep moving. You can make progress

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 26 at 2015 10:05 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Tue, 26 May 2015 22:05:21 -0400

There's probably more to the story...would need to hear their side and the truth.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 26 at 2015 10:11 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Tue, 26 May 2015 22:11:31 -0400

This doesn't pass the smell test. As mentioned else where, looks like building a package.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 26 at 2015 10:36 PM

MSgt Brian Welch — Tue, 26 May 2015 22:36:26 -0400

I don't know you and I'm not going to assume anything about you so you take my opinion for what it's worth... Generally when someones punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime it's because of the cumulative effect of many prior instances of poor performance. If that is the case it's for you to turn around. Superior performers get the benefit of the doubt do they not? If a supervisor can't do without his "go-to-guy" he's not going to mess with him over such a small thing is he? So you got to ask, are you the go-to-guy in his eye? Or to tow the line a little more?

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 10:39 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 22:39:48 -0400

First thing is first, ignorance is no excuse for violating the law (lack of insurance). Not saying you are stupid, I mean ignorance as in the true meaning of the word which is "not knowing". It is your personal responsibility to know the status of your insurance.

That said, 7 days restriction and extra duty? As a PFC? That is a slap on the wrist. It won't follow you and if you are a good Soldier it won't really impact your promotion to E-4 except maybe by a few months if at all.

Other things at play is your general performance up to that point. Are you the guy who is always late? Did you request and get approval to be absent? Did you screw up at a bad time and the CoC were looking to make an example? Why was your insurance dropped? Did you fail to pay?

There is more information that needs to be given before one can say it was excessive.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made May 26 at 2015 11:08 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Tue, 26 May 2015 23:08:25 -0400

excessive.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made May 26 at 2015 11:40 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Tue, 26 May 2015 23:40:27 -0400

Everyone interprets Art 15 differently. If all you received was seven days with no loss of money, I find it appropriate. If you had wrecked with say a new Mercedes and found at fault, your finances for many years to come would be ruined, so seven days restriction and extra duty is not so bad. I would have as a leader called you into my office, called the insurance company together and explored the cancellation with no notification. I would need proof that this was the case not to take some action. Article 15s are non-judicial for a reason and serve as a good slap on the hand that will not ruin future success. Mine was 23yrs ago at basic for leaving my weapon against a tree and it was a lesson not repeated in Afghanistan.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made May 26 at 2015 11:56 PM

SA Harold Hansmann — Tue, 26 May 2015 23:56:39 -0400

Heck, in high school I put insurance on my vehicle went to the dmv got my plates then cancelled my insurance.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 27 at 2015 12:30 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 27 May 2015 00:30:38 -0400

If you accepted ART 15, you must of thought it was fair. If not, you could have requested trial by courts martial. I personally think it is excessive, but I don't know the rest of the story, and I am not your commander.

Response by SPC(P) Mark Newman made May 27 at 2015 12:32 AM

SPC(P) Mark Newman — Wed, 27 May 2015 00:32:53 -0400

I didn't even know that fell under UCMJ. I think a counseling statement would have been plenty. But then, I'm a fellow junior enlisted man, so if I was an officer or NCO, I might think different!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 6:30 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 06:30:58 -0400

Excuse after excuse...man up and accept your punishment. Not only are you a Private and theyre going to be on you like flies on u know what...theres a lesson being taught to you and all the people in your unit. Bet you dont let that happen again. Sorry bro but you might wanna fill out my feelings are hurt report. Laws are in place for a reason. It only takes a couple seconds to wreck into someone may be seriously hurting them and with no insurance you could do time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 7:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 07:19:52 -0400

Was your art 15 a bit much maybe, maybe not. A couple of point I would like to say one you could of not accepted the art 15 and asked for a court marshal. or if you believed that your art 15 was to much you could have appealed it. I would say learn from this get a new insurance company and keep your stuff on the up and up and don't worry about it this art 15 will not follow you. Its over move on a learn for next time.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 8:19 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 08:19:05 -0400

O.K. What is your prior performance like? Have you been "Wrote Up," Counseled, or had any Memorandums For Records wrote up on you, for your performance, or attitude?

Not having insurance is a huge issue. How many Lawful Orders are you in direct violation of when you are drvining without insurance?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 8:27 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 08:27:41 -0400

Tad excessive to say the least. I am curious, did they give you 24 hrs to present your defense against the Article 15?

Response by PV2 David Minnicks made May 27 at 2015 8:56 AM

PV2 David Minnicks — Wed, 27 May 2015 08:56:07 -0400

Something doesn't smell right with not only your insurance being dropped without you receiving notification, not being prepared for a POV inspection where even if a checklist was not provided that you wouldn't have already had a valid insurance card and finally if it is as stated why you still received the verdict and punishment as listed.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 10:01 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 10:01:27 -0400

That's a bunch of bullshit! Who is your commander? Was it the company CO or the BC?! An officer can do counseling short of an Article 15! If you want to alienate your troops and be an asshole, that's the way to go!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 11:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 11:36:54 -0400

I would have to agree with many others on the subject that there must be more to the story. If your commander jumped straight to Article 15 for something like that then your first line leader or the 1SG could have stepped in and assisted in modivating you to a resolution.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 12:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 12:40:41 -0400

I agree with a lot of my pers below, the ART 15 was excessive and should have never been brought in to question or enforced period. I assume this was a Summarized Article 15 and I would go and ask the question to JAG becaue the summarized are done at the company level and never go to jag anyway. Just a thought.

