Do you agree that War Is Hell, and the Hell Rubs Off?

2015-09-27T13:52:36-04:00

Do you agree that War Is Hell, and the Hell Rubs Off?

PTSD contributes to violence. Pretending it doesn’t is no way to support the troops.

In the picture above a soldier gets emotional during President Obama's remarks at a memorial service at Fort Hood in Killeen, Texas, on April 9, 2014. Earlier this month Army Spc. Ivan A. Lopez killed three and injured 16 others at Fort Hood before taking his own life.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/04/ptsd_and_violence_by_veterans_increased_murder_rates_related_to_war_experience.html

In September 2007, at the height of the Iraq surge, I spent two weeks with the Army’s 2nd Battalion, 12th Infantry in Dora, one of the deadliest neighborhoods in Baghdad. By that point in the war, I had embedded with a dozen-odd infantry units, and 2-12, the “Lethal Warriors” from Fort Carson in Colorado, was one of the best I’d seen. Cocky, aggressive, and competent in all the right ways, they exuded an indifference toward death that was hard not to admire. The dangers they lived with for months are impossible to describe with any justice, but one image stays with me, the thing I saw the first time I walked into 2-12’s command post. On the wall in front of me were 16 framed photographs, one for each soldier killed in-country.

At the end of their 15-month tour in Iraq, the Lethal Warriors returned to Fort Carson with an impressive battlefield record, having cleared one of the worst parts of Baghdad, in some cases digging up IEDs with little more than screwdrivers and tire irons. Unfortunately, the Lethal Warriors achieved a kind of notoriety that was less for their battlefield exploits than for the battalion’s connection to a string of murders. In December 2007 two soldiers from the unit, Robert James and Kevin Shields, were killed, and three fellow soldiers were charged with murder. The killings were part of a larger pattern of violence extending back to 2005, including 11 murders, in what was the largest killing spree involving a single army base in modern U.S. history.

PTSD Contributes to Violence. Pretending It Doesn’t Is No Way to Support the Troops.

In September 2007, at the height of the Iraq surge, I spent two weeks with the Army’s 2nd Battalion, 12th Infantry in Dora, one of the deadliest neighborhoods in Baghdad. By that point in the war, I had embedded with a dozen-odd infantry units, and 2-12, the “Lethal Warriors” from...

Response by Cpl William McGarry made Sep 27 at 2015 1:54 PM

2015-09-27T13:54:14-04:00

Where is the road to hell.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Sep 27 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-09-27T14:12:02-04:00

War can certainly be hell; but, sometimes the "peace" can lead to hell for many as well COL Mikel J. Burroughs .
Neville Chamberlain's statement "Peace for our time" spoken on 30 September 1938 ushered in the destruction of millions in Nazi work and death camps.
The millions that died in the Soviet Union and in Cambodia's killing fields dwarfed those killed in war last century. That being said for those who endured the fire bombings and those sinking on troop.
ships either as troops embarking for war or as POWs war was certainly hell.
By definition hell is the complete absence of God's presence, people who are hellions whether in uniform or out of uniform can rub off on those around them.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Sep 27 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-09-27T15:04:06-04:00

I agree that part of combat stays with you for life,i can't commit farther.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 27 at 2015 3:19 PM

2015-09-27T15:19:37-04:00

War accelerates death, injury, death, regret, guilt, shame, a loss of spirit and humanity.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Sep 27 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-09-27T16:25:43-04:00

COL Mikel Burroughs, What a sobering example that story about the 2/12 Infantry makes. I wish our Nation's people would take time to focus on such disasters as a reminder of the consequences of war.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Sep 27 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-09-27T17:20:51-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, I decidedly agree; though I have never seen combat. I've seen the movies. I've talked to the Soldiers at the VA who have just come back from war. I have talked to/lunched with Soldiers with PTSD.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2015 10:48 PM

2015-09-27T22:48:11-04:00

War is Hell. Humans are wired psychologically to regret killing. Problem is the only way to get over that is to kill. So when you kill repetitively or witness death repetitively it changes how you think and feel towards human life.

Why do you think the Military likes the gamer generation? It is easier than ever to train soldiers to kill since they have been practicing it since they were 12.

