Do leaders check their subordinates' uniforms before they go to the NCO board to check if they are proper?

LCpl Sandy Moran — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:53:10 -0400

My son went to the NCO board and failed. One reason I don't agree with the other I question. He was told he did not have the ribbons or hash mark on his sleeve and the ribbons ,he didn't know he should have. My question is. Doesn't the Sgt. check there uniforms before going to the board to check if he is proper? And if not how does he find out about these ribbons or even the hash mark? Apparently there was no mention in his file. Because they added it while he was in front of the board. And they said his weight to height ratio was n/g even though he passes all the PT tests? this one I don't agree with he's off about 5-10 lbs maybe. His company goes through Sgts. at a rapid pace. [discharge- transfers ect.]. And no one noticed about a hash mark I thought was for 4yrs. of service apparently it's for 3yrs, of service.? Why wasn't he informed?

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Oct 6 at 2020 1:11 PM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 13:11:13 -0400

SGT's cross the threshold of being handed and/or told everything to doing the telling. The best Soldier to take care of your son is your son. I recommend he familiarize himself with the wonderful world of regulations and re-look the CSM's board guidance. I am positive there will be plenty of things he will notice he can improve upon.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2020 1:22 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 13:22:36 -0400

I have to question the "they added it while he was in front of the board". There is a cutoff date for board files that is a couple of weeks prior to the board meeting. If it wasn't in his file by the cutoff date, the board isn't going to see it. And every soldier is afforded the opportunity to review their packet before it is sent to the board, so anything that was in his file he should have known about and had a couple of weeks to correct.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Oct 6 at 2020 2:00 PM

SSG Paul Headlee — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 14:00:21 -0400

I don't know how to say this without pissing you off but rest assured that is not my intent. A SPC should not need an NCO to check his uniform before reporting to the promotion board. He should know how to set up his uniform and should know what he is authorized to wear. He should be able to quote wear and appearance verbage from AR 670-1, chapter and verse as it applies to him. There is also a military awards pub entitled AR 672-5-1 (which has probably been loooong superceded). A simple Google search will yield more information than he wants. He is responsible for preparing himself. He is responsible for his weight control. He was not prepared for this board appearance. Having said this, when I recommended a soldier for consideration for any board (or test like the Expert Infantryman Badge) I made sure he had a fighting chance at success but they had to meet me more than half way by demonstrating desire to distinguish themselves from their peers. Not all NCOs do this and I can't vouch for others. This board was a demonstration of your son's ability to take charge of a process involving only himself. He's not there yet. I want the best for your son. Its awesome that he is a soldier. I think that's wonderful. He's got some work to do and as a Marine you know this. He should start competing for Soldier of the Month, Quarter and Year. He should investigate the SGT Morales Club and the SGT Audie Murphy Club and know why they exist. He should read the two regs I mentioned cover to cover. There are online study guides and advice everywhere you look. Best of luck to your son and I hope you take my comments in the spirit they were offered.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2020 2:02 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 14:02:21 -0400

AR 670-1 spells out the uniform. Which ribbons are missing? Sounds like all of them. He should at least have a row, yea? (Nat Def, GWOT, Army Service)

For him to be a No-Go on weight he'd also have to be a No-Go on body fat. The board just didn't look him over and say he's fat, they went off of form DA705 which includes a body fat % measurement. A soldier CAN be OVER weight but they CANNOT be over body fat %. Agree or not, he's off by body fat based on a calculation of his neck and waist measurements relative to his height and weight.

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It might have helped if he had an NCO prepare him for the board, but that No-Go on the DA-705 was pretty much going to get him anyway. His packet shouldn't have been submitted with that 705.
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At least the mother is here on Rally Point, and not actually calling the unit.
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I'd also like to call out the irony in this case about a Marine calling out the Army for being too stringent on our body weight standards.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 6 at 2020 3:07 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 15:07:27 -0400

If you need an NCO to inspect your uniform before the board, or to do your research for you and regurgitate it to you like a momma bird puking knowledge into your mouth, you're clearly not ready to be an NCO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2020 3:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 15:49:22 -0400

Because he is attending a promotion board to evaluate his potential for promotion, he is expected to have some responsibility for learning these things himself. He has access to his ERB any time he chooses by logging in on a computer. It’s common knowledge, especially for someone with three years in the Army, that your uniform should match your ERB. His sponsor should have checked his uniform, but it is ultimately his uniform, his record, and his responsibility. The pre inspection that most NCOs do is to make sure your uniform is assembled correctly. In order to catch his deficiencies the NCO would have needed to print off the Soldiers ERB and check all his ribbons against that. There is no guarantee the NCO that sponsored him was even his NCO, and not someone who was assigned to sponsor him at the last minute.

As for personal responsibility, we have regulations that are easy to search, easy to access and easy to read when it comes to uniforms. He also has access to his NCOs to request one of them look at his uniform ahead of time. I am a Senior NCO and I still have another NCO look at my uniform any time soon have a board. The purpose of the board is to assess promotion potential, and if a Soldier needs to be babysat to pass the board, then they are not ready to be an NCO. As an NCO “Nobody told me” is not an acceptable excuse. Promotion is for the best performing and most competitive.

I believe your son is not giving you the whole story on many of these scenarios. We do not have a HT/WT ratio in the Army. We have body fat percentage. If he failed his last tape test he would be flagged and ineligible to attend the board in the first place.

Your son can fix his uniform and attend the promotion board next month. A lot of Soldiers fail the board the first time, it’s not a career ending failure, he won’t be flagged, there are no negative consequences for him. It’s a learning experience. Now he knows to get into the regulation and find the knowledge he needs and he can do the same for his Soldiers when he becomes an NCO

Response by SFC Rapfeal Mayfield made Oct 6 at 2020 4:07 PM

SFC Rapfeal Mayfield — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:07:54 -0400

NCOs should be checking uniforms. I can only speak for myself but I know I did when I had a Soldier going to the board. That is something that should be done prior to the day of the board...fixing a missing ribbon is doable but service stripes or combat stripes cant be fixed the day of.

