Do you believe that, in order to be an effective officer, you must go through the enlisted ranks and then OCS or CWOCS?

James Adair — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:32:24 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 2:42 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:42:00 -0400

If so we will have 55 year old Lts who come our of OCS and retire at O2 or 03 when they turn 60 if what you are saying? To make a 4 star you would be about 85.That reminds me of that old Officer on that old comedy 'Soap' that was on in the late 70s. LOL

Response by Maj John Bell made Oct 12 at 2016 2:54 AM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:54:42 -0400

Having enlisted experience helps, but it does not guarantee a good officer. Not having enlisted experience does not preclude being a good officer. I believe the character and discipline you show up with is a better indicator.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 12 at 2016 2:55 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 02:55:48 -0400

The experience never hurts but then again as Officers gain experience then like anyone else that should increase their effectiveness. I present as evidence many of the fine Officers I have worked with and served under the Command of who did an outstanding job. Also with time in grade requirements etc. You would have some pretty old Officers. Grades as advanced as E8, only 2% of the total force can even hold that rank and only 1% of the force for E9. I don't even consider that a practical idea and the purpose of ROTC, service academies or other Officer training is to prepare Officers for Command.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Oct 12 at 2016 5:49 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 05:49:34 -0400

As an aside read recently of a Marine who retired as an O6, who had also held the ranks of SgtMaj (E9), and CWO (O5). Hard to believe while knowing that either rank is normally the culmination of an entire career for anyone..

Response by PO3 David Fries made Oct 12 at 2016 5:56 AM

PO3 David Fries — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 05:56:05 -0400

Nope. You can be a horrible enlisted person, go to OCS and still be a horrible officer.

Response by CPT Andrew Wright made Oct 12 at 2016 7:02 AM

CPT Andrew Wright — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 07:02:56 -0400

No. If you waited through E9 you would be too old! E5 might be more realistic.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 12 at 2016 8:34 AM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:34:47 -0400

Mustangs are just as capable of screwing the pooch as ROTCs & Ring Knockers.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 8:49 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:49:34 -0400

I've seen good from bad. Bad from good. Good to good, and bad to bad. It all depends on the character of the individual.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 9:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:16:54 -0400

it certainly makes a difference in performance and overall leadership

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Oct 12 at 2016 9:39 AM

LTC Stephen C. — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 09:39:01 -0400

This question has been asked many times on this forum, James Adair, and the answer is no. There are many paths to becoming an officer, and every path produces its share of good and bad officers.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 12 at 2016 10:09 AM

SFC George Smith — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:09:31 -0400

its not a bad idea But I have known Many really good officers who were "collage Boys " and went on to be most effective officers... unfortunately I have known and seen many more who were Just short of Useless... I've seen many Kids who made it to E5-E6 and went to Collage or OCS and got commissions... and went on to make fantastic Field-grade Officers... the professional Fields especially medical officers and legal beagles do really well straight out of School... the WOCs do need to learn the primary Fields before the are Pinned...

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Oct 12 at 2016 10:11 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:11:04 -0400

Mustangs are a small percentage of the O Corps and smaller yet as senior officers. So the performance thing appears to be a wash given age caps. I did feel alone being on page 1 of our lineal list. The 'Nam hardware was about ready to get me cast into the Museum Category.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 10:17 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 10:17:49 -0400

There are plenty of good and bad leaders in enlisted and officer ranks. I don't think being prior enlisted would make anyone a good leader however it may give a good leader a different perspective on things.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Oct 12 at 2016 1:23 PM

SFC Joseph Weber — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:23:12 -0400

No. Plenty of very effective officers. Probably the same percentage of effective NCOs.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Oct 12 at 2016 2:02 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:02:06 -0400

Not necessarily, to be an effective officer, you need to know your troops. You need to know their jobs and responsibilities. How can you effectively judge if someone is pulling their weight in the mission at hand if you don't actively know what their responsibilities are.