Response by SFC Tyrone Almendarez made May 27 at 2015 1:24 PM

SFC Tyrone Almendarez — Wed, 27 May 2015 13:24:40 -0400

You pissed someone off. That was just a reason to build a packet against you. Stay motivated and dedicated. Be proficient in your job and competent. If you get a written up for farting next bring it up to your chain of command.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 4:42 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 16:42:00 -0400

The summarized article 15 is a powerful and I also believe underutilized tool. It doesn't take money or rank nor does it crush a career. It, along with administrative reduction, should be used more often.

There were times that I had to beat my face over stuff I didn't did. Yes, it sucked but it would have sucked worse had it been a company or field grade (in that case, you can always ask for a court martial)

Another thought: did you consult with trial defense services?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 4:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 16:49:43 -0400

"Not present for a POV inspection."

It sounds like you received your UCMJ for failing to be at your appointed place of duty. In which case, it was a very light punishment, you didn't lose any rank.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 4:50 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 16:50:09 -0400

According to what you say, it is a little excessive. I could understand it if you knew about it and drive without insurance. if documentation was required by your chain of command, a counseling statement would have sufficed.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 5:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 17:05:34 -0400

These types of decisions made at command levels include lots of input from NCOs based on your performance, attitude, behavior, and track record.
I have to assume there is more to the story than just insurance expiring.
This isn't the place to look for attention or vindication of you dislike your commanders decision though.
Just work hard and you'll be fine.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 5:16 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 17:16:35 -0400

I was not going to comment but changed my mind.

A. You did not have to accept an article 15. You could have allowed charges to be filed and trial held.

B. Regardless of the reasons, the fact is you drove without coverage. It is your responsibility to maintain coverage. I find it somewhat unbelievable that coverage could be dropped without your knowledge.

C. I think there is, as Paul Harvey would say, "The rest of the story"

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 27 at 2015 5:49 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 27 May 2015 17:49:15 -0400

1: We have one very limited part of the story.
2: no where near enough information to make a competent honest opinion on the validity or fairness of your story.
3: In general, with NO other previous counseling for a like or related issue, recent safety briefing that covered POV operator requirements, instructions or prior notice of the upcoming POV inspection it MIGHT appear as the punishment did not fit the infraction.
4: If you had proper notice of the POV inspection, you FAILED to set conditions for success. When you know your weapon is going to be looked at.. Do you inspect, clean it prior? When your room is going to be inspected, checked, do check to see if the garbage is empty, dirty clothes picked up, generally neat and safe? Assuming yes to that, why would not not look at the specific documents you KNOW will be looked at during a POV inspection?
5: Make you a deal,, you want an informed, unbiased opinion in effort to better yourself..??? Send me a message with your chain of command and NCO support channel contact info. Unit, Names, Duty position, phone number and email of each. Squad Leader to Bn CDR
As an unbiased third party interested only in mentoring a young Soldier I'll contact those folks and see if I can get info that would help you understand where you stand.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made May 27 at 2015 7:25 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 27 May 2015 19:25:03 -0400

How fast did you blow through the school zone while driving an unregistered vehicle? And to quote the late Paul Harvey, "and now, the rest of the story... "

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 7:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 19:32:28 -0400

I wouldn't even give you a counseling statement... I would have had you call your insurance company on the spot and resumed your coverage. We would have went to my office and printed your new cards and voila! You would be in compliance. As for prior performance, if you were a marginal Soldier I would have corrected the issues and not recommended and AR 15 for this occassion... Sometimes we as leaders forget we were young once too and just need to get Soldiers squared away without resulting to formal documentation. However, I am not in your CoC so therefore this is all mere conjecture on my part. Just remember to take care of your Soldiers one day!

Response by PFC Jim Mills made May 28 at 2015 12:12 AM

PFC Jim Mills — Thu, 28 May 2015 00:12:05 -0400

If what you're saying is accurate! Then no I don't believe it is far to receive an article 15 ! But I will say this there is an old saying soldier " handle your business before it handles you " I learned that the hard way ! Rock on

Response by SFC Bryan Reed made May 28 at 2015 2:23 AM

SFC Bryan Reed — Thu, 28 May 2015 02:23:40 -0400

With so little information it is impossible to give a verifiable answer. In my experience, commanders do not like to give Art. 15's because they are bored. They have enough to do as it is. What is your work history like? What does your counseling packet look like? Why didn't you have proof of insurance, since it is required on every post and in every town in this country???

A summarized Art. 15 that took a tiny bit of your time is not extreme, compared to they could have taken your money. If you had gotten pulled over, on or off post, and had not been able to provide valid proof of insurance, that would be a ticket and a hike in insurance premium. I'd rather lose a little time than money.

You got off easy.

Response by SFC Clark Adams made May 28 at 2015 4:39 AM

SFC Clark Adams — Thu, 28 May 2015 04:39:28 -0400

What's up with your local JAG not to mention your CSM? How did your appeal go?

