SSG Private RallyPoint Member 17863 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;Multiple times through out my career, I&#39;ve run into leadership (mostly Officer side of the house) that operates with the understanding that they are the know all/end all of information and rightness (mostly LT&#39;s).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I&#39;ve noticed that even politely having a discussion with these types of leaders about how they address NCO&#39;s in formation, or talk to enlisted soldiers in general gives no results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do you feel is the best way, as an NCO, to approach a leader who refuses to recognize subordinate leaders as leaders and simply as subordinates?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Officers, your opinions are welcome as well maybe you can give me/us some insight into the best way to approach you and your peers.&lt;/p&gt; 2013-12-09T01:44:06-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 17863

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;Multiple times through out my career, I&#39;ve run into leadership (mostly Officer side of the house) that operates with the understanding that they are the know all/end all of information and rightness (mostly LT&#39;s).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I&#39;ve noticed that even politely having a discussion with these types of leaders about how they address NCO&#39;s in formation, or talk to enlisted soldiers in general gives no results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do you feel is the best way, as an NCO, to approach a leader who refuses to recognize subordinate leaders as leaders and simply as subordinates?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Officers, your opinions are welcome as well maybe you can give me/us some insight into the best way to approach you and your peers.&lt;/p&gt;

2013-12-09T01:44:06-05:00 2013-12-09T01:44:06-05:00 CW2 Joseph Evans 17872

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Blanket Party...&lt;br&gt;Seriously though, that sort of narcissistic approach to leadership is what leads to toxic work environments. In most cases, if the &quot;leader&quot; in question doesn&#39;t adequately sabotage himself, his subordinates usually provide himself adequate opportunity to stick his foot in his mouth as things go on.&lt;br&gt;That being said, some of them still make it to BN and even BDE command by will of some maleficent angel that sits on their shoulder.&lt;br&gt;As a subordinate, you will never get through to them. So you have two choices, stick around and do your best to alleviate the damage they do, or save your skin and transfer out as quickly as possible.&lt;br&gt;

2013-12-09T02:07:21-05:00 2013-12-09T02:07:21-05:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 17878

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>My experiences outside the weather personnel was largely with pilots and other officers.   Almost all were pretty cool but a few tried to show off.  The more experienced pilots addressed that on their own and you just knew that most pilots knew we were a professional bunch and the respect was mutual.   A veteran pilot can help you out,  if a forecaster listens.

2013-12-09T02:51:31-05:00 2013-12-09T02:51:31-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 17902

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>First off, you should be typing at attention when you are asking an officer a question?&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I really hope no officer would ever do that but I am sure they are out there. I dealt with this some when I enlisted. I can say that when I went to my BOLC, which I just finished, a lot of officers really don&#39;t grasp the concept that they are not the best anymore. In you officer training they are led to believe this. Examples of this would be at West Point the Senior are the experts and are far more knowledgeable in West Point stuff than the other year groups. When this carries over into the Army it is dangerous. I was the only prior service in my group at BOLC. I was able to help a lot out with dealing with NCOs as I was a SSG before commissioning. I would say that if they don&#39;t listen they need to be put in their place. At times some would say that I was wrong and it wouldn&#39;t work. The idea or plan I was promoting would usually come from an SOP or a deployment I did and did work. But they don&#39;t understand the logic. I would gently remind them that with two tours and one as a infantry squad leader, it will work. Then I would ask them how they dealt with this in West Point. Then hopefully they would realize they don&#39;t have experience. &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/div&gt;

2013-12-09T07:27:47-05:00 2013-12-09T07:27:47-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 18046

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>SSG Barin, </p><p>Before<br />I joined 2CR I was at Drum where I had a 1st Lt that was a prior<br />enlisted and tried to act as a NCO rather than Officer. My fellow NCOs and I took<br />him aside and talked about things to make sure he remembered where he was<br />positioned in the PLT. As at the time the senior SL we have to support him as<br />well as help him with the tactical decisions to keep the men safe and moral<br />high. When I finally signed into 2CR guess what a CO that was prior enlisted as<br />well, if your fellow NCO’s feel the same way and with the support of the PSG<br />you all may want to have a census with said Officer.  Barin let us not forget the CO/XO we had<br />before I left talking to them was very difficult but with the senior NCO<br />advising his Officer it should work itself out. Shoot me a message and I will<br />see what we can do</p>

2013-12-09T15:09:03-05:00 2013-12-09T15:09:03-05:00 1SG Steven Stankovich 18071

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Leaders who believe they are the "know all/end all of information and rightness" are almost the worst type of leaders (in my opinion).  The worst type of leaders are the ones who actually day in and day out bring that beliefs to the table and it becomes their style.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Officers and Noncommissioned Officers have very distinct roles but those roles do "bleed over" which requires cross-talk and mutual respect.  If that does not happen, then the unit as a whole will go into a downward spiral.  Toxic leadership and other buzz words like that are then tossed around.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I would suggest that if you are experiencing this type of leadership within your organization that you bring it up to your PSG, 1SG and CSM.  Each of those NCOs should have the "ear" of the PL, CO CDR and SQDN/BN CDR.  It is very difficult to address or attempt to fix issues if they are not brought up.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

