Do promotion boards accurately determine who has promotion potential?

2013-11-28T09:34:40-05:00

Are promotion boards a fair promotion potential predictor? Does memorizing a bunch of questions or confidently answering questions (right or wrong) determine a great leader? Do you agree with this traditional system or what would you recommend be better for promotion to SGT and SSG?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2013 9:51 AM

2013-11-28T09:51:31-05:00

I think that the Army needs to move to a job knowledge test.
That encompasses skills needed for MOS and also pay grade.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2013 11:09 AM

2013-11-28T11:09:59-05:00

SSG (P) Moore, I agree with you 1st lines and PSG should have more say and confidence is not everything.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Nov 28 at 2013 11:39 AM

2013-11-28T11:39:19-05:00

Before anything their is something I am very curious, I was reading a particular question that was why are you in RP, one of the SM stated: "To get promotion points", so this question only goes to SM, do you get promotion points for being in RP and how is that set up?

Now to answer the main question, I think the only people who would give a proper answer would be those 1st SGTS whom give the question to the SM during that time.

Promotion based on your MOS skills is one, but leadership is another. What makes a great leader and who can be a great leader is something that is not so easily determined with questioning. A free reign leader can change to a delegated leader based on the circumstance's and can happen with in seconds. That is based on the given circumstances at the time, and that can not be known with questioning. However the promotion board is rather a tool to measure your knowledge of those skills that are required to fight a war and win. Perhaps not all questions are combat related but based on my experience they did appear to be related.

Still I would like to hear from a 1st SGT whom was in the board. :)

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Nov 28 at 2013 9:00 PM

2013-11-28T21:00:15-05:00

Hmm, seems a question similar to this was posted just within the past 24-hours...

https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/12863-enlisted-semi-centralized-promotion-boards-are-they-needed

Enlisted Semi-Centralized Promotion Boards: Are they needed?

Before this question is demonized as 'This is the way it's always been?', consider the significance of the actual promotion board...no more points and only a 'Go' or 'No Go' recommendation.These Soldi...

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Nov 28 at 2013 9:04 PM

2013-11-28T21:04:31-05:00

When the Army removed the promotion points from the promotion board, they removed the promotion board's legitimacy.

The only boards that remain relevant are the Soldier/NCO of the Month/Qtr/Year and the Sergeants Morales/Audie Murphy, to name just a few.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2013 8:24 AM

2013-11-29T08:24:13-05:00

I think boards still have value if managed correctly; but I think it should just be one of several aspects that are reviewed. On the air side we had our yearly performance reviews and (if done honestly) that would give you the best indication of readiness for promotion. Still the promotion board gave you a chance to engage one on one with the individual and if there was a concern it could be explored more thoroughly. Tests are my least favorite method since my experience in the field rarely competes well with the troop who has spent his time at home station studing his course books.

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Nov 29 at 2013 9:59 AM

2013-11-29T09:59:54-05:00

Promotion boards are fair if they are used correctly. A Soldier is sent to the promotion board based off his/her chain of command recommendation. If the the COC believes that the Soldier has the potential for more responsibility at the next grade, then going to the board is valid. My issue isn't the board, it's some of the lazy COCs that send every single Soldier that are eligible by time in service regardless of their potential. Promotions start with proper counseling. Every Soldier should receive a counseling every month based on their promotion potential. Also, it should have details on how to improve or overcome their setbacks.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2013 1:22 PM

2013-11-29T13:22:06-05:00

There's something to be said for scenario based evaluations. Take all your "promotables" and give them a team/squad/platoon and a series of tasks to lead the group through. Throw in some obstacles along the way to see how quickly and effectively they react. This can be MOS specific; gun-crew for the 13Bs, a convoy for the 88Ms, etc... The non-MOS specific stuff can be evaluated pretty easily. "Private Snuffy" comes in and says "My wife cleaned out the bank account and took off with the neighbor's cousin. I'm broke, Sergeant! What do I do?!?" See if this prospective NCO has any idea how to take care of that Soldier; Finance Office, Legal, AER, etc...