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made May 28 at 2015 4:52 AM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Thu, 28 May 2015 04:52:22 -0400

I'd say it's a little extreme.

Response by SFC Mike Edwards made May 28 at 2015 4:56 AM

SFC Mike Edwards — Thu, 28 May 2015 04:56:04 -0400

No you shouldn't. That is so lame. Don't they have anything better to do.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 7:48 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 07:48:41 -0400

I am not a JAG Officer so what I am about to say is only my opinion. I agree with SGT Keen. You may have been "that guy", which is to say this had happened before in the command and the commander decided that the "next time" he would give the ART 15. If so, he should not have. Every case and person should be looked at individually.

Another theory is higher HQ required the punishment based on guidance and a new program to rid the command of POV offenses because subordinate units were not taking this issue serious enough.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 28 at 2015 9:15 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Thu, 28 May 2015 09:15:38 -0400

So, was the Art 15 for having out of date insurance and driving (tehcnically illegal) or for missing an appointment?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 9:23 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 09:23:30 -0400

I would say it depends on the circumstances and prior history. Also, if you were operating the vehicle without insurance it becomes a different issue in regards to the motor vehicle operating instructions handed down by the base and in accordance with host nation/state/federal laws. That being said failure to obey any of these can be considered Art. 92 "Failure to obey" and thus you have the non judicial punishment handed down from an officer.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 10:03 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 10:03:15 -0400

No, not at all, if the facts are presented as you state. Often there are other circumstances leading up to someone's frustration with a soldier, or someone is a bit over zealous.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 11:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 11:05:19 -0400

All you received was 7 days extra duty and restriction. Nothing you can do now. Just pick your head up and drive on, lesson learned. Unless it hurts or costs me money, I would not worry about it to much.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 11:43 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 11:43:17 -0400

You are asking for an honest opinion in a forum full veteran and active duty, about an issue that im super sure we all know about it, I have been in active duty for 17 years and I haven't see a commander that will try to push through an ARTICLE 15 for something as simple as you said, you should know that there is a legal department in every duty station, where your article 15 go for review, if the article 15 do not goes there with a paper trail, believe me that won't fly, they would recommend your commander a different approach, and the commander 99.9% of the times follow the recommendations, because the commander is not a lawyer, so saying so, I do believe the punishment it is not harsh, what ever you actually did convinced your CO, 1SG, BC and CSM that you deserve an ARTICLE 15

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made May 28 at 2015 1:33 PM

MSG Gerry Poe — Thu, 28 May 2015 13:33:43 -0400

There is always more to a story when it is told from one side. If I was the leadership in this case; first offense most likely would be a counseling statement with corrective action and a follow-up. If it is a repeat offense, sometimes a little money taken and some extra duty is needed to show leaders care about their soldiers. So all I can say is, "do your best at not doing something that will get you in trouble, always lead from the front. Being a leader something that happens even at peer level"!

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made May 28 at 2015 1:49 PM

SFC Mark Bailey — Thu, 28 May 2015 13:49:22 -0400

I have to admit, there are pieces of the story that are missing;
1- You need to present valid Insurance documentation, which you should have had
2- Someone had to tell them you were not covered (nobody calls GEICO)
3- Was there any counseling statements prior to this infraction covering insurance?

It does seem excessive but the facts are not all present, so either you did something previously someone did not like or they simply have decided to make an example of you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 2:03 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 14:03:33 -0400

Sure there's more you're not telling but 7 days is a slap on the wrist... I've done 45/45, loss two ranks, dealt with the whole nine yard and still driving forward. Now talk to me about resilience.

Response by SGM Robert Speakman made May 28 at 2015 2:51 PM

SGM Robert Speakman — Thu, 28 May 2015 14:51:39 -0400

I AGREE WITH SGT KEEN, 1ST TIME WRITTEN OR ORAL REPRIMAND

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made May 28 at 2015 3:47 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Thu, 28 May 2015 15:47:46 -0400

If all is as you say, and there are no other facts or prior behavior issues, then it's a very harsh punishment for the crime. You didn't say at what level the Art 15 was issued, but you are always safe to admit your mistake, apologize up the chain, and request leniency based on your previous unblemished record. And, you are legally allowed to seek counsel and with legal help, decide if you will accept or deny the Art 15 and force the issue to Court Marshall.

Response by SGT Jimmy Carpenter made May 28 at 2015 6:48 PM

SGT Jimmy Carpenter — Thu, 28 May 2015 18:48:04 -0400

During the process of your AR15 you should have been given the opportunity to talk to JAG, did you?

As for already doing the time, what does it really matter now what anyone thinks? Unless something has changed since I got out, a company level AR15 doesn't go in your personnel file so once you PCS from that unit, that's it. It's like starting with a clean slate.

Response by PFC Dennis Burk Lintz made May 28 at 2015 7:39 PM

PFC Dennis Burk Lintz — Thu, 28 May 2015 19:39:57 -0400

You accepted the Article 15 and all it entails even though the punishment went a little too far. Why did you accept the "Article 15" UCMJ when you could have requested a "Courts Martial?"