I remember when I was a Junior Marine, my OIC would kick my work back all the time unless I could justify why I did things the way I did. So I would open the reference, make a copy of it, highlight the appropriate passages, and put the work right back on his desk.

I couldn't tell you if he did it because he had no idea what he was looking at, or if he did it to keep me honest and make sure I knew what I was doing. Either way, it made me one of the best at my MOS because I always verified my references before I ever put something on his desk. Because of that, less and less work got kicked back because he eventually saw me as an authority on the matter.

Sure, it's beneficial to go through the enlisted ranks first before pinning on the shinies. It'll give them a firsthand experience on what enlisted go through and how you can tell the difference between a good leader and a bad. But I don't think it exclusively will make you an effective officer.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Oct 12 at 2016 2:19 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:19:53 -0400

Nope, I don't believe this at all.

Response by CPT Nicholas D. made Oct 12 at 2016 2:46 PM

CPT Nicholas D. — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:46:35 -0400

I guess it depends what we define as an "effective officer." I just had a similar conversation with a comrade about our children joining the military and what advice we would give them. My Two Cents: If my child was seeking a commission to be a leader of combat arms troops (Infantry, Armor, Cav, SOF, etc)... I would strongly encourage enlisted service in the desired branch to gain an appreciation for the direct impact of leadership decisions on the organization. If they wanted to be Aviation, I would strongly encourage becoming a Warrant Officer first. Make Pilot in Command, get a Track, knock out 1000 hours, and then take a commission where your experience will validate your contribution. The "technical experience" would certainly be invaluable, but in the 17 years I have worn this uniform, the "School of What Not to Do" is a constant reminder for a former CW3 and SSG wearing these gold bars. My time enlisted and as a technical officer have very much influenced the way I do business currently as a Commander.

I don't think it takes 10+years of enlisted experience to be an effective Officer. I think everyone on the board can point to an ROTC Cadet, a West Pointer, an OCS Grad, or Direct Appointment that either exceeded or fell far short of expectations of an officer. Your character, work ethic, and attributes will be much heavier influence on your effectiveness than your ribbon rack. With that said, I do encourage people to not be in a rush for pay grade status and salutes outside the PX if they want to take the time to broaden their perspective to be a more effective leader. Leadership is different than just saying "officer." Of course we strive for all our officers to be leaders, and those in Staff positions are in "leadership." But I cannot discount the perspective gained through Followership on the prospective leader. Some officers are gifted and natural leaders. Some should never have been considered for commissions. But I think the "constant" of modern leadership education doesn't prove the "null" when you look at the "variable" you get with each and every different officer you'll meet throughout a career.

Require prior service? Eh, not necessarily. Encourage... absolutely!

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Oct 12 at 2016 3:33 PM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:33:03 -0400

No. Our most effective officers come from all commissioning sources.

Response by Sgt Eric Proskey made Oct 12 at 2016 6:14 PM

Sgt Eric Proskey — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:14:15 -0400

I believe that, an enlisted moving to officer, provides an added reality to Their ranks. You dont need to be a grunt to be a great officer while some officers are nothing more than book smart and completely ineffective as leaders.

Response by LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr made Oct 13 at 2016 12:25 AM

LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:25:02 -0400

I started my career as an enlisted man and spent 5 and 1/2 years on active duty before getting out and going to college and ROTC to earn a commission as an Engineer Officer in the US Army. That being said I agree that being prior enlisted does not guarantee an individual with prior enlisted service will be a successful commissioned officer. Success in the commissioned ranks depends on the character, training, and temperament of the officer. Listen to your inner voice and to the Senior Enlisted personnel leadership in the chain of command. I retired as a LTC and I still remember my first Platoon Sergeant - SFC Eugene Farmer.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2016 1:09 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 01:09:36 -0400

Having experienced the enlisted side of things helps with being an officer. After we all started out enlisted. But to be an effective leader I don't think it is the most important thing that makes an officer a great leader or able to lead effectively.