Response by SFC Benjamin Parsons made Nov 29 at 2013 2:09 PM

2013-11-29T14:09:47-05:00

In my day, Sgt & SSG promotion boards seemed fair. I recall the questions as being pretty job and position specific. As acting 1SG participated in a couple myself and was extremely impressed with the lack of bias either way.

Most heavily considered aspects were any UCMJ activity (goofy vs. kind of serious) and the points awarded by the Soldier's CO.

I did see the points system RIF one of the best young Sergeant leaders I ever worked with though. Left a very bitter taste. Had I met him earlier in his career I'd have pushed him harder toward point creating activities. My leadership did it for me.

Not even sure the points system familiar to me is still in use.

Every branch has promotion criteria with good and bad aspects. Every branch should open-mindedly look around and see what can be adapted to their process.

Response by 1LT James Avichouser made Nov 29 at 2013 3:03 PM

2013-11-29T15:03:48-05:00

Boards for me were a necessary inconvenience. The reasons for my promotions were based upon proven performance and the board was a diversion from my actual duties and a waste of my time. Those on the board were merely going through the motions and keeping to tradition. There were so many dimensions that went into my jobs that rote answers and canned situations were not really relevant.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2013 4:37 PM

2013-11-29T16:37:23-05:00

I am glad that I had never had to go before a board but I did do briefings each day. Operating under a lot of pressure, I still would shy away from that kind of thing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2013 5:52 PM

2013-11-29T17:52:00-05:00

This might stir up a hornets nest, but no, they don’t. There are a lot of responses here that I do agree with on who and how semi-centralized promotion board selections are done. Yes, I have had 1SG’s and the Battalion CSM state “Each Company will send 2 Soldiers that are on the Promotion Standing list, Secondary Zone and One other; weather they are ready or not.” And like the CSM said, the board members look for a Soldier that can think on their feet, make quick decisions, Mentor, Train and Lead junior Soldiers. So of the Soldiers that go before the board, and do get the recommendation, once they are put into that Leadership position they find out it’s not that easy. Here is where the Army has failed in my mind by promoting Soldiers way too fast and that falls back to THEIR Leadership. Testing, asking Leadership questions, putting the Soldier in a situation and have them give the board a logical, technical, book or Off the wall answer might come back and bite that Soldier. Each branch has its own way of promoting and they too might need to be tweaked as well. It’s up to that Soldiers Leadership to make damn sure he or she is Mentored, Trained, allowed to fail (to a point) shown where the mistakes were made and Grow. A good leader will Assist a junior Soldier, but not give them what they want. That’s earned, like the next Rank.

Response by PO2 Carl Ploense made Nov 29 at 2013 7:13 PM

2013-11-29T19:13:12-05:00

No promotion boards get it right some of the time. If the candidate is either a minority or a female no one on the board will speak against them. No officer or SNCO is willing to jeopardize a career with a complaint of either racism or sexism.

Response by SPC Sherry Mooneyhan made Nov 30 at 2013 8:48 AM

2013-11-30T08:48:32-05:00

No it doesn't. I think that when a soldier goes to WLC or BNCOC they can get the training and knowledge they need there. I was a 42A and was the recorder for many promotion boards and really disliked how it was conducted. I think that hands on or visual training is the best way to going to the next rank. Also, it should take someone with the most experience and know how to lead future leaders.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2013 1:56 PM

2013-11-30T13:56:57-05:00

suggestions:

1. Don't put out an MOI/LOI for the Board. (future)NCO's are expected to think on their feet, right?
2. Have that soldier sell themselves to the Board members as opposed to letting their sponsor do it. Better yet, do away with sponsors completely.
3. Ask more situational questions.
4. Have hands-on tasks for the soldier to perform at the Board that are job related.
5. Ask more job related questions.
6. The Board members should be from a totally different BN/SQDN/BDE.
7. For the ones that DO pass the Board, they should be promoted immediately to Corporal.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2013 2:30 PM