Response by SGT Tyler C. made May 28 at 2015 10:28 PM

SGT Tyler C. — Thu, 28 May 2015 22:28:00 -0400

No action can really be taken unless there is a paper trail to prove that you were properly made aware of what could happen if something happens to your vehicle/insurance/license ect. You should have been counseled first after the issue was brought up then if it happened again proper measures would need to be taken. Just my two cents.

Response by SGT Justin Thomas made May 29 at 2015 5:30 AM

SGT Justin Thomas — Fri, 29 May 2015 05:30:16 -0400

What did your basic training, stress card say? Sorry, I was thinking of the magic 8 ball. But, you should be receiving your application for induction into the Specialist Mafia anytime now.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 6:07 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 06:07:15 -0400

Too many counseling statements and article 15s definitely didn't need to be taken any father than just a conversation. Because you're not at fault when you get dropped from your auto insurance and they don't tell you. It's not like you can read minds. But here's the messed up part if a senior member did the same thing they would have just gotten a slap on the wrist or nothing would have happened.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 29 at 2015 7:40 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 29 May 2015 07:40:09 -0400

I agree with SGT Ben Keen here. It is reasonable to say that we would need more context re: your performance and disciplinary history, as well as whether this was a first time offense. I can think of easy scenarios where your Art 15 was fair and the right thing to do. I can also think of scenarios where you should have just been counseled.

Without complete information into everything, it is hard for me to feel comfortable second guessing your chain of command...since I wouldn't have wanted people second-guessing me with limited information.

Best of luck to you either way!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 9:12 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 May 2015 09:12:53 -0400

Something that jumps out at me is "...not present for a POV inspection." Does this mean you were told to be somewhere and you weren't? THAT warrants an Article 15, not a first time offense for letting your insurance expire. It sounds like you either pissed somebody off or are not telling us the whole story.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made May 29 at 2015 11:02 AM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Fri, 29 May 2015 11:02:49 -0400

If, indeed, that is how it happened, who is your asshole Captain? Did you deserve an interview wit the XO? Sure. Once you explained, though, you should have been dismissed. Article 15 should not be a first resort and can work against Good Order and Discipline, as well as for it. For that matter, this should have stopped at your supervisor or lowest Sergeant. If it didn't and I were the XO, that Supervisor and his Supervisor up the chain to me would have had a little closed-door pep talk.

Response by COL Thomas F. made May 29 at 2015 3:53 PM

COL Thomas F. — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:53:31 -0400

Take the following as a learning experience and not personal... great way to start eh?

An old Sergeant Major (and I mean old, must have been at least 50 back then) told me back in the '90's when I was enlisted... if you haven't been demoted or article 15'd in your career, you haven't served. I always find that humorous even 20+ years later, but in today's Army its a death blow to the career. Luckily for you, yours will pass over so file it away as a war story for when you make NCO. I will assume this was your HHC CDR who bestowe this honor on you since you work in the S3's office (company level Art15) and not your BN CDR (field grade) which is a blessing in itself. I've seen BC's discipline their own staff members and remove it out of the HHC Cdr's hands. Not pretty... So as both a former enlisted MP and MP officer for many years, I give you my 2 cents.

First off, AR 190-5 is the publication that covers driving privileges on an military installation. I'm surprised your 1SG/PSG didn't make you read it. Remember, its a privilege to drive on base and not a right. Based on your statement, it sounds like you were driving around without auto insurance before the inspection as you indicated you corrected the error AFTER the inspection. Not having insurance for a vehicle inspection is a violation per Chapter 2-1a(4)(c) and if you did, then not having it on you is in violation of Ch. 2-1a(4)(f) . You obviously had to drive to your location at some point, so that is violation of Ch2-1(b), movement without insurance . As such, your commander was well within his rights to Art15 just on these three infractions. Trust me, a commander can do the deep dive on regs and pubs to find things wrong if he thinks you're not playing nice.

Second, IMHO, I can't believe in this modern age you didn't receive an email or letter from your insurance that you were dropped. Even if you were dropped early for an unknown reason, you most likely had an annual, semi-annual or quarterly insurance card in your card that should have covered the day in question. If you didn't, then it happened after coverage elapsed so you were in error for not following up with it and getting it fixed before the end coverage date. You get the idea...

If I was your commander, I would make POV safety your additional duty for the unit ensure all Soldiers were in compliance for at least a year. That would give you some vital education and make the unit better. Good thing I'm not your commander eh? :) On the flip side, if you did a good job (no accidents, no violations from the unit), I might even recognize you for your efforts at the end of your tour. Nothing like a little hardware for the jacket to help your career along.

Again, consider it a lesson learned and work with your buddies to make sure something similar didn't happen to them. Best of luck to you. I'm sure you wont forget your insurance card again.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 2:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 14:00:53 -0400

Where did the photo come from for this story? Obviously it isn't you, did you choose it or is it generated by rally point?

Response by COL Jeff Williams made May 31 at 2015 2:07 PM

COL Jeff Williams — Sun, 31 May 2015 14:07:53 -0400

There must be more to this......