Response by TSgt Lars Eilenfeld made Oct 13 at 2016 3:03 PM

TSgt Lars Eilenfeld — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 15:03:38 -0400

Yes

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2016 5:40 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:40:08 -0400

Not at all. I have seen great officers that have come out of ROTC and the Academy. Some of my peers that came out of OCS actually had a harder time adjusting because they still tried to maintain the role of the "NCO", much to the dismay of their actual NCOs.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Oct 14 at 2016 6:26 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Fri, 14 Oct 2016 06:26:53 -0400

Nope. Being prior service is good experience but it doesn't make you a better leader. Training, personal values and smarts all matter. How you employ them in the job is the measure.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2016 6:08 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Oct 2016 18:08:35 -0400

I've seen too many O's with zero E-time that were excellent Officers, and too many O's with several years of E-time that had a HUGE chip on their shoulders or were useless as Leaders. Though I think it _CAN_ help many of them, I don't think it's mandatory to do so.

Response by MSgt Jeff Greene made Oct 18 at 2016 7:44 AM

MSgt Jeff Greene — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:44:09 -0400

I agree with Maj Bell. I've served with both and got the same reactions. Some prior enlisted look down on current enlisted with the attitude "I did it so why didn't you". Others remember what it was like to be enlisted and treat their people with the respect they deserve. Sometimes the ring-knockers are the toughest. Upon graduation from the service academy they think they are extra special and know everything.

Response by CPO Miguel LaraMaya made Oct 18 at 2016 7:50 AM

CPO Miguel LaraMaya — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:50:58 -0400

It all depends on the individual and the career they seek.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Oct 18 at 2016 7:51 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:51:26 -0400

Not necessarily, but I did have a couple of Commanders that started at the bottom and worked up to being an officer.

Response by MGySgt Gerry Sweeten made Oct 18 at 2016 8:47 AM

MGySgt Gerry Sweeten — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:47:17 -0400

I don't believe having been prior enlisted or graduated from OCS or a military college makes one a good officer. Care for his/her troops, standing up for what is right, good moral character are what makes a good officer. However, for an ensign, lieutenant to develop into a good capt, lcol, and above, guidance for good higher enlisted is a must.

Response by LTJG Don Biscoe made Oct 18 at 2016 8:53 AM

LTJG Don Biscoe — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 08:53:55 -0400

NO! Our Academies and OCS are among the finest learning institutions in the world and have the potential to train excellent officers appointed over their charges. They are trained to not only do a specific job - engineer, logistics, law, medicine, pilot to name a few but, like the young NCO, trained to lead personnel. In many ways, their training is much superior within the enlisted ranks - in addition to Academy/ OCS orientation, most are working closely with a senior NCO who should understand one of his obligations is to help the Bull Ensign (or other junior officers - LOL) grow in his/ her leadership capabilities.

However, if you select an arrogant man/ woman - in other words look mostly on grades and athletic achievements - you are bound to spawn an elitist mentality. I once flew a two-star Admiral from NAS Washington to Charleston SC. He brought his steward, china and a 5-course meal - of which he never offered a crumb to the three-man crew on the C-12. On the obverse, I flew many senior officers who were gracious, thoughtful, and fine human beings - men I would consider friendships with. I saw the same arrogance in the enlisted ranks among a few CPO's and First Class's. Our Officers are not placed above us to become friends, but rather as administrators with authority to enforce the policies, rules, and traditions necessary to perform the mission.

Response by 1SG Ronald Perry made Oct 18 at 2016 9:13 AM

1SG Ronald Perry — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:13:22 -0400

No as a retired Army First Sergeant it has been my experience that the majority of those who were enlisted have a hard time distinguishing between enlisted and officers business. They think they know what an NCOs job is. I have had a few that were good but most are bad.