Response by SFC Michael D. made Oct 6 at 2020 4:23 PM

SFC Michael D. — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:23:57 -0400

My leadership checked me and I by tradition did the same to my subordinates.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Oct 6 at 2020 4:42 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:42:53 -0400

His first line should be checking or his sponsor since the sponsor has to go in with them. However, one time I got tagged literally five minutes before a board while on Rear D to sponsor a junior soldier I didn't supervise. I knew him because he was in my company but that's it. I went in and the SGM that was there asking me questions and I flat out said I literally don't know this soldier SGM, I just got made his sponsor right before we walked in. Of course he didn't like that - but I had no time to do but a cursory glance and it looked good then.

When I took my own soldiers to boards, I looked at their uniform. However, realize it's also on your son to know what right looks like especially if he wants to be a NCO. He could have also asked some other NCO to look at it or a friend. His 1SG. Anyone. Did that happen?

How does one know what ribbons they're authorized? Their ERB if in the Army.

Height/weight is separate from the PT test. You can max a PT test and fail height/weight. If he had failed height/weight and tape, I don't know why anyone sent him to the board at all. Is he flagged? You can fail weight but pass tape...

Yes the service stripe is one for every three years of service - same as the Good Conduct Medal one gets every three years (if they don't get UCMJ).

It sounds like possibly a failure by his NCOs but also - everyone's career is their responsibility. I've had more shitty NCOs than good ones. I have had to find out a lot on my own.

Why are you asking this question for him and he isn't asking himself?

Response by SSG Dale London made Oct 6 at 2020 4:46 PM

SSG Dale London — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:46:31 -0400

One of the greatest teachers we have in life is failure. Tell your son to learn from this and do better next time. Then, when he DOES get promoted, he will be a much better, more effective, and successful NCO.
As it stands, I am afraid that if I had been on the board I would probably have failed him too.
One of the main reasons the army uses promotion boards is to evaluate traits like attention to detail, personal motivation, and general leadership qualities. This cannot be done if a soldier gets his hand held throughout the process.
It is a soldier's personal responsibility to know what his uniform is supposed to look like. If he is in doubt he should take it to his NCO and ask for advice. For the NCO to seek HIM out and inspect it would defeat the purpose. It would be an example of that NCO's initiative, not the soldier's. Your son should have asked his NCO to inspect his uniform in plenty of time for him to rectify any shortcomings.
Likewise, it is a soldier's personal responsibility to make sure he is within the height/weight standards. If he is a bit over he will know it because it will be there in black and white on his last PT test record.
It is fixable if, when it is noted, the soldier immediately takes steps to get back within standard. But being 5-10 lbs over is enough to get you kicked out of the service if you don't fix it. Your son should have shed the weight and requested a record weigh-in to make sure the board saw he was within regulation.
Nevertheless - if he sorts these things out he will get another bite at the cherry. And he will be a better candidate for it. This is an opportunity for him to really take the bull by the horns and shine. Tell him so.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2020 7:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 19:56:07 -0400

Honestly, if he doesn't know those basic things and can't get his uniform straight, he has no business being an NCO whose job it is to square lower enlisted away

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 6 at 2020 8:36 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 20:36:24 -0400

Ma'am, at what point is he suppose to grow up? He went to the board to show that he is ready for promotion and be an NCO. If they have to baby him to the board, then he is not ready in any way, shape or form.

Response by COL Kelly Hines made Oct 7 at 2020 10:59 AM

COL Kelly Hines — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 10:59:56 -0400

If he busted HT/WT (didn't make tape), he shouldn't have even been in the room (different story if he busted HT/WT but made tape)_...his sponsor/squad leader probably got talked to by his CSM/1SG for the ribbons and service stripes (his 1SG probably heard from the CSM as well) but ultimately on the Soldier to know what is on his/her ERB and most are eager to add stuff as soon as they get it. His CoC should have been talked to about his HT/WT failure/why a flagged Soldier was at the board...or why a 670-1 failure was not flagged...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 12:51 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:51:33 -0400

Your son should have known better. Your son has been in long enough to know what is needed and what is not needed. Yes, there should have been an NCO to check the uniform well before the Board....but ultimately the responsibility for uniform preparation lies soley on your son.

This is a learning lesson for your son. Next time he will know better and do better. And if he doesn't, it's still on him and no one else.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 7 at 2020 6:13 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:13:09 -0400

It’s not a mystery. He should have gone through his ERB and ensured it matched his uniform, including his service stripes. Curious what exactly he was missing and why he didn’t know.

As for being in compliance with AR600-9, that is what it is. You have to be in compliance at all times. There is not slosh for 5-10lbs over. He either needs to make height/weight or the body fat authorized. Sucks, but there it is.

If he is promoted to Sergeant these are the very things he’d be expected to coach train and mentor soldiers on.

Should his Sergeant have checked his uniform? Yes, but is this the same person you’ve had multiple posts on as drunk on duty? Not sure there is much help to be had.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 10:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 22:01:31 -0400

I see you were in the Corps just like me. The Army does their service stripe at 3 years whereas the Marine Corps is 4. Different services, different rules. He should have had his uniform looked over and verified by the ERB. Also Height and weight also has Body fat included. If your kid didn't pass he is probably just fat. I'm 20 pounds over but tape in at 15% and have a 300 apft and scored a 584 on the ACFT. His promotion board failure is on him and his NCOs. He shouldn't have even went