2013-11-30T14:30:43-05:00

I too personally feel promotion boards are now irrelevant since the points have been taken away. Boards should be situation / competition based like Soldier / NCO of the quarter and actually count towards something that will assist in getting promoted. With the way boards are today ( GO / NO GO ) what does that actually assist the Soldier with; they still need to "make points". I completed WLC in 2007 on the Commandant's list; 2008 completed 19K BNCOC as distinguished honor grad and Draper Armor Leadership Award runner up, further proving my leadership skills. I attended the board and was recommended for promotion to SSG in July 2010. Changed MOS to have a more promising future both in the Military and after retirement. Three and a half years after attending a GO / NO GO board and proving my abilities through professional development courses I'm still a SGT. Not because of a board or leadership ability but because promotion points have not budged from 798. Whether a Soldier has amazing leadership potential or not is irrelevant; all that really matters these days are what MOS you hold and what the Army happens to be "looking for" at a particular time. Having moved on from the Armored Corps, I've had plenty of opportunity to meet many a SFC who is completely lost when it comes to leading Soldiers and how they should be treated. A lot of people get to where they are because they were rushed through the ranks due to a specific MOS not because they are capable of leading Soldiers; some have never been in charge of a squad let alone a platoon. I believe the real issue is the promotion system as a whole not necessarily the validity of holding a board.

Response by MSG Bobby Ewing made Nov 30 at 2013 3:45 PM

2013-11-30T15:45:51-05:00

I don't feel that promotion boards (alone) accurately determine a Soldiers promotion potential to SGT or SSG. Effective counseling, mentorship, and guidance, along with the promotion board is required to effectively determine a Soldier's promotion potential.

It starts with the immediate supervisor. The supervisor is with the Soldier day in and day out. He/she is the one makes the initial assessment of a potential Soldier being recommended for promotion, based on performance and MOS specific skills. A Soldier's strengths, weaknesses, and how to capitalize upon or improve should be captured in each counseling. Then follow up assessments are required to validate.

The section leader and PSG are next. They validate the recommendation through mentorship and verifying that the monthly or quarterly performance counseling are effective. If the section leader or PSG identifies issues with a potential candidate, they must ensure the supervisor takes necessary actions to get the Soldier up to speed. This information needs to be placed into the Soldier's counseling and relayed to 1SG and Commander to ensure the Soldier is not recommended on the AAA-117. However, if the Soldier is determined to be ready according to counseling and the recommendations from NCO support channel, then he/she should be recommended for the promotion board.

The promotion board is what I consider to be the final stage for promotion potential. I can honestly say, that in every unit I have served in and witnessed or experienced a promotion board, all questions were designed to test the basic knowledge of what a potential candidate should know or be able to reference for the next level. For example, you are a newly promoted SGT that recently took over your first team. One of your Soldiers comes to you and says his wife is pregnant, they are not financially stable, and they do not believe in abortion, what advice or actions does the team chief take?

With effective counseling, training, mentorship, and the ongoing annual training, a Soldier should be able to spit out an effective answer off without hesitation. Unfortunately, that is not the case in most units across the Army. It's sad to say, you will come across Soldiers at a promotion board that don't even know individuals in their CoC or NCO Support Channel.

I don't see the current promotion system going away or being altered anytime soon, but I do feel that there should be some more checks and balances when it comes to the recommendations for individuals for the promotion board. Also, as a side not, I feel the Automatic Integration Promotion List should go away.

Response by PO2 Carl Ploense made Nov 30 at 2013 9:35 PM

2013-11-30T21:35:03-05:00

No disrespect CSM, I saw it happen time and again in my old unit. I had candid conversations with both senior enlisted and some officers who admit that sitting on a board means they always have some trepidation regarding the treatment of the aforementioned groups.

Response by TSgt Marcial Guajardo made Nov 30 at 2013 10:08 PM

2013-11-30T22:08:48-05:00

In my experience the guys who were promoted by boards were the guys who looked good in uniform and knew how to run the Dog and Pony show...few really deserved their promotion although one of my A1Cs did get BTZ SRA and deserved it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2014 4:40 AM

