Do you believe our current Basic combat training needs to be revamped?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:44:12 -0500

With all our experience as a military why is our current Basic Combat Training still not reflecting the needs of our military.  We have added some simple things like convoy operations, and IED recognition but the rifle ranges are basically the same as when i joined in 2002.  I am currently assigned to a Battalion that is changing the way we train a little at a time and the results are amazing.  simple changes to how we train the Soldiers in the classroom, and how we handle their learning have made some significant changes in the the trains knowledge and performance.  Unfortunately we are the only ones doing this and its a shame more units are not following our example.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 1:08 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:08:07 -0500

SFC Welch,

I was in Iraq in 2004-2005 and ask my peers this question upon returning from that deployment I was DA selected to Drill Sergeant School and went on to be a Drill Sergeant at Fort Leonard Wood. There were great changes to all training like you have mentioned but as a Combat Engineer (12B's) my soldiers never road in the vehicles during that period I was performing Drill Sergeant duties. Since Fort Leonard Wood is the home of the Engineer and Route Clearance is what the majority of 12B's do now I always fought to have those vehicles brought to us so these soldiers could see them before they hit MTOE Units.

Which never happened. I just hope now units pay attention to what we have learned from this 14 years at war to implement new ways to train as we fight.

Thanks for posting this.

V/R

1SG Haro

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 2:02 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:02:35 -0500

I think if we're really going to be adaptive to the current environment we should add simple things like KLE's, and providing security for them into some of the curriculum at OSUT. I've been surprised on both of my deployments how much more time we spent doing that as opposed to raids, ambushes, clearing bunkers, etc...

Response by CPL Jason Rehling made Jan 25 at 2014 2:48 PM

CPL Jason Rehling — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:48:02 -0500

My son just returned from basic at Ft Leonardwood after a summer for basic (He is a split op national guard soldier currently)

The thing that I found concerning about his experience was the fact that 20-25% of his class failed either BRM or the APFT (which I guess isn't even a full APFT anymore)

coupled with the large degree of freedom the trainees were allowed (they got privileges in basic that my company in 1992 didn't get until well into AIT)

Now I understand things change, and we had soldiers that we had to whip into shape or coach at BRM to bring them up to standards, but I our Drill's would have gone thermonuclear on us..... (and we would have earned it).

I am just at a loss for words, I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation. At least I hope. Anyone have any input on this?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 3:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:11:49 -0500

Can you say more about the changes your unit made?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 3:17 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:17:44 -0500

As a former Drill Sergeant and current First Sergeant I say absolutely! The Army is and always will be consistently changing and adapting to it's mission and the needs of our Army. Changing TSPs is often a lengthy and often frustrating function of TRADOC but as always when units recognize good training and the needs to adapt training to focus on the current operational environment TRADOC is more than willing to make TSP and POI changes. Reading your changes, which are great ones with the Army winding down operations in Afghanistan do you think we should continue to train convoy live fires and IED identification TTPs?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 4:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:16:17 -0500

Honestly, I think that BCT is too broad of a course. BCT should focus on the basic things that need to be accomplished to make you a functional soldier. Imagine if you were sent a soldier that was and expert marksman, 270+ PT and knew how to talk and function in a military environment( i.e saluting, basic D&C). Everything after that should be unit training. I am in aviation so room clearing, IEDs and convoys are absolute waste of time and energy for 90% of soldiers in that branch. I say strip out everything besides shooting, PT, customs and courtesies and D&C. Take the money saved and give it to the AIT units to conduct better job training.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 6:47 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:47:56 -0500

Go back to basics and I don't mean bayonets and boot shinning.  We are not training Rangers or Paratroopers here.  This is Basic Combat Training.  There are a million good idea's floating around here and I have to take those good ideas every 10 weeks and change our training plan and it is frustrating!! Why do Soldiers need to do range cards as a private?  Why do we teach NBC but then when we take them in gas chamber they keep there mask on?  Why do we teach Advanced Rifle Marksmanship to a 60 man Platoon with only 15 pairs of NVG's with 15 sets of optics.  Why do we continue to throw hand grenades?  What are the real chances of a 42A even being issued a hand grenade.  Who can honestly put a pro mask on in 9 seconds.  Those are just some things to think about.  If you want that old school physically fit soldier who is disciplined and ready to train then take all this extra crap out and go back to letting the Drill Sergeant be the Drill Sergeant.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 25 at 2014 8:21 PM

SPC Christopher Smith — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:21:54 -0500

I find this question a bit funny, if we look back at WWI, and WWII you were basically pushed through basic with very basic shooting skills, and some physical fitness and thrown to war. Did we not win? Then again back then there weren't as many rules and beating the standing nail worked much better than paper and pen.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 1:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:05:08 -0500

Having been a DS recently, Basic is wayyyy to easy. PVT's tell the COC that a DS is picking on them (AKA making corrections) and the COC tells the DS to leave the PVT alone. What I think needs to be taken out is that stupid ARM training. Why are we wasting time and money on ARM, when a PVT can barely qualify with their weapon. Take out ARM, leave that for their unit, and extend BRM.