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 2:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 14:19:21 -0400

Honestly the only way that we can give you a solid answer is if we have both sides of the story. Seems as some things are omitted from this story. Is your supervisor on RP and if so can they shed a little light on the subject? Explain their side as to why?

Response by SSG Ronald Ray made May 31 at 2015 2:20 PM

SSG Ronald Ray — Sun, 31 May 2015 14:20:46 -0400

Here is my reasoning for calling "BS" on this one. Simply based on the title and the content of the PFC's post. Title of post is:
"Do you think my Article 15 was appropriate for... check this out...... letting my auto insurance expire?
Then in the body of the post states he "didn't even know that there was an issue to begin with."
Yet, he states in his title that he let his insurance expire. This leads me to believe he had knowledge as to the validity of his insurance. This also means he DROVE his knowingly uninsured POV to a likely NCO conducted POV inspection. Other circumstances surrounding the decision to use Summarized? I would believe so.
My recommendation would have been to contact the Soldiers Squad Leader and let it go through the proper channels from there. No one should know you better than your Team and Squad Leader. As a Squad Leader I would have the PFC sign a statement agreeing not to operate said POV until Insurance was verified by a proper authority within the C.O.C.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 31 at 2015 2:29 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Sun, 31 May 2015 14:29:44 -0400

Going to have to call bullshit on this. The only way your unit would know if you didn't have insurance is if you were involved in some sort of motor vehicle incident. Be it accident or ticket.

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made May 31 at 2015 3:28 PM

CPO Jon Campbell — Sun, 31 May 2015 15:28:27 -0400

You may be better off with an article 15 than with being caught by civilian police. Depending on the state, your license could be suspended, and /or your vehicle tags suspended. If a person is operating a vehicle with no insurance, and stopped by the police the car is usually towed and if your license is suspended as well (for failure to maintain insurance) you could go to jail. The fines, court costs and tow bills can easily top $1500 and it can take days or even weeks to get things straightened out.
From the point of view of a command, you do not want your people tied up with civilian court problems. It is much better to head off the issues on base and impose strict policies to make sure that troops stay out of trouble.
Just to be on the safe side, you should check to make sure that your drivers license wasn't suspended too. Many of these things happen automatically and there is often several days of lag time between computer updates in government systems. You may have fixed the issue with the insurance company, but have a bigger issue lurking with the DMV.

Response by SSG Scott Burk made May 31 at 2015 4:17 PM

SSG Scott Burk — Sun, 31 May 2015 16:17:43 -0400

I think if the facts you presented are accurate, (I will give you the benefit of the doubt) I think this punishment was WAY too severe. Getting an Art 15 for something that was totally out of your control doesn't reflect a good light on your chain of command. I would to JAG or the IG and see if you can get this reversed if possible.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 6:52 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 18:52:15 -0400

I personally would have just talked to you about it one on one and left it at that

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 10:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2015 22:00:24 -0400

Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) is the Commander's tool, to correct minor infractions without referral to Courts Martial. Though every offense charged under article 15 could qualify for trial by Courts Martial, article 15 allows unit Commanders to impose lesser punishment as an attempt to rehabilitate, rather than severely punish.

Is the article 15 fair? Even with the limited information in this post, I would say yes. 1. you knowingly took the responsibility of owning and operating a vehicle. 2. maintaining proper insurance on any vehicle you operate is your responsibility. 3. paying your insurance premium and renewing prior to expiration is your responsibility.

Whether or not your insurance was cancelled without your knowledge is irrelevant. Unless, at some point, your insurance company made a clerical error and mistakenly cancelled your coverage without you knowing (this is assuming that you have a clean driving record and are up-to-date on all payments).

The fact, that you stated, your insurance was not present for POV inspection, tells me that you either failed to renew, or simply didn't carry the required insurance identification card. Either way: your fault, your failure, your punishment.

Or, if you prefer, it could go to trial by Courts Martial and result in jail time and discharge.

Response by SSG Dr. Roy Coble made Jun 1 at 2015 10:36 AM

SSG Dr. Roy Coble — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:36:26 -0400

Every state has its own laws regarding insurance requirements. There are some that don't require liability, even in this day and age. But, regardless, the Federal post does, so you should have it. Second, if the case is that the insurance company didn't notify you then you should take your case to the State's Attorneys General office and file a complaint against that company. Third, use your smart phone and input a reminder on there to notify you when you policy payment, or renewal is due. Blaming the insurance company, the agent, the command, etc. is bad Soldiering. Man up and take the punishment, because ultimately you are responsible for your own actions. Let's pretend for a minute that in the time you were without insurance you ran into a van load of kids and someone died. At that moment you would wish for only an Article 15 to serve as a life long reminder, instead of the judgment placed against you for current and future earnings. Take it as a lesson learned and move on.
The question of whether the command took it too far, I don't think so.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 6:25 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 18:25:46 -0400

No they didn't go to far with it. It's your responsibility to maintain your bills insurance and any other financial matters. Once something like this happens like driving without insurance and you get into a car accident and someone gets hurt, your going to pay out of pocket or your going to prison. This is why is NCOs do checks. "JOES" can't do anything by themselves, and blame their supervisors when they get into trouble. Man Up accept the responsibilities of being an adult and a soldier. Pay your bills, maintain awareness of your account statuses ect ect ect.