Response by PO1 William Wingate made Oct 18 at 2016 9:20 AM

PO1 William Wingate — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:20:43 -0400

As a Hospital Corpsman assigned to the Marines I noticed the difference between officers who were commissioned right out of college. Versus those who had prior enlisted service. One in particular was a Marine Capt by the name of Jack Ray. Capt Ray had been a Sgt during Vietnam who got his degree in Law Enforcement. This is one Officer who earned the respect of his enlisted Marines by virtue of having walked in their shoes, he had the knack of knowing what they were going through in their daily lives and was able to anticipate possible problems with his Marines before they occured. He was the Epitome of a Marines Marine. He earned the respect of his subordinates on a daily basis for that reason. His Marines and hus Corpsman were treated with respect and dignity. An example was after an ardous training cycle he came into my office where he found me with my feet up on my desk and asked the obvious question "What's up Doc" When i informed him that my required work was complete, and answered "Nothing Sir" he tossed me a duty pager and told me to Go do nothing elsewhere" His stature as a caring Commander went even higher. Of all the Marines I served with Capt Ray was my top choice for a commander. This is one Marine that I would have been proud to Lead through the Fates of Hell had the need arisen. So yes a former enlisted man who became an officer would be my choice for a commanding officer.

Response by Sgt Douglas O'Neal made Oct 18 at 2016 9:21 AM

Sgt Douglas O'Neal — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:21:53 -0400

An effective leader is an effective leader. To quote Gen. Pershing, " A competent leader can get effective service from poor troops, while on the contrary an incapable leader can demoralize the best of troops."
Being prior enlisted might give some insight into the people working for you and thier issues, it won't help you lead any better.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 9:24 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:24:36 -0400

During my career I've had the pleasure of working with some great officers who were never enlisted. Being previous enlisted may help in certain situations but if he or she has a good strong NCO beside them there should be no issues with leading.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 9:39 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:39:53 -0400

I believe someone can be an effective officer without having been prior enlisted. That said Mustang's do bring an extra breadth of experience to the table.

Response by CMSgt Bill Hamilton made Oct 18 at 2016 10:12 AM

CMSgt Bill Hamilton — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:12:39 -0400

Some of the finest officers I ever served under were Academy, ROTC, or OTS grads. Some of the worst were prior enlisted. I can also say it was also the opposite of the above too. It's true that prior enlisted service can bring that experience to the table but in terms of true leadership, either you got it or you don't. There is no magic bullet, it's the person themselves and successful ones will always be that way in anything they do in life.

Response by SGT Arno Paul Schumann made Oct 18 at 2016 10:13 AM

SGT Arno Paul Schumann — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:13:29 -0400

Ditto to what major Bell said.

Response by SMSgt Gary Yonchak made Oct 18 at 2016 11:09 AM

SMSgt Gary Yonchak — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:09:08 -0400

In a word, no. HOWEVER, The enlisted experience and training is always of value, but if you are/were a solid, good, and skilled NCO, then those attributes will carry over. With that being said, I have seen and worked for O's that were prior enlisted, and who were the worst and most detestable people ever to walk the earth. Don't know what happened to them, but their rank inflated their ego, their mindset, and all their "people skills". And, I have worked for "ring-knockers" and ROTC-grads, who did their darnest to work with and for the troops they lead. My thoughts tend to go with SOME of the folks with prior NCO skills, if for no other reason than you better understand the "why's".

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 11:13 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:13:16 -0400

No. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a detriment. An officer's 'job' is to BE an OFFICER! He or she is not there to 'empathize' or 'understand' or 'feel' the pain of the enlisted and NCO's in their charge. The flip side is just as bad: to look down their nose with contempt at those in their charge because 'they' believe they are 'better' than the rest of us 'cause they became Officers! A 'good' Officer is there to COMMAND and assume and accept responsibility.

Response by SGT Allen Potter made Oct 18 at 2016 12:01 PM

SGT Allen Potter — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:01:45 -0400

I had an officer that had been an NCO. I guess he wasn't much of an NCO because he assumed the NCOs in his platoon were trying to avoid responsibilities because as he put it."he knew all the ways to do it".