Yes, violence creates violence. War is Hell. War Never Changes.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Sep 28 at 2015 3:02 AM

2015-09-28T03:02:53-04:00

Of course PTSD contributes to violence and whatnot. This article while informative does not really state anything we veterans don't already know: both about the connection between violence and PTSD, and how those who do suffer from PTSD are treated by society, the VA, and by the military itself.

In a perfect world, I would have it so that someone who displays early warning signs of PTSD are immediately put in a non-deployable status and given treatment and are in no way being punished (nor should they feel like they are being punished). If treatment isn't successful don't necessarily end their service but keep them around in a position where they don't deploy if it is determined they can still contribute to the military's mission in other ways.

If treatment is successful, and the member wishes it, return them to deployable status and have them do the job they were trained for.

Regardless of either choice, when their time is up offer the member continued support (which would require a complete overhaul of the VA system) and make sure they're set up for success. Yes the military and government claims to already do this, but we've all read about veterans who cannot reintegrate into society successfully.

Response by SSG Jesus Sijalbo made Sep 28 at 2015 3:20 AM

2015-09-28T03:20:44-04:00

It is what it is! Medical Providers need to identify which service members are troubled and address it before it becomes lethal. The military didn't trained you to play Patty Cake! God Bless All of our Service Members and There Love Ones.....

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 28 at 2015 4:45 AM

2015-09-28T04:45:52-04:00

Yep, It leaves scars, of that I am sure. Some Externally, Some Internally.

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Sep 28 at 2015 5:58 AM

2015-09-28T05:58:50-04:00

I was never in combat but as an 18 year old Pfc I was in a Guard Company at the Boston Navy Yard in Charlestown MA & got to know some of the "Frozen Chosin" Marines. Most would not discuss the Chosin but one guy did after a few beers. I doubt if anyone really knows what these guys went through up & around the Chosin Reservoir in 1950... I also noticed the guys who were at the Chosin seemed to hang out together & didn't seem to mix with others much..

Response by CPT Jason Mitchell, MBA made Sep 28 at 2015 9:55 AM

2015-09-28T09:55:19-04:00

Life will give you PTSD...combat is just a bullet train to get you there faster.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 10:58 AM

2015-09-28T10:58:53-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs Most of what I got from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq was positive. A great sense of accomplishment, a new family of brothers, and frankly, a lot of fun.

It's not as popular to say, but given that war is defining for those that participate; it is overwhelmingly positive for a lot of us.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Sep 28 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-09-28T12:27:54-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; About the only thing that the article doesn't say that I have been saying for years is that "War damages EVERY soldier - some more than others.".

One of the problems is that the military (and society) HAS TO "pretend" that it doesn't or there would be no way that anyone of any moral/ethical rectitude at all would be able to advocate war for any reason (as long as there were troops [from "their" side] directly involved).

"Fortunately" technology has progressed almost to the point where we can now "cloud source" our wars and let the gamers on the Internet fight them for us in the most lethal and violent manner possible simply by not telling them that they are actually controlling real machines that are killing real people.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-09-28T14:48:36-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, PTSD is an unfortunate cost of defending our great Nation and the only thing that I can do in my foxhole is to be aware of the cuases and symptoms, continue to be supportive of people that suffer from PTSD and always be look to help when possible.

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Sep 28 at 2015 6:04 PM

2015-09-28T18:04:43-04:00

NOPE sorry but Hell is a Real place that is mentioned in Scripture. War, as bad as it is, it isn't Forever. The Real place called Hell or the Lake of Fire in Scriptures is FOREVER, ETERNAL.

Military "leaders" like to and have a fondness for using and parroting the word "hell" here, there, everywhere and all over the place as some sort of a "Bravado". That's because it makes them look, sound or feel so mucho macho and tough in front of those who by duty have to follow and obey them or else.

Otherwise unlike the Military, in civilian life use that word more than once and more than one subordinate will soon tell you where to go with it.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Sep 29 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-09-29T10:33:20-04:00

There needs to be more effective and increase psychological screening on individuals in "combat zones". There also need to be more serious enlistment screening to and higher standards to weed out borderline and defective individuals..