Response by SGT Kevin McCourt made Jun 2 at 2015 3:17 AM

SGT Kevin McCourt — Tue, 02 Jun 2015 03:17:32 -0400

The point is moot, seeing that you already did the restriction and extra duty. Overseas, your CO commander has a lot of say when it comes to even owning a POV. Abide by the rules, and life is sweet. I never had an Art 15 during my 10 years of active duty. Each person has their own experience though.

Stop dwelling in the past. Learn from it and drive on.

Response by SFC Emerson "Zeus" Hazzard made Jun 5 at 2015 2:02 AM

SFC Emerson "Zeus" Hazzard — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 02:02:22 -0400

The problem with your question is that you are assuming that those given the power to execute nonjudicial punishment are wise. While that is the case at times, most of what I have seen over 20 plus years rises to the level of a kangaroo court. Often decisions are fueled more by attitude or office politics than thoughtful deliberation. If you have a problem with that you are in the wrong business.

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Jun 11 at 2015 8:07 PM

SSG Thomas Brousseau — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:07:02 -0400

It all depends. If you must maintain a high level security clearance then MAYBE, because it could effect your clearance and deployment status. if not I would say NO.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jun 11 at 2015 8:30 PM

LTC Kevin B. — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 20:30:23 -0400

Seems a little harsh, considering that you quickly corrected the problem. That wouldn't have been my approach. However, I could see how someone who is a stickler for the regulations would think you're fair game for non-judicial punishment (especially if you had advance notice of the POV inspection).

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Jun 16 at 2015 8:49 AM

SSG Brian Kresge — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 08:49:45 -0400

I manage the development and maintenance of insurance software in my civilian career, standard/nonstandard auto and other commercial lines, as well as P&C.

First, your insurance card will have expiration dates on it, as well as your policy definition. Notice of cancellation is required by law...if you had been dropped, even if it was for nonpayment, there is a by-law requirement of cancellation notice. So I have to ask the question, if your auto insurance was cancelled, how would your chain of command have known unless they saw a card indicating a lapse in coverage? Even if you were not notified, the absence of current coverage is a dead giveaway.

It's not my intention to be harsh, but the end of the story ends up being implausible. If you didn't receive notice, and can demonstrate that, you have a case against the insurer that could have staved off an Article 15.

Driving on a military installation is, more than in the civilian world, a privilege and not a right. If you were to have an accident on the installation and harm or injure another soldier and his/her family, the absence of insurance would mean very grave things for both you and the other soldier. Maintaining legally required coverage is a profound responsibility that demonstrates not just check-the-block adherence to vehicle laws, but your commitment to yourself and your fellow service members.

That said, no, a company grade Article 15 is not too harsh. Follow this through...had you been in an accident without coverage, think about the nature of the punishment you would be facing. Think about the possible consequences for yourself and others had this not come to light.

Response by CPL Timothy Bell made Jun 30 at 2015 5:20 PM

CPL Timothy Bell — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 17:20:48 -0400

Was there a previous DUI or something?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 5:31 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 17:31:19 -0400

If you were in the Air Force, I would be totally blown away. The Army though seems to hand out Article 15's more than the Air Force gives out LOR's though.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2015 8:56 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:56:10 -0400

More is going on here than what is being told to us. 1. Your proof of insurance card doesn't magically transform itself to state you were dropped. 2. No one would have known unless you told them (there is no authority to verify your card.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 17 at 2015 10:16 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:16:34 -0400

SGT Ben Keen I think you are spot on.
SPC Private RallyPoint Member There are always multiple sides of any story. What you are saying is that you got an Art 15 for what is essentially an administrative error.
Commanders must take into account the totality of a situation in making a decision to go forward with NJP, as they have many options at their disposal to "rectify" issues, and most commanders use NJP as a last resort to send a strong message. The reality of this Art 15 is that you got some extra duty, when you could have lost a stripe and/or money.
Assuming that you are a solid troop, with no other issues, and there was no negative outburst while this "inspection" took place, that led to the discovery of the lack of insurance, you could make an argument that an Art 15 was harsh. However, I have no idea what the commander has in terms of issues with this specific type of behavior-meaning, there may have recently been a host of accidents involving troops with no insurance and the commander is attempting to send a strong message out that financial responsibility is crucial to success and survival.
What the takeaway from this for you should be is this: You got some extra duty, you fixed the problem, you can definitely come back from and survive the NJP with hard work and a positive attitude. You are not the first PFC to make a mistake and recover. Sometimes the best judge of the character of a person is how they react when faced with adversity.
Wish you the best, learn from it and succeed, do not let this minor negative action define who you become.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2015 10:57 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:57:19 -0400

I concur that there must be more information we could draw from to form a conclusion (there's unsaid volumes that could shape a response here either way). HOWEVER...I will state that I've personally dealt with the heavy-handed treatment of junior enlisted by DOD police (and sadly some commands) when it comes to similar issues. The ship pulled in from a float once to discover the BC had secured parking in our crew lot for paving...one week after we departed. When the time came, base contractors "towed" the cars (with what must have been Sherman tanks) and imposed fines on the owners. I managed to get them out...narrowly avoiding punitive actions myself. I'm certain some of my peers will disagree with me here, but there seems to be an ever-shrinking "tool box" leaders can use to address issues...particular when they don't involve the service members direct duties. When I returned from Afghanistan, an admin SNAFU with the State of Tennessee resulted in my license being suspended...only took a few calls to rectify, but it does give me pause when considering if an Article 15 (or any other formal punitive actions) was the correct response.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Sep 30 at 2015 9:30 PM