2014-01-03T04:40:20-05:00

Promotion boards are by no means a good way to assess a Soldier's potential. In my opinion it should be based on the 1st line supervisor's assessment. That's the person that sees the Soldier's work ethic and performance on a daily basis. Most branches determine promotion by military and job knowledge not boards. Now, the problem with the Army going in that direction is that in my personal experience the Army is extremely bad at keeping people in their jobs. Not sure if this only happens in the signal branch, but for the most part, you MOS is irrelevant. We get put into whatever position is available. I am a 25L (Cable System Installer and Maintainer) but I have never worked as one. I have worked as a 25B (Information Technology Specialist) for 7 years and as a 25N (Nodal Network Systems Operator-Maintainer) for one year. The promotion system does need some rework and we should start with the promotion boards. The only benefit that I see about sending people to a board is that you get to see how that handle pressure and that's it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 9:57 AM

2014-03-19T09:57:01-04:00

SFC Moore,

I think memorizing a "bunch of questions" shows discipline and determination.

However, I think there should be some MOS related questions.
It is not just about the Soldier answering the questions but how they are
answered. When I went to my E6 board they got the “memorized” questions out of
the way pretty quickly and then the REAL board started. It was by far the BEST
board I have ever seen (and as a bored recorder I have seen plenty). I was
asked situational questions and my opinions on things in the military. I was
asked what I thought of my Commander, my BDE Commander, this policy and that
policy. What would I do in this situation and that situation? That being said,
the CSM could have thrown me WAY off. However, I tend to be a critical and
creative thinker so I passed!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2014 6:50 PM

2014-03-20T18:50:12-04:00

IMO, the promotion board is to see if the potential is there for the next level. It is up to the Soldiers unit to ensure they are MOS proficient before sending them to the board. Long lost are the days of pulling out the books and having the Soldiers perform Skills Based Tests on their MOS's. I do agree that it should be more than just Q&A. When I went to the NCO of the QTR board, it was a 2 day event. Day one was APFT and basic Soldier tasks that were tested and graded (15 stations if I remember correctly), which included a written test on land navigation. Day two was the actual Q&A part of the board.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 12:52 PM

2014-03-22T12:52:38-04:00

I think the board is neccessary in order to prove competency and confidence that a Leader must posses. Of course, the points system ensures the leader is dedicated to further training and education. However, if we would like to ensure core competency in MOS related skills a skill level certification could be required per grade prior to promotion. The Air Force already has such certifications, but it only affects there skill level but not their pay grade.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-03-22T23:00:54-04:00

It should be based on observed leadership "skills" and potential, observed by the soldiers COC.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 10:10 AM

2014-03-23T10:10:05-04:00

I feel that knowing answers to questions and answering them right away and correctly saying it confidently does work well to say whether or not a person is ready to be an NCO because a person looking to get promoted is nervous because he wants to move forward as well as standing in front of high ranking people and if he performs well under pressure then he at least has a good foundation to build on. I have also seen that a lot of people on the board think that your PT score is the most important thing on your ERB and if you don't have a high score you can't be a good leader and while I do think physical fitness is important I don't think it makes a good soldier or leader, if a person is always motivated to be better and do positive things for himself, for others and for the army as whole he should at least be given a chance for promotion.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Apr 26 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-04-26T10:07:56-04:00

Nope. Your SGM and a bunch of random 1SG's asking you trivia questions doesn't mean anything really. Your company NCO's and 1SG's recommendation should be good enough. They observe your work ethic and interactions daily. They know you. They know your actual potential.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Apr 26 at 2014 10:33 AM

2014-04-26T10:33:53-04:00

My experience has shown me units still have significant impact on NCOs and SNCOs promotion boards. Many NCOs and SNCOs, in the USAR, are overlooked for consideration as units do not do what they should from a standpoint of ensuring Soldiers career accomplishments are accurately reflected in current ERBs and other board documents. Ultimately, I recognize it is an individual Soldier responsivbility to manage your career, but a proactive S1 truly makes the difference between a great Soldier being considered and being overlooked.

More automation may be a way to resolve the issue as we move away from unit level Human Resources support. However, Soldiers will need acces to ensure the ERBs and other board documents are uploaded and approved finally being placed in IPERMS for review. In the places where this occures seemlessly, others need to copy and follow. In the places where this does not happen, correction needs to be made.

