Crying in the military; I find this to be very unprofessional, what are your thoughts?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:38:55 -0400

<p class="p1">Edited update: My issues is with Soldiers that you are giving counseling statements because they failed doing there job and I am trying to make them better Soldiers and they just break down with tears like there life is over. That is very manipulative and I find it to be very unprofessional.</p>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 7:46 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:46:22 -0400

Respectfully, it sounds like you've never been to the funeral of a friend.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 13 at 2014 7:55 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:55:38 -0400

Think you would need to provide a little more context to you statement for many others to comment on it.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 13 at 2014 9:38 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 09:38:07 -0400

I've cried in pain for those I've lost in combat operations and I am not ashamed to share that with you.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 10:15 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:15:02 -0400

I completely disagree.<div><br></div><div>It's those who bottle all of their emotions up that lose it and snap.</div>

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 13 at 2014 10:45 AM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:45:15 -0400

Example?  I have cried at flag ceremonies and at funerals.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I have had Troops break down in front of me, but there was always a good reason.  Crying to try and get your way... I have no respect for that.  It isn't unprofessional to cry.  We are meant to be stoic, but even the hardest of us will shed a tear for his/her fallen comrade.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 13 at 2014 10:52 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:52:42 -0400

Sounds like you're crying about it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 10:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:59:38 -0400

When on the same day I found out one of my most beloved civilian employees died in the ICU, my 20 year old Corpsman got cancer and a soldier checked into rehab because of cocaine and heroin use, yeah I cried. And SFC, with all due respect it's unfair if you think I'm unprofessional. However, I find that I don't really care. I know and my NCOER reflects that I'm the NCOIC of the second largest sterile processing department in the DOD. And my Commanding General thinks I'm plenty professional.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Apr 13 at 2014 1:32 PM

PO2 Rocky Kleeger — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 13:32:23 -0400

I had just lost my best friend down the intake of a jet.  Did I cry?  Yes I did.  Was it unprofessional?  Who cares?

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 13 at 2014 2:22 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:22:02 -0400

Crying or whining?  There's a difference.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 2:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:57:38 -0400

In addition to a few ramp-side ceremonies, I cried during the memorial ceremony of one of my dearest friends.  My First Sergeant asked me to give the eulogy, it being common knowledge in the Company that we were close.  I barely managed to finish before I pretty much lost it, but I will never be ashamed for that.  The worst part though was a few minutes later, when we watched and listened to our First Sergeant give the Last Roll Call.  You could see it destroying him, tears rolling freely down his face because one of HIS soldiers who HE was responsible for, was now dead.  He cried, yet it was one of the singularly most professional moments I have ever witnessed since enlisting.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 4:51 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:51:59 -0400

This question is quite vague as there are many situations that allow for the shedding of tears and there are just as many situations where tears are shed and it is not professional at all.

Most everyone who has served and has experianced the loss of a fellow brother or sister in arms has shed a tear or two.... or many many more.... in their time. Those are always emotional moments as these men and women are the very same individuals you might have met a short time before but have had to relay on them to be there for you to cover your six when things got crazy. How one could not cry in a situation like this would be a better question.

Where it would be unprofessional to cry is after disciplinary or corrective actions brought on by your own actions or the actions of your peers. this being said, we sadly still see tears.

Response by MSG Jose Colon made Apr 13 at 2014 6:14 PM

MSG Jose Colon — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 18:14:30 -0400

I'm really glad that I am not alone shedding tears now and then.

Thinking of the terrorist attacks in New York, I cry.

Seeing the bodies on the Boston Marathon I cry.

Remembering by buddies injured in action or KIA I cry.

Standing there saluting the flag I cry.

Singing America the Beautiful I cry.

Yeah, I know, I'm a cry baby. But, if you do not get emotional when confronting the death of a loved one or a battle-buddy, do find some help.

You will go through the stages of grieve, and crying is normal in mentally healthy humans.

I have seeing the most professional and tougher warriors shed a tear or two.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 13 at 2014 10:43 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:43:09 -0400

Oh how I wish this was a survey question.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 10:48 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:48:32 -0400

<div>SFC S.</div><div><br></div>We worked very hard in triage, surgery, recovery, and on the wards.  We lost far too many fine young men.  We cried, we drank, we cried some more.  Then we went back to work.<div><br></div><div>Be very thankful you haven't been given a good reason to cry. There are plenty of reasons!</div><div><br></div><div>Warmest Regards, Sandy</div><div><br></div>

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 11:43 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:43:04 -0400

Whining is unprofessional; crying however is not, there are a lot of things that happen while serving in the military that can cause someone grief and there is nothing wrong with expressing it. (although wailing loudly in public probably wouldn't be so appropriate)

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 13 at 2014 11:52 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:52:43 -0400

Crying is a response to an event or incident in line, and it is perfectly fine. In addition, crying for what does matter depending on one's level of maturity. Maybe some of you have heard the phrase, "crying over spilt milk". If a soldier actually physically cries because he or she is told their four day pass has been cancelled due to having to replace another soldier on funeral detail due to a death in their family I will say they are immature, selfish and yes, they are crying over spilt milk. If a soldier is informed by their own Commander and 1SG their mother has passed away while deployed and they instantly start crying while in uniform but in private with their CoC, sure that is perfectly acceptable and expected so no admonishment from me.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Apr 14 at 2014 12:23 AM

1SG Frank Rocha — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 00:23:34 -0400

I am having trouble with the connotation of your question but if you are referring to crying in general I would have to disagree partially. While crying for good reason is perfectly fine, crying to gain sympathy or get your way is not. That said I have not seen many cry for the wrong reason. I have seen a few cry, from all branches mind you, for the right reason. The most stoic and even tempered person I ever knew was my father. I never saw him cry or even attempt to shed a tear except when I went overseas the first time, he wasn't balling mind you it was only the wet eyes but he put his hand on the bus window and followed it for a second then waived as the bus drove off. I am not as good at holding it in as he was. When he died my face was wet almost constantly. I am not unprofessional nor do I consider anyone else unprofessional for reacting similarly to a like situation.