PFC Donnie Harold Harris — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:30:05 -0400

To Much.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Dec 21 at 2015 9:14 AM

COL Charles Williams — Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:14:42 -0500

UCMJ is allowed, and you accepted it. All UCMJ is based on matters or extenuation and mitigation as well. Based on what you said above, UCMJ would never have happened in my units.

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made Dec 22 at 2015 3:13 PM

MSG Gerry Poe — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:13:12 -0500

Well SPC Pietrantonio you are going to serve under many different leaders and leadership styles. Some will crack-the-whip and some will be a little more lenient. Now you know that you must be on your game or you may find yourself in trouble a lot! Now I would have taken a different route on this issue, but the problem was solved and lessons learned. Not just keep your head up and stay positive! Good luck.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 9:20 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:20:03 -0500

Did you appeal to the next higher commander? It sounds like something else is involved here besides a lapsed insurance policy.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Jan 12 at 2016 9:24 AM

PFC Donnie Harold Harris — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 09:24:02 -0500

Unacceptable treatment.

Response by MSgt Tim Craig made Jan 14 at 2016 5:24 PM

MSgt Tim Craig — Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:24:49 -0500

How did they find out that it was cancelled before you...sounds like overreach.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 4:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 16:32:49 -0500

There is no law stating you have to have insurance to own a car. Now you have to have insurance to drive it. I would have went to JAG and they would have had a field day with your commander on that one. Back when I was a SPC I was a passenger in a car. We were stationed in Germany and apparently the driver was in a rented car but did not have a German drivers permit, and I did. Well he got pulled over for speeding, and we both got taken to the MP station. My command tried to give me a summarized article 15 for allowing a unlicensed driver drive a car (that he rented somehow). I took it to JAG and I was told because it was summarized they could not do anything for me. However, if I requested trial by courts marshal they would make a laughing stock out of the command. They also told me that if I requested the courts martial chances are it would get dropped. So, I took the gamble and requested the trial, needless to say I never saw paperwork or a court.

I would take the case to JAG after the fact and open up an ICE complaint.

Response by SGT Theodore Cossitt made Aug 4 at 2016 9:52 PM

SGT Theodore Cossitt — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 21:52:41 -0400

Under the circumstances you claim, I think an A15 was a little overboard. Perhaps you caught the person who gave it to you on a bad day. My questions would be, 1. Was your current contact information (phone number, address) up to date with the insurance company so they could contact you? 2. What did they drop you for? Was it an accident, failure to pay, what?

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 27 at 2016 12:18 AM

SFC George Smith — Sun, 27 Nov 2016 00:18:17 -0500

interesting... that used to be considered a civil matter not a military matter ... you were not allowed to bring the vehicle on post

Response by COL Jeff Williams made Dec 2 at 2016 2:40 AM

COL Jeff Williams — Fri, 02 Dec 2016 02:40:38 -0500

What was the offense cited on the Article 15? Failure to have car insurance?

Response by SGT Jerry Parks made Dec 8 at 2018 6:33 PM

SGT Jerry Parks — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 18:33:19 -0500

If this came from your company Commander I don't think he use UMCJ liked it was intended for

Response by SrA A.A. Hall made Jan 12 at 2019 8:21 PM

SrA A.A. Hall — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 20:21:26 -0500

No I don't feel it was appropriate, but it may depend on why your insurance dropped you, the area you are in, (state, county), and if you were deployed at the time or not. I had been gone on a deployment. Was returned to my base do to a family emergency. My POV had expired plates, inspection sticker, my insurance had expired, as well as my drivers license. When I was pulled over & told about all the issues I had let laps, I was given 24 hrs to rectify the situation. But do to the family emergency my Base Commander allowed me a week. If you were stationed stateside that might also be part of the issue. But if your previous insurance company didn't notify you of their intent to drop you, it might be worth your time & effort to get a JAG to help you have the Article 15 looked into.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jan 14 at 2019 2:14 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 14:14:40 -0500

Damn. At this point I am truly glad I was born in the '50's and not in, say, the '80's. Article 15 for not having car insurance? Why the fuck is the US Army even concerned with this? I do understand personal responsibility, and this sort of even bears on financial responsibility, not making the military look bad, and all that, but Article 15's are a federal conviction and stay with one for life, or so I remember being told.

Why, pray tell, is the US Army handing out convictions for federal crimes on what is essentially a matter of state law? IE, there is no federal law that says one must have car insurance, these are all state laws. Why is the Army enforcing state law?

I realize the actual Art 15 might have been for refusal to obey, but the core question remains, why is the Army enforcing state law with federal charges ? Was there an installation commander that just decided to do this, or is it Army wide?

Yeah, it's bullshit. I saw that on first reading and I agree with the comments below about BS. But, my question remains, why?

