Do officers have to adhere to a uniform memorandum that a Sergeant Major publishes?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 02:48:48 -0400

Let's say a Sergeant Major pushes out a uniform memorandum but it's only enforced on the enlisted Soldiers and not the officer side of the house. What are the consequences if I refuse to counsel Soldiers who don't adhere to this until it's 100% across the board? Topic of discussion involves flight uniforms versus ground uniforms, one you can DX if you get oils and stains on them while working and the other you can't. I'd rather my Soldiers wear the flight uniforms while turning wrenches on helicopters without having to worry about trashing their good uniforms. Thanks for your input!

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 24 at 2018 2:56 AM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 02:56:14 -0400

Technically the SgtMaj is not in the Chain of Command, any more than an XO or a Staff Officer is. The memorandum would in some way, shape, or form need to have the blessing of the CO, or re-state a standing order. Up until then no one HAS to adhere to it. That said, never underestimate the "unofficial" authority of the SgtMaj. Pick your battles carefully.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 24 at 2018 3:03 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 03:03:14 -0400

No one has to adhere to it. The CSM is the Commanders advisor only. He or she does not set policy. Having said that, it's very easy for them to get their Boss's signature on it, making it official... Influence and authority can often substitute for each other..

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 3:46 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 03:46:00 -0400

What strikes me as really odd is that I never encountered a SGM/CSM who would even think about putting out a policy memo under his own signature rather than the commanders. It shows such a basic ignorance of command authority that I wonder how that person ever became a SGM/CSM in the first place. Of course, I also wonder about a commander who would allow that to remain out there as well. But as a disclaimer, that was 20 years ago so if they have somehow altered basic command authority doctrine since then, please disregard my comment.

Edit: you didn't mention it in the original post, but if the SGM/CSM memo had the authority line For The Commander on it, then the memo would apply to everyone, including officers. Commanders may delegate signature authority to members of the command staff, including NCOs. Perhaps the commander delegated signature authority for areas such as uniform policy to the SGM/CSM. If that were the case, and the memo had For the Commander on it, it carries the same weight as if the Commander signed it. But if it just went out under the CSM signature block without an authority line, then it wouldn't have authority over anybody as a policy.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 24 at 2018 4:58 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 04:58:03 -0400

Standard are built by NCO’s, written as policy by Commanders and then upheld by NCOs and Officers. The CSM is the keeper of the standards, policies and regulations. I would have to believe that the CSM with his or her Commander has determined the standard in the Motor Pool, Flight Line or otherwise.

Having said that Soldiers are issued coveralls and should be able to wear them as well when working in vehicles, therefore able to slip out of them when leaving the primary work area. As for soiling, Soldiers received an annual allotment to replace their attire. The real issue at hand here is the CSM gone rogue, or die he have the Commanders support. By the way, why don’t you ask him?

Thank you for your service. I for one would not pit myself against a CSM at any grade. Approach it respectfully sharing your opinion and providing options. In the end of the Day the CSM represents the Commander, doudtful he did this on his own. P.S. what does this say about your Commander if he or she does not know! Command Ckimate is a tricky thing.

Response by MAJ Samuel Weber made Aug 24 at 2018 6:48 AM

MAJ Samuel Weber — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 06:48:30 -0400

Misleading question, I would have phrased it “Should I enforce a uniform policy that doesn’t apply to the entire unit”. Enforce standards, while I don’t agree with a CSM writing a policy, he is your CSM and as such can give you orders. I agree with the other commments on this post, be professional and engage your 1SG/PSG and Work the issue though the NCO Support Channel. Don’t worry about what the officers are doing, always feel free to exercise general military authority and enforce AR 6701-1 and DA Pam 670-1. No Soldier should come to you with the excuse “but the officers aren’t doing it!”