I will not pretend to have all the answers, but the system should be fair and all elligible NCOs should be completely evaluated for promotion at every opportunity.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 1:07 PM

2014-04-26T13:07:30-04:00

SFC Moore,
I believe the Army Promotion process does need to be changed. I'm not saying to do away with promotion boards all together, it does show confidence and show you really want this if you studied for it. However I've meet several 1SG's that don't care what FM covers PRT, or what ADP covers Special Operations, because they can Google everything. It is good to know how to go about helping a Soldier who is having financial problems and where to refer him or take him, so promotion boards are good. However they need to add to it, I believe there should be an MOS specific test too. For example a test for what a 68W20 and 68W30 know and so on. I have met and had to many NCOs that got the rank for money, or because he was loved by the chain of command, but when it comes to training they aren't at the knowledge level that they should be at.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2014 2:51 PM

2014-05-23T14:51:28-04:00

I had similar feelings that many on this thread have had about the promotion boards until really thought about it. When I was preparing for the board I did a lot of studying, it made learn things about the Army that up never would have otherwise learned. I believe the promotion board not only helps determine how a person will act under extreme pressure and talking in front of people while maintaining composure, but it also prepares a Soldier for promotion by making the more knowledgeable through the preparation process. Overall, better Soldier by the end.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2014 12:00 AM

2014-05-24T00:00:29-04:00

Of course not. People always buckle under pressure. And people can't always talk to power. You see your 1SG everyday but when he/she is pissed at you, can you speak in complete sentences. Will start and end each sentence with 1SG? Now apply that to your BDE/BN CSM. Just because I can memorize some flash cards doesn't make me a great leader.

I feel promotion boards should be more situation based in terms of how would you deal with a soldier with these types of circumstances? MOS based promotion boards wouldn't work in my opinion because an engineer 1SG can't accurately gauge the knowledge of what a 35G [imagery analyst] is supposed to know. Can an infantry 1SG accurately gauge what a 25 series? I'm with SSG Trewhella, there should be a test

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 2:01 AM

2014-05-27T02:01:51-04:00

I don't belive that a board should determine your promotion status. I think that your records should speak for its self. I get it some one could write you a NCOER and talk you up, you better live up to the hype if they do that. Other wise you won't hold that position for long. If you can't perform a cause of relief should be placed in your file letting the next board know you are not leadership material. For me I hate trying to memorize board material when in reality my record is impeccable and should be promoted based on my experiences and commendations received while performing my role as a leader, mentorand ultimately a soldier.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 19 at 2014 8:05 AM

2014-06-19T08:05:16-04:00

No, but they do a great job of assessing the person that the individual just spent weeks or months studying to pretend to be.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Jul 18 at 2014 5:08 PM

2014-07-18T17:08:17-04:00

I've seen boards go a variety of ways. From the "merry christmas, you all pass with out being asked a single question" to the "there was a dog hair on the inside pocket of your ASU jacket, get out" type. Consistency among different units would be nice. Especially considering some soldiers may PCS shortly after getting that next stripe.

I've always heard that answering questions tests your tact and bearing in a stressful situation. But this doesn't test mental agility, flexibility, and on the spot critical thinking.

I was taught early on that promotion boards SHOULD be a formality. That the mere fact that you were recommended by your first line supervisor, platoon sergeant, and 1SG should represent their confidence in your DEMONSTRATED leadership ability and potential.

The 1SG may see that individual maybe once a day. The Platoon Sergeant slightly more than that. It is the first line supervisor that interacts with this potential leader the most, day to day. This is where the promotion buck needs to stop. A recommendation from this leader should carry the most weight and stand up to scrutiny from all levels.

When ever I see an NCO that is performing poorly, is unmotivated, or a general s**t bag (for lack of a more all encompassing word), I think about the first line supervisor that recommended him for the board. What did that person see in this NCO to earn his endorsement?

If I had to offer an alternative, conduct the board as a Soldier/NCO of the year event. Put the candidates on the land nav course. Give them a rifle with iron sights and 18 rounds. Present scenarios that make the candidate lead individuals and teams. Put them in ASU's, at attention, for a white glove inspection and then put the candidates in their field gear. Let the stress come from the scenarios presented, not the board room. If you thought promotion boards took all day now, this would be a multi day event. But it should weed out the board weenies that can memorize anything, but apply nothing.