Response by SFC Cynthia Eyer made Apr 13 at 2019 9:31 AM

SFC Cynthia Eyer — Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:31:07 -0400

I would say there is more to this case than we are being told. Unless you allowed your auto insurance to expire from non-payment, the only other reasons an insurance company drops a insured is due to tickets, non-payment, etc.—something derogatory. Not knowing the extenuating circumstances of your case and your relationship with current command, I couldn’t make an honest, valid decision.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 10 at 2019 7:53 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Fri, 10 May 2019 19:53:42 -0400

Up to you to now when it expires. I would say a verbal would have sufficed. I received s article 15 in 1968 for going 11 km over the speed limit. Received a verbal repremand.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Jun 9 at 2019 10:07 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 22:07:12 -0400

Your leaders acted a bit hastily and irrationally if this was truly the case. I suspect your leaders are too young and inexperienced to know that insurance companies do this sort of thing quite often. In-fact, the insurance company should have properly noticed you in a timely manner. You did nothing wrong here, and furthermore I would hope that your leaders educate themselves on something called - Due Process. As citizens we are afforded rights under the Constitution, and as Soldiers we take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution - so in this instance, your leaders denied you your right to Due Process and judged you without all evidence being present and then sentenced you without consideration of the evidence or the fact that you were able to comply with unit regualtions and state statutory requirments within the same day as soon as you discovered your insurance company had dropped you as a client. In law enforcement and in judicial proceedings, defendants are normally granted a pass if they prove they are in compliance with the law after a minor infraction. It seems as if I have gone through great length to provide an aswer here, but I do so wondering the capability of your leaders to lead effectively - especially in a combat situation, because if they overreact to something as minor as this and judge so harshly without weighing the evidence or giving you - a valued member of their team the benefit of the doubt, then what will happen to other Soldiers who are wrongly accused of something and who are within their control... will they be judged and punished before all the evidence can be collected, measured, and weighed or before any explanations can be offered to support their innocence? These are not the kind of leaders in the next generation that I want leading our Army as they do not appear to be concerned about taking care of troops, but rather acting like Cadets who just gained authority to issue out demerits for the first time! I would have helped you figure out what happened, advised you to get a new insurance company and then I would have referred you to JAG to have them draft a complaint against this insurance company - and then I would have worked with JAG to determine if this particular insurance company was engaged in fraud against our troops - which may likely be a larger problem for Army leaders to consider as bad insurance companies like this one can cause problems for our troops and their family members in which they may be working as a criminal enterprise staging accidents against troops amd family members who believe they are covered by insurance, but im reality - as in your case - are not truly covered at all. Best of luck to you and have faith in knowing that not all leaders in the Army are like the ones you have now... there are actually some good leaders who care about their troops and I hope that the lesson from this experience helps you to become a good leader someday.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Jul 7 at 2019 2:06 PM

MSgt Eric Roseberry — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 14:06:55 -0400

POV Inspection? Is that a thing?

Response by LCpl Michael Harrell made Jul 11 at 2019 8:44 PM

LCpl Michael Harrell — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:44:58 -0400

Look at it like this, you know you have to have all your crap wired tight in the service, it falls on you to know everything! If your late on a credit card bill you can be given an article 15 for failing to maintain financial responsibilities, no different. Now if you were truly were dropped without prior notice( it happens) you need that proof, in the insurance company’s letterhead, and can present that to the reviewing officer and see what happens. It builds well you had it fixed ASAP, and good on ya! But if you had an accident while it had lapsed, you open yourself and the command up for legal issues. Think if that had happened on base, you’d be looking at a Dereliction of duty charge and few others. Harsh? Maybe.

Response by LTC Warren Miller made Aug 10 at 2019 5:25 PM

LTC Warren Miller — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:25:33 -0400

No, if this is as you say, I think you got off with a light slap on the wrist. Losing rank and pay would have been worse. And had you been pulled over by law enforcement, the fines and inconveniences likely would have been greater. Chalk it up as a lesson learned but use this to help others do it the right way.

Response by A1C Stanley Kolakowski made Nov 6 at 2020 3:08 PM

A1C Stanley Kolakowski — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 15:08:47 -0500

Last I knew, auto insurance companies love good drivers that pay their bills on time - and hate everyone else.

The only reason I've ever heard a good driver "lose" their insurance would be clerical error - which upon notification the insurance company would immediately fix by "reinstatement" and would also be willing to admit to said clerical error to your CoC.

Now, if you're a "bad" driver, whether your "badness" stems from late payments or a pattern (ie, 2) tickets or accidents, then insurance companies tend to drop you because your notification was either contained within the original policy (the one that says they don't like you getting tickets or claims against you) and the other reason's notification is contained within the notice that says "pay by this date or else".

Response by MSgt Ed Larson made Feb 14 at 2021 12:02 AM

MSgt Ed Larson — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 00:02:21 -0500

Geesh you kArmy guys love Article 15's. i my opinion the most this would be is a letter of counseling.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made May 4 at 2021 10:33 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Tue, 04 May 2021 10:33:52 -0400

Seems this isn't the whole story nut only one question - Why did you sign it?