2013-12-09T15:40:57-05:00 2013-12-09T15:40:57-05:00 SGT Ben Keen 18073

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Tact was always an interesting thing while I was in the service.  You are right, sometimes you get these leaders, both on the NCO side and the Officer side that feel he/she is the end-all-be-all to the military.  This type of leader is toxic to all of those around and sadly, can get someone hurt or killed based on their refusal to listen to the input of others.  But let's keep in mind, 2LTs and freshly prompted SGTs are facing a huge mountain to climb.  You come into or reenter your unit with this new authority and you have to figure out the best to use it.  Sure, you can come in like an idiot, yelling and throwing things around, making people do push ups and whatever other crazy stuff you think will "earn" you the respect or you can come in, remember where you came from and listen to those around you because they were in your shoes too.  Sometimes the best leaders are those that stop talking and start listening.  

2013-12-09T16:01:36-05:00 2013-12-09T16:01:36-05:00 SSG Laureano Pabon 18085

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Types of leaders.</p><p><br></p><p>A. Free-Rein Leadership:</p><p>Indirect supervision of subordinates, form of management supervision that allows others to function on their own without extensive direct supervision. People are allowed to prove themselves based upon accomplishments rather than meeting specific supervisory criteria.</p><p><br></p><p>B. authoritarian leadership:</p><p>A ledearship style which the  leader dictates <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/policies-and-procedures.html">policies and procedures</a>, decides what <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/goal.html">goals</a> are to be achieved, and directs and <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/control.html">controls</a> all <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/activity.html">activities</a> without any meaningful <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/participation.html">participation</a> by the <a href="http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/subordinate.html">subordinates</a>.<br><br>C. Delegative Leadership Style:</p><p>Delegative leadership is a somewhat hands off approach in which the leader places great responsibility on lower level managers and employees.<br><br></p><p>SSG Barin, the above definitions I had to find on the web, but in leadership school each was part of the study, from the sounds of your those leaders they sound to be more authoritarian. But then again what makes an authoritarian leader maybe something that they perhaps are being pushed into getting done with out delays, or something is causing them to be as such.</p><p>One thing I can say is that at some point in our lives as leader or better yet its been me who has found that at some point I have been all 3. But not all the time, I tend to be more delegative if I find my troops know what needs to be done. </p><p><br></p><p>I personally can not evaluate your condition with the given information, so I had not choice but to provide you with the definitions of the types of leaders.</p><p><br></p><p>I had in my past experienced your situation, but I only looked at it as following orders and it was not an order that I felt  I didn't need for me to think twice. </p><p><br></p><p>If you feel your being invalidated, a unit transfer will handle that were nothing can be resolved. But talk to your 1st SGT first. "TOP" should be able to help you. </p><p>If your getting a unit transfer or platoon transfer, be certain that you know who your going to get involved with before making the final decision. <br></p>

2013-12-09T16:54:33-05:00 2013-12-09T16:54:33-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 18154

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Most of the company-grade officers I have known, know better than to act like a know-it-all, unless it is widely understood that they had an NCO career before they were commissioned. SSGs and SFCs are the biggest know-it-alls, it seems, followed by MAJs, but over the years I learned that every MAJ goes through a time period when s/he's a jerk and it's usually when s/he's the S-3, so it will pass. ;) <br><br>So, to answer your question, whenever you have a bossypants giving you unsolicited advice, thank them politely for their opinion and tell them you will take it into consideration.<br>

2013-12-09T19:53:56-05:00 2013-12-09T19:53:56-05:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 18156

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think there is a school on the Hudson River whose goal is producing this kind of officer.

2013-12-09T20:01:46-05:00 2013-12-09T20:01:46-05:00 CH (CPT) Heather Davis 18163

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Serving in this Military for thirty years I do the following.<br><br><br><br>Stand on regulation<br><br><br><br>Do not entertain nonsense.<br><br><br><br>Memorandum for Record for all incidents where they did not take <br />guidance.<br><br><br><br>Extreme circumstance requests <br />open-door <br />policy and <br />pull in your <br />CSM.</p><p><br></p><p>Drop EO complaint, IG, regulate your Officers if they are dirt bags do everything in your power where they do not make MAJ, LTC.</p>

2013-12-09T20:19:31-05:00 2013-12-09T20:19:31-05:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 18317

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Major Parker has hit the nail squarely because problems happen when respect is lost and it can be as simple as moving a desk or missing some appointment.  First, if you treat as a person as you would want to be treated, you will probably have less hassles.