As to "WAR", realize it is often statistically safer to be in the combat zones of the GWOT, than for units to be in CONUS. Drugs , alcohol , training , and crime, are serious dangers. Yes , some really bad shit is seen in combat zone. What they need is "Better" soldiers, even if personnel levels are unsustainable. That hints toward a bigger problem than PTSD, like the GWOT is a joke the military and US Gov is playing on its citizen soldiers, that is the real psychological/PTSD killer, IMO. Vietnam repeat, without a draft and lower standards.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Sep 29 at 2015 10:36 AM

2015-09-29T10:36:53-04:00

Hawkeye: War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
Father Mulcahy: How do you figure, Hawkeye?
Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?
Father Mulcahy: Sinners, I believe.
Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chalk full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 29 at 2015 2:19 PM

2015-09-29T14:19:12-04:00

Our usual sense of morality is turned on its head with war, and what makes sense in wartime—maybe even is essential in wartime to survive— most often wont make little or any sense once removed from the battle field. While the war is won it may be pyrrhic in nature for many struggling to regain a sense of well being. Yes I do agree that war is hell and that it has a sustaining effect on all that survive.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-09-29T16:36:40-04:00

WAR IS HELL. Does it rub off? Maybe to a point, but myself, it will be a part of me until I leave this earth. The struggles that arise after experiencing combat can be very harsh, and for some too overbearing. Unfortunately, I have lost just about as many friends to PTSD as I lost in combat. I was part of the surge in 2006-2007 which placed me and my battles outside the walls of FOB liberty and into a Joint Security Station smack in the middle of Baghdad (Ghazaliyah). The things that are seen, experienced and done in places like that, can just be imagined as an absolute nightmare. My favorite quote regarding war "War is a b@*th, wear a helmet".

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Sep 29 at 2015 9:57 PM

2015-09-29T21:57:30-04:00

Of course it is! Look at the Pending Affects it has on Soldiers! If you need a WITNESS check the Suicide Rates! Brain Injuries have far more of an impact that the Physical Injuries do! Its harder to detect what you cant see! Unless you have a Genuine Concern for your Battle Buddy and Pay Attention to their Transition!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 12:18 AM

2015-09-30T00:18:41-04:00

The cost of WAR....human-losses-second-world-war-animated-video
http://www.thinkinghumanity.com/2015/06/human-losses-second-world-war-animated-video.html

The Human Losses Of The Second World War In An Animated Video

This amazing 18-minute documentary was created in Vimeo by Neil Halloran, who searches about Second World War's human cost and compares it to other wars in history including the recent conflicts. The video includes graphic and statistics.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 6:38 AM

2015-09-30T06:38:05-04:00

War is hell. the fact that many of walk away alive is in itself a miracle. But I think the worst part is knowing that our brothers and sisters the made the ultimate sacrifice, are not coming home. How can anyone just rub that off? To do so is a slap in the face to anyone who has ever fought and died for this country. Those of us who make it back are never the same, and no matter how much treatment we go through or how many pills they shove down our throats, it will never replace the memories we have of our fallen. My brothers and sisters who suffer from this, know you are not alone and we need to have each others backs.

Response by Sgt Ramon Nacanaynay made Oct 3 at 2015 1:47 PM

2015-10-03T13:47:34-04:00

War is War and Hell is Hell. Hell has sinners. War takes the Innocents and the Good as well. Chews them up and spits them out.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Oct 4 at 2015 6:51 AM

2015-10-04T06:51:27-04:00

I have PTSD andbitnis what it is. My temper is volatile, I don't drink, pop pills or smoke weed.

My aggressions are aimed at extensive lawn care and the shooting range.

We are all trained to close with, engage, and exterminate the enemy with extreme prejudiced.

Does it mean we have to, no,

Is it a day to day to day struggle, yes

With the help of therapy, medication, meditation, I manage. It doesn't take the want of causing destruction to the triggers but I don't. I won't because of Family and the discipline that was instilled in me by the Corps

My mission is being a leader for my family, training my kids for success, and the simple fact that we never stop being parents or a loving spouse.

SEMPER FI

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Oct 20 at 2015 1:47 PM

2015-10-20T13:47:20-04:00

To make it simple War and PTSD are hell, and it does not rub off.

Think of War as the heavy red clay mud on your uniform; once it gets ground in real good ... what's left after cleaning it is PTSD. No matter how hard you try you never get all of the mud out, it just becomes less visible

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Nov 6 at 2015 12:40 AM

2015-11-06T00:40:37-05:00

I don't know if I'd say war is hell, but the effects of war are HELL!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 6 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-11-06T15:48:26-05:00

PTSD has many faces: guilt, anger, depression, anxiety, stress, fright.