When I was in college I took a theater arts class. One of the topics covered was something called "method acting" in which an actor would draw on past experiences to create the thoughts and emotions they feel is relevant to the character they are portraying. Using this same practice to portray emotion to gain sympathy or favoritism when no emotion is warranted is not okay, its deceptive and dishonest.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 2:09 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 02:09:32 -0400

There is times were crying in Uniform would be considered unprofessional. Such as general conversation our providing professional guidance. However at funerals and memorials it is completely acceptable to me for tears to show.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 3:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 03:17:49 -0400

I have been pushed to such anger where tears flowed a bit, but I left the situation I was in and regained my composure.  Most of the time when something has brought tears to my eyes, its been at a memorial for a friend, or when I saw something so outrageous (Good or bad) that I couldnt control it.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 4:15 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 04:15:58 -0400

memorials and funerals, I've busted a few tears but secured them off my face immediately

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 14 at 2014 12:03 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:03:37 -0400

Like others have said, having more context to respond to would be great but let me say this. Crying or just showing any sort of emotion is never a a bad thing. We are human after all. We do however need to understand the difference between the appropriate behaviors and show of emotion one might have.

For example; your leave is denied due to an upcoming last minute FTX, do you whine and cry or just take it as it is and carry on?

Another example is you are attending the memorial service for one of your battle buddies; you let lose and face is covered in tears. To me, this is not unprofessional, this is being human.

Kids are a great example of not knowing when to control their behavior and when to use the right amount of emotion. This past weekend I took my kids to a local fair. We played a game and my daughter won but my son lost. They both knew going into the game, there is a chance neither would win and I reminded them that falling on the ground and acting the fool would not be a good response. After the game and after my daughter collected her prize, you could see my son was upset and for a 9 year old I think that is an okay response but what you didn't see him do was break down and throw himself on the ground and start kicking and screaming. Instead he was happy that his sister won the prize and we continued to have a great day.

I think we have all seen those in the military kick and scream when upset. That to me is unprofessional. It's okay to be upset or angry but keep it in check and use your adult mind to control your response appropriately.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Apr 14 at 2014 12:51 PM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:51:34 -0400

I think the question is too broad. Emotion has everything to do with being a professional. If we were robots we wouldn't need to be professionals.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 14 at 2014 7:09 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:09:23 -0400

Mr Cool only lasts so long, I remember being ashamed about crying while sitting between the bunks on Sunday when the CC made us sit between the bunks and write a letter home, Looked up and saw 60 other guys crying. Ain't but a thing. Also lost Shipmates, Hell I'm an Old Softy some songs make me cry. Doesn't make me less of a man, Think it makes me more of one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 7:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:24:55 -0400

SFC Stevens,

I notice that you wrote this in one of the comments:

"My issue is with Soldiers that you are giving counseling statements

because they failed doing their job and I am trying to make them

better Soldiers and they just break down with tears like their life is

over. That is very manipulative and I find it to be very unprofessional."

In that scenario, I agree that crying in response to a counseling statement is unprofessional. Maybe the Soldier is just overly emotional or stressed out due to personal issues, or maybe the Soldier is deliberately trying to manipulate you. In any case, I would tell the Soldier to take a few minutes to regain their military bearing, leave the room for a few minutes, and then come back and start over.

Response by SSG Shannon Howe made Apr 14 at 2014 9:58 PM

SSG Shannon Howe — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:58:49 -0400

After reading some of the comments on this thread, I understand what the OP is saying. But keep in mind that just because someone is crying does not necessarily mean they are trying to manipulate you. Tears are simply a physical reaction to pain and/or stress, whether physical, mental or emotional. Just as there are those who are physically stronger than others, so there are those who are emotionally stronger than others. Again, it does not mean they are purposely trying to manipulate anyone. Perhaps there were other issues at play in those situations? Maybe the reason those individuals got in trouble was due to personal problems and their misconduct was an unfortunate byproduct of that? It's easy to play the "hard @$$" NCO and yell and curse and sign a counseling...it takes a lot of courage and understanding to try to dig deeper and find out what's really going on. Just my .02!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 10:14 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:14:32 -0400

I have cried lost a lot of friends and Soldiers and not ashamed to say it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 8:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:50:41 -0400

Its just an emotion, just cause it's not a cool one like cusing out load (my favorite), don't mean its not legit.

I cry for at least 2 hrs before work everyday.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 8:51 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:51:32 -0400

If this is a common occurence with your Soldiers then it might not be your Soldiers?!?!?! I can say that I have only had one Soldier cry when I was attempting to professionally develop him. He came to me very lost in his own world and I got to know him and where he came from and that he never felt much love form his dad who had spent most of his life in prison. For that reason his most was his bed rock and taught him everything he knew about life. He was starting to make great progress abd was doing well as a young Soldier