2013-12-09T23:11:11-05:00 2013-12-09T23:11:11-05:00 CH (CPT) Heather Davis 18349

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>MAJ Parker:</p><p><br></p><p>I agree, maintaining Military Bearing and being professional is the Military way and should be the standard. I stand on regulation and going through your Chain of Command and keeping circumstances at the lowest level.<br><br>However, Soldiers are dealing with unethical, immoral, situations it is imperative that one has personal courage and speaks out. The abuse of power in our ranks has to be stopped, and unfortunately many have come in our Military not to serve but to be served.<br><br>Our most precious resource is America's Son's and Daughters and as <br />Leader's good order and discipline are often under minded due to the lack of mentoring and development of our future.</p><p><br></p><p>I admire and highly respect your wise <br />counsel, I was raised by Vietnam Veterans, and I will strive to be more professional. This is a hot button for me. I was enlisted for 22 years and have came through the ranks.</p><p><br></p><p> <br></p>

2013-12-10T00:26:58-05:00 2013-12-10T00:26:58-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 18368

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>First off, thanks to everyone for their sound advice and wisdom.<br /><br />I'm not dealing with this type of leadership right now, just had a run in yesterday that reminded me of it.<br /><br />I believe whole heartedly in using tact, but at the same time if something is wrong I won't be quiet about it. I refuse to let soldiers be trampled by inexperience and arrogance.<br /><br /><br />Again thank you everyone, I was just looking to start a discussion, didn't realize it came out looking like I had a problem! Ha ha.

2013-12-10T01:07:58-05:00 2013-12-10T01:07:58-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 18919

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Being prior enlisted this wasn't an issue because I had seen how the Army operates from the other side. From my side I would bring my grievances up to your PSG and let them know the issue. A good NCO is going to kick the snot out of the LT, like my first one did to me when I got some crazy ideas, and hopefully resolve the problem. If not your PSG can then bring it to the 1SG who has the commander's ear. I saw this method work where the CO gave an "OPD" to a LT who was riding his enlisted troops like servants. Every unit is different so you will have to feel out the right course of action. I hope this advice helps.

2013-12-11T11:32:02-05:00 2013-12-11T11:32:02-05:00 SFC James Baber 36594

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.</p><p><br></p><p>We also have fun at times while remaining professional.</p>

2014-01-11T23:00:45-05:00 2014-01-11T23:00:45-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 91606

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think that no matter what rank a Soldier is, PVT to GEN, a certain degree of humility must be maintained. Too often I see other senior leaders not willing to swallow their pride and admit they were wrong. Example: A 1SG jumps all over a PSG or SQD LDR for not updating a record...the PSG tries to explain that the record was most certainly updated. Then is able to show proof that it was done long before it was ever an issue brought up. Apologies are not for everyone, but a level of humility and being able to admit that you were wrong will show all involved that you are human and it will foster trust between leaders. Failing to admit or show fault will create a very tense working relationship and drive a wedge between leaders. Just my opinion.

2014-04-02T12:03:26-04:00 2014-04-02T12:03:26-04:00 CW3 Private RallyPoint Member 91613

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>To be honest, 'leader' is not a title that someone can give you or take away from you. It is an inherent quality exemplified by your actions. People will choose to follow you, or they won't. If you are truly said leader, nothing a Lieutenant thinks is going to affect you in the first place.

2014-04-02T12:12:34-04:00 2014-04-02T12:12:34-04:00 MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member 178289

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>SSG B,<br /><br /> I know I'm coming late to the discussion and I hope the issues you were experience have been worked out. I'll still give my opinion though, since we all run into leaders like this throughout our careers.<br /><br /> First, always be prepared to professionally and tactfully state your case to the Leaders you are having the difference with. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You just have to wait out some folks. There isn't always a golden bullet. <br /><br /> Second, if your professional and tactful Soldier to Soldier interaction doesn't work, and you really have a valid concern, take it up the chain. I'll caveat this heavily though. Make sure that the issue is actually something of consequence and not just a personal disagreement of styles of leadership. I've seen personal differences turn into personal vendettas between leaders and subordinates leading to no changes in leadership, but significant hits to morale, cohesion, and reputations of all involved. My rule of thumb is "if it isn't illegal, immoral, or unethical, and that leader has the authority to make the decisions they make", I generally don't take it beyond a one on one conversation. <br /><br /> As much as we don't like it, toxic leaders are sometimes trials we must endure to build our own character and enhance our own leadership qualities. You can be most effective by modeling what a good leader looks like all the time. Soldiers will generally see the difference between someone who is actually being a leader and those who are just abusing power and authority. That contrast will stay with many of them their entire careers. <br /><br />Just my thoughts... good luck.

2014-07-14T20:49:53-04:00 2014-07-14T20:49:53-04:00 2013-12-09T01:44:06-05:00