Response by CMSgt Tirso Medina Perello made Oct 18 at 2016 12:38 PM

CMSgt Tirso Medina Perello — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:38:04 -0400

No necessarily. The junior officer just needs to listen, ask question, and trust the senior enlisted. Even if he does, is not gurantee he will be a good officer. Mutual trust is a must, because the mission, trumps everything else!

Response by CMDCM Kermit Cain made Oct 18 at 2016 1:34 PM

CMDCM Kermit Cain — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 13:34:19 -0400

31+ years USN (Retired as CMC (E-9)). I would say that the best and the worst were prior enlisted followed soon thereafter with the best and worst being from the academy. As with most of the previous posts I've read here it's more of an attitude of the experiences than the experiences. The WORST officer I ever worked for was a "quota" officer, African-American female that had no business being in the service, let alone as a commissioned officer (straight commission). So incompetent that she wasn't aware since she didn't have the competence to know she was a train wreck. Second place went to a prior PO2 who did the OCS route who apparently thought that being commissioned now made him better than enlisted and he was demeaning and condescending to all lower ranking personnel (up to MCPO). He washed out at the O-3 (low marks in leadership) level but his prior enlisted years allowed him to retire. It's the mettle of the man more than anything else.

Response by SCPO Frank Carson made Oct 18 at 2016 3:42 PM

SCPO Frank Carson — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 15:42:04 -0400

No, That is why we have Chiefs in the Navy. To train new officers. BTW, officers in OCS and ROTC are technically E-5s

Response by SCPO Frank Carson made Oct 18 at 2016 3:42 PM

SCPO Frank Carson — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 15:42:53 -0400

Warrant Officers are technically enlisted people (Take a look at the personnel manual)

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Oct 18 at 2016 4:04 PM

SSG Ken Gilder — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:04:35 -0400

No. Leadership is an acquired skill, and must be learned. It can be learned through enlisted service, then OCS or WOCS, or through attendance at a service academy or ROTC. Enlisted service helps, but is not a necessity.

I've known some fine officers that never spent a day as an enlisted soldiers, for whom I would have charged the gates of hell with a bucket of water if they had asked. There are others, who did spend time as enlisteds, for whom I would shed no tears if they walked out in the morning to get their paper, and got run over by a bus.

I also have known both officer and enlisted, who were incredibly "book smart," but had all the common sense of a crate of anvils.

Response by PO1 Donald Vinson made Oct 18 at 2016 4:36 PM

PO1 Donald Vinson — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:36:05 -0400

I completely disagree, don't get me wrong there are a few of enlisted that has crossed over to the officer side and has become outstanding leaders, but as most have said it depends on who the person was as an enlisted individual.

Response by SSG Nat Dillenback made Oct 18 at 2016 4:59 PM

SSG Nat Dillenback — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:59:45 -0400

Nope. I knew plenty of effective officers. I knew plenty of ineffective enlisted. Training, commitment to the mission and the men, and a little common sense goes a long way. They have a different job than the enlisted. It's almost apples and oranges to compare them.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Oct 18 at 2016 9:10 PM

SGT Eric Knutson — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:10:24 -0400

Like others have said, the persons character makes the difference, that said, I had 2 different officers that come to mind, both from WP, one went because daddy got the MH in Vietnam, he was a wild card but got things done in Desert Storm, and LEAD from the front without feeling or acting weak when he did not know something. The other was prior EM (E-4) and got an appt at WP, the problem with him was that he came from trans and went to the 101st as an INF LT, but because he "knew" everything, the Plt suffered until he tried locking the 1st Sgt up during a field problem, never saw him again after that one.

Response by PO1 Ken Cranston made Oct 18 at 2016 10:01 PM

PO1 Ken Cranston — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:01:49 -0400

it' the character of the man and those that lead him that make the difference.

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made Oct 18 at 2016 10:03 PM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:03:22 -0400

I think it depends on the person. If they're a they're bad with chevrons than they'll be worse with brass.