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Jan 26 at 2014 1:06 AM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:06:24 -0500

Use your post CSMs open door policy, he was a Drill Sergeant see where he stands.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 10:45 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 10:45:37 -0500

I went to Fort Benning for BCT (2007). We had several felony-waiver guys in my platoon, so we got smoked on a daily basis because someone screwed up somehow. Profiles? If you were on profile for too long, or too many times, you went away. The Drill Sergeant told us on the first day that he was going to break us and those who survived would graduate. He stayed true to his word- 11 of the original recruits weren't on the graduation field at the end.

As for training, we received some of the best Infantry-centric training there is. When we were in the field and had down-time, the engineer tape came out and we did room-clearing drills. We learned bayonet combat. We did the bayonet assault course. We did the grenade assault course. Was it all necessary? I think so. If I am ever called on to kick in a door and clear a room, I am confident that I could function adequately. The one bit of training I think was unnecessary or incorrect was the convoy live-fire. No one sits in the back of a soft-sided truck and fires like that. On both of my deployments, the standing order was that nothing short of an MRAP was leaving the wire. So take out all that training and get to the ranges more often. 4 days out of 9 weeks is NOT enough to develop and hone marksmanship skills.

Overall, we should be looking at the USMC training that they do at Parris Island and San Diego for their boot camps. I have yet to hear from Marines that their training was lacking or did not prepare them for their jobs. Their training theories make sense. All Marines are Riflemen first. All their Officers go through The Basic School, so all Officers know what the Infantryman down in the mud is going through. Their capstone to Boot Camp, the Crucible, is a 72 hour constant action field exercise. At the end of the Crucible, every Marine really values their Eagle, Globe, & Anchor insignia. Can we in the Army say that we value our "U.S." and branch insignia equally at the end of Basic Training? I honestly doubt it. So, the Army should look to the USMC for effective and relevant basic training requirements.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 1:25 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 13:25:47 -0500

SFC, I see a lot of great suggestions on here on what to add or what to take away but I think the most important issue is the inability to get all the training done in the correct way. Lets stop training to time and start training to standard again.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 2 at 2014 6:27 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 06:27:58 -0400

SFC - The Army's not alone in struggling with its BCT program. Btw - which company are you with down at Jax? I head there later this week.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/in-survey-lackland-drill-instructors-rip-leaders-say-they-fear-recruits-1.285971

In survey, Lackland drill instructors rip leaders, say they fear recruits

A survey of basic-training instructors conducted during the worst sex scandal in Air Force history revealed a sharp distrust of senior commanders at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland and a widespread fear of recruits.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jun 8 at 2014 11:45 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:45:17 -0400

As I have observed and gained feedback from both cadre and Drill Sergeants, I will say that some training will be changed next cycle. I can't do much with this one since it is locked already by previous CDR. The BRM has changed here from what I was told and some of the missions during FTX will be different next cycle too. The team wants the missions to not be redundant and offer better suited missions on what 19Ds will need to know. Yes its only basic training but, give them an idea on their MOS duties. This is still in the works and will only get better here soon.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 7:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 19:40:12 -0400

I mostly believe the power needs to be given back to the instructors, and taken from the trainees. They're entirely too protected from necessary disciplinary measures. They're soft, mentally week, and entitled. Their arrogance is undeserved.
That, and finding a method of instruction that caters to the new generation. They're immersed and surrounded by technology. That's the majority of these kids' interaction with the world. Implement something. I understand it's ultimately the unit's responsibility to expound upon their knowledge, but they just aren't getting it when they show up. They're not retaining anything. Something needs to be adjusted.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2017 8:49 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 20:49:50 -0400

An extra two or three weeks of training with crew served weapons and learning to patrol would be great, especially if the atmosphere for those two weeks was learning focused and more relaxed for those two weeks. We took new guys fresh from basic and jump school and held them at Battalion for a few weeks in a training platoon to get them prepared because they were so green coming to us - we called it "GRIP". They'd learn more about Airborne ops, patrolling, crew served weapons and radios, get driver's training, and get all their certifications so that they could just fall right in when they were sent to a company. They also weren't so skittish after. Guys straight out of basic always seemed like they were scared of their shadows. I thought it was a great in-unit program.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 7 at 2018 8:50 AM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 07 Aug 2018 08:50:52 -0400

American society needs to be revamped...