Do you call failing for what it is in your unit? Is this happening?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 05:40:38 -0500

In my experience I have seen occur over and over again. What boggles my mind is how failure is met with a sense of inclusion. I know we don't want to disrespect any soldiers but it would be a greater disservice to accept failure without an retribution. I can't recall how many times I have heard "but he is a good field soldier." That is great but if he is disrespectful to NCOs in garrison he is not a good soldier. It doesn't matter if he can hump a M240 with 1,000 rounds all by himself for 12 miles. He will damage the command climate in a unit. If you let him know he is failing in this area he may correct himself and become the well rounded soldier he should be. If he doesn't comply he should be dealt with accordingly.

In addition to this I have heard people say "There is no such thing as a stupid question" but I have seen otherwise. If it is a legitimate question I don't have an issue with it. But if you were to ask me "How do you think the Earth rotates around the Sun? The Earth is in the center and sun is the one that rotates around us!" I wouldn't even waste me time. It is foolish to even try to explain. There are also inflammatory comments out there that are stupid. I am not contesting that they shouldn't be said. After all they have freedom of speech and have the right to be stupid but when you have people, the Westboro Baptist Church, out there I don't care to try to understand why you are saying this. It is worthless and offers no intellectual benefit to me or to anyone really.

I really don't understand why we try to avoid not calling it what it is. It is not a popular stance to tell someone that they failed or make no sense when they feel so vehemently about it. If you fail you should take you licks and move on. We have to be firm with our conviction. If I failed my comrades I would feel horrible. That is what is supposed to happen. If you can't tell them the truth because you are afraid of hurting their feelings you are in the wrong line of work. I want someone to tell me I failed. I don't want a hug. If one accepts failure and doesn't really see it as an issue I would really question their effort. After all the Soldier's Creed states "I will never accept defeat. I will never quit." But just trying once and walking away with "well that was good enough" is exactly not that.

How do you deal with this in your unit or have you seen this adversely affect your unit and command climate. Have you see a soldier get a pass for something that you have see another get an Article 15 elsewhere?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2015 6:00 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 06:00:15 -0500

Failure is an option and in training it is good. You learn more from failing something than always passing. I am not saying that I want to fail or I want Soldiers that want to fail. I only want to win, plain and simple. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and with those times you find out what you need to win.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, not everyone was raised the same way with the same educational background. I know they should know what is right and wrong, or that the sun is the center of the universe, but sometimes you just have to understand that some people learn at a different pace.

I think you are right that we need to tell everyone the truth, and be brutally honest about, when necessary. This goes into keeping the right people in the service. I am all for retention numbers, but I would rather fail to meet a mission than re-enlist an idiot that I don't want with me in combat.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Feb 21 at 2015 12:35 PM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:35:53 -0500

Well said, and eloquently expressed!

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 21 at 2015 12:49 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 12:49:26 -0500

Failure is not an option, but when it happens it should be addressed appropriately. How it is addressed really depends on the type of failure and the level of failure. An individual failing weapons qual vs a unit failing a major inspection should not be handled the same way.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 21 at 2015 1:45 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 13:45:59 -0500

Failure is always an option... And sometimes it's the best learning tool available. Some people learn SOLELY when they fall flat on their face.

http://timkastelle.org/blog/2013/12/failure-always-option/

Failure is Always an Option

We all want to avoid big, expensive failures. The best way to do this is to design many small, cheap failures - experiments!

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Feb 21 at 2015 7:32 PM

SPC David Shaffer — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 19:32:05 -0500

Sir, it's not the failure that is the problem in most cases. Sometimes it's hard, but it takes a leader that will continue to treat them like a person, and show them the right way. Some of the greatest success stories are from the worst failures. Some people just take extra guidance...a lot of extra guidance.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 7:32 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 07:32:25 -0500

Do you advocate that we go back to the "zero-defect" Army that we had in the mid-1990's?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 7:48 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 07:48:14 -0500

I want to say I deal with stupidity on a daily basis running my shift but I would be lying. My sailors these days suffer from a lack of common sense, foresight and the ability to retain knowledge, in my eyes I call it pretty stupid but when they ask a question that I consider "stupid" (I.E. Which way do I turn the screw to put it in? No joke that happened to me.) the best we can can do is deliver the answer to them as for the ones who know more than the rest or can hump a M240 with 1,000 rounds should still show millitary bearing and true faith. My best guys that I have on my shift are shown no favoritism or breaks, the most that they see from me is my trust in them to do the job (Aviation Electronic Systems) without failure.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 8:05 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:05:58 -0500

I think that every officer and NCO should address another Soldier's failure with respect and professionalism. However, it must be addressed. I've not seen too much complacency in my unit or units. Deficiencies have usually been brought up to the Soldier and failure to comply has been annotated on evaluations.

I think that I understand your intent, but I agree with LTC Private RallyPoint Member's sentiment: do we want to go to a zero-defect mentality? That creates a very toxic command climate, one where people back stab rather than work together. One where everyone is afraid that the smallest mistake could be a career killer. It leads to careerists par excellence.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 8:28 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:28:16 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, failure is a part of life, and an inherent part of training. It will happen. When it does, it is usually an excellent opportunity to learn.
I don't think failing is the problem. I think what we do next is. When a Soldier fails AND gives up trying, then I have a problem. That Soldier needs to know that failing doesn't make them a bad troop, but quitting does.
As a leader, it's corollary is accepting failure as what is expected or "good enough". Failure is never good enough. Failure means jeopardizing the team. It means potentially compromising the mission. Neither are acceptable.

So, young Soldier -
If you can't shoot, do your dime and washer drills and get back on the firing line.
If you are fat, eat less and exercise more.
If you fail an APFT, hit the gym.
If you no go a task, get out the SMCT manual, find a Sergeant, and practice until you master the skill.
If you screw up in life, own the mistake and strive to not make it again.

As a leader, I respect a Soldier who does the above far more than the one that succeeds on natural talent.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 22 at 2015 8:39 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:39:54 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member I though Ft. Bragg was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it....LOL

I totally understand where you are coming from and yes failure to correct an issue within your control as a leader is unacceptable. What I mean is your example of disrespect is something you as the leader can fix.

I slightly disagree about the stupid question because to the one asking it may not be stupid and unless it is off the reservation answer them or ask them what they think making a training or mentoring session. I know you were once a private and probably asked some boneheaded questions and probably got smoked for them I know I did.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 8:47 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:47:59 -0500

Paraphrasing Lawrence J. Peter... there is a spectrum of failure.

On one end, the stakes are low, and failure becomes a method of learning.
On the other end, the stakes are high, and failure means people die.

Being so afraid of failure that you are unwilling to take chances kills initiative, audacity, and the ability to grow and learn. Being so blindly confident that you don't do a proper risk assessment in your head (or on paper) about the reality of your situation costs lives.

Failure can be a powerful learning tool or a existential threat.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Feb 22 at 2015 10:33 AM

SFC Collin McMillion — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:33:20 -0500

What ever happened to "if at first you don't seceed, try and try again"? Failure is not the option, if temporary failure is a learning experience in order to seceed you are one ahead of the game, because you learn both sides of the fence. Quiting is true failure.