Response by MCPO Dennis Didier made Oct 18 at 2016 10:13 PM

MCPO Dennis Didier — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:13:23 -0400

What makes a good officer? I always thought it was "know your stuff, be a man (I know, be an adult), and take care of your people. In my 31 years I saw great officers who were academy grads, OCS, and mustangs. I also saw idiots who gave idiots a bad name. By and large, the vast majority were really good people, regardless of how they were commissioned. I always liked academy types because they went through their first summer cruise mess-cooking and doing all the junior enlisted stuff and I think that helped them understand what life at the lower ranks was like. It took longer to train an OCS type because they lacked any real practical experience, but if they listened to their officer mentors and their chiefs, they figured it out. Some mustangs suffered growing pains and had superiority complexes, but around LT time, most of them also figured it out. So what am I saying? It's really up to how the officer was raised, their values and their sense of humility and taking responsibility for their decisions. The worst officer I recall was a washed out student naval aviator assigned a target drone squadron in the early 60s. The best was an NROTC grad, captain serving as a commodore of a DesRon who made two star. I guess it's what you start with that determines if you'll be a good and successful officer.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Oct 18 at 2016 10:39 PM

SGT Tim Fridley — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 22:39:23 -0400

My opinion is as long as an officer listens and learns from his/her NCOs it does not matter if they are West Point , OCS or other they can be an effective officer

Response by SFC Bill York made Oct 18 at 2016 11:26 PM

SFC Bill York — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 23:26:20 -0400

NO!, But it would help!

Response by SSG Walter Corretjer made Oct 19 at 2016 3:55 AM

SSG Walter Corretjer — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 03:55:49 -0400

Warrant Officers are Technical Officers,that comes from the files,with the exemption of some pilots, that join the service directly from Basic Training.

Response by PO1 Lee Conway made Oct 19 at 2016 9:39 AM

PO1 Lee Conway — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:39:48 -0400

The officers i most respected when I served came up from the enlisted ranks, however there were a couple that really managed to screw the pooch that came up the same way as well. If you have raised a good and honorable child who will be a good and honorable man, they will do well as a leader of men.

Response by Sgt Paul Mason made Oct 19 at 2016 11:51 AM

Sgt Paul Mason — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:51:18 -0400

No....but......

It always helps to have done the work you're asking other to do.

Response by SSgt Vas Vasquez made Oct 19 at 2016 12:39 PM

SSgt Vas Vasquez — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:39:13 -0400

The REAL question should be what attributes serve to make you an EFFECTIVE Leader at all levels? OCS & CWOCS are but additional steps giving insight into leadership and communication through specialized training. No one is "born" a leader but some are more inclined to leadership roles than others by virtue of the social environment in which they were raised. A wild dog can be trained to be an obedient "service dog" for a blind person through training but it will take much longer than one that is already domesticated and has been taught a few simple commands early on from birth. Leaders are appointed by others to a certain role. The real test of leadership is determined by "who is willing" to follow them into the mouth of Hell...and look forward to the trip.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 13:09:16 -0400

I don't believe you have to, however I wish that was the way it was done. I feel choosing education over service to your country then being put in charge of folks that made the sacrifice intitally is a bad look. However that how it's been almost forever and no one is willing to try to change it.

I feel this way because, in my mind if you are already aware of the good and bad of both sides of the house, you might be more inclined to be a factor of change when you cross over. I know I would at least

Response by TSgt Keith Murcray made Oct 19 at 2016 3:31 PM

TSgt Keith Murcray — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:31:41 -0400

No. A really good effective officer will listen and learn from their NCO'S.

Response by SSgt Roberto Leandro made Oct 19 at 2016 4:43 PM

SSgt Roberto Leandro — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 16:43:16 -0400

I don't need to go through the ranks to be an effective officer. I do believe that officers that do come up through the enlisted ranks could have an advantage over thise who don't...but I have seen good officers who didn't come up through the ranks and bad ones who have. I believe it is more about leadership and people skills more than how you arrived at your rank.