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Aug 24 at 2018 7:27 AM

1SG Nick Baker — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 07:27:51 -0400

Officers and senior NCOs, ask questions first to clarify a soldiers questions. If there is a uniform policy, kindly advise the officer of the policy. Everyone makes a mistake and I bet they would rather hear it from you than a senior officer.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 7:48 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 07:48:55 -0400

A couple comments here about how Sergeants Major cannot or should not publish their own guidance in MFR format. Obviously those who have this opinion have never sat on an NCO board or worked in the training community (OC/T or Drill Sergeants). This may not be one of them (can’t spit in aviation without hitting 5 officers), but there are definitely areas in the military where our Senior NCOs do publish guidance that applies to the NCOs or NCO activities that they oversee. When it needs to apply more broadly (e.g. what uniform officers wear on the flight line), it should probably be signed by the Commander to carry the appropriate weight for Officers that haven’t yet tested the limits of crossing their CSM. That said, strongly recommend NOT testing those limits.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Aug 24 at 2018 8:36 AM

LTC John Griscom — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:36:09 -0400

Good question. Depends on the SGM's position in the organization and the level of the organization.
Are there differences in what work is done by enlisted vs officer? Officers don't normally turn wrenches.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Aug 24 at 2018 12:46 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:46:10 -0400

1. Your question covers two dissimilar things. Uniforms for Officers and Uniforms for enlisted. 2. The CSM can do as he wants as long as backed by the CO, particularly when it comes to enlisted- last I checked he/she was the SENIOR ENLISTED in the unit. 3. Since you want to set yourself up as higher than the CSM, then the consequences of refusing an order is on your head and stripes. It does not matter what the O's wear since you and the other enlisted are NOT Officers! Nor does what you want to see matter either. Instead of whinnying in public, why do you get off your 4th POC and take your complaint to the CSM?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2018 1:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 13:38:37 -0400

Sounds like a Sergeant Major got tired of chasing crew chiefs who adopted Warrant Officer Regulation 670-1 lol

Response by MSgt George Cater made Aug 24 at 2018 2:16 PM

MSgt George Cater — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 14:16:13 -0400

Who the hell lets a sergeant major issue policy for a command anyway. Does he command the enlisted side and the CO only command the officers?? And people say the Marines are weird just cause they like crayons.

Response by MSgt Stephen Council made Aug 24 at 2018 2:45 PM

MSgt Stephen Council — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 14:45:32 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member There are three principals that you need to think about here:
1. The idea of a lawful order. In my experience, you don't make Sergeant Major by accident, and when you do, you expect orders to be followed. As a flight superintendent, if the Chief Master Sergeant issued a uniform order and the regulation doesn't prohibit it, I would eat you alive for telling your subordinates to ignore it.
2. Do not inspect the inspectors. You can "remind" the officers (RESPECTFULLY) of the new standard, but you cannot order them to correct it any more than you should instruct your subordinates to ignore it.
3. Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. For you, the dragons are the Sergeant Major and Officers of your unit until you know your position is bulletproof, even then, tread lightly, as you have some distance to travel before you are at the level of the SGM!

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 24 at 2018 2:55 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 14:55:08 -0400

Generally CSM / SGM don't make policy unless they are serving as a Commandant. They contribute to and have input in development of policy and ultimately enforce it.
They can write OPORD, TACSOP, SOP, TTPs or policy memos for the Commander if that's the relationship they have, but normally the Commander ultimately reviews, approves and signs the final cut. Then there is delegation of authority and what the Commander has authorized the CSM / SGM to do and sign on their behalf.

As far as weather the officers are or aren't following posted policy; as a Sergeant, that's an issue for you to bring to the PSG, 1SG and CO to correct and has no bearing on your responsibility to enforce policy with your Soldiers. However failure to follow a lawful order as a consequence comes to mind if you "refuse" to enforce a lawfully written and posted policy pertaining to uniform wear as large portions of 670-1 are punitive in nature and any uniform memo or policy should reference that reg.

My dealings with flight uniforms are minimal but it was my understanding that they were primarily issued for fire retardant purposes, are expensive and grease and oil reduced their effectiveness and fire resistance. Would coveralls actually be a more cost effective, appropriate garment for maintenance folks to be wrenching in, and have you approached the chain of command to see if they are available?

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Aug 27 at 2018 4:34 PM

LtCol George Carlson — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:34:34 -0400

Unless things have changed (and a lot has in 28 years) the naval services keep it simple. The heading says, "From: Commanding Officer, HMLA-999
and the signature may be the Sgt Major's with the byline, "By direction." Then it isn't from the SgtMaj, but from the CO!