Response by 1SG Ernie Von made Oct 19 at 2016 10:16 PM

1SG Ernie Von — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 22:16:58 -0400

Great question and spirited responses. As a retired senior NCO I would opine...I don't know. Commissioned and non-commissioned are complimentary yet very separate. I would not have changed places with any of the commissioned officers I served with. I respected and appreciated what they brought to the table (and the meetings they attended instead of me)...thus allowing me to do the fun stuff. Commissioned and Non-commissioned is a beautiful partnership and experience in one does not equal success in the other.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 5:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:00:47 -0400

I think you should go through enlisted basic training. ROTC, OCS, and West Point officers are missing out.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 6:18 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:18:10 -0400

I do not think that you MUST be prior enlisted to be an effective officer, but I feel that the prior enlisted experience definitely gives those officers a great resource, and possible a leg up on many of their peers during the first few years of their commission.

Response by SFC Carlos Gamino made Oct 20 at 2016 6:50 PM

SFC Carlos Gamino — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 18:50:23 -0400

If that person was horrible from the beginning of his military career (enlisted). Why would you even nomitate that SM to be an officer?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 9:57 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:57:48 -0400

This question begs another question; if the your answer's "Yes", then does that mean men like Eisenhower, Powell, etc. were ineffective?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 8:06 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:06:21 -0400

It has everything to do with type of person you are.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Oct 21 at 2016 11:45 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:45:41 -0400

I don't think it makes you a good officer, but I believe it helps. What makes you a good officer is joining at the hip from the very beginning to a seasoned SNCO that will take the time and energy to mold you into a good leader.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Oct 21 at 2016 3:32 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:32:37 -0400

We had a Captain that was formerly a staff Sergeant. The issue was that he could not stay out of NCO business, and he thought he knew everything. I was enlisted and was a Warrant Officer, I once saw the troops in a huddle, and walked up, asked the SSG what was going on, she said it was NCO business, Lesson Learned

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Oct 21 at 2016 3:36 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:36:07 -0400

I had a Captain who was a SSG and he could not distinguish between Officer and NCO responsibilities. Because he was enlisted, he would not listen to anyone, and he went out of his way to impress his superior officers by basically volunteering the troops for all the details. I was a WO1, I had a very strong SSG, I saw the troops in a "meeting" walked up and asked the SSG what was going on, She simply stated NCO business, Lesson Learned..

Response by SGT Mary G. made Oct 27 at 2016 3:15 PM

SGT Mary G. — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 15:15:01 -0400

No. But it provides good insight, and avoids some of the problems brand new, young officers who are new to a unit might experience IF they don't understanding the wisdom of being "trained" by their NCOs. ;)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2016 7:02 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Nov 2016 07:02:06 -0400

Mustang Reporting In. True answer is no as nearly everyone here says (people have a wide range of skills and behaviors regardless). ~but for my 2 cents I say it depends. Leadership is providing purpose, direction and motivation to get r' done. As a former enlisted the mustang already has a real taste of providing purpose, direction and motivation (or having those three things provided to them) where as ROTC provides kind of a laboratory in a safe zone to practice these skills. I guess I'm saying education vs experience? OCS also provides that 'education' safe zone to practice. So the Mustang gets both. Your mustang is also getting things you can say are -good- for leaders that is hard to quantify. For example a Staff Sergeant that has 8 years experience before going to OCS has literally more years on this planet than your fresh from ROTC new guy. If you believe that a Soldiers leadership skills get better over time (in general) then this favors the mustang.

On the flip side of all that, and practically, After leaving a line unit and working at BN and other headquarters elements Officers that can think critically and drive powerpoint/excel do fine. I haven't been asked if I were OCS or ROTC for a long long time now and I haven't asked any officers for a long time.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2020 4:35 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Nov 2020 04:35:23 -0500

I’m a prior enlisted officer. I like to think my prior experience is indirectly helping me in my current capacity. That being said, the best 2LT I ever worked for was straight out of ROTC and the worst was a prior SSG (who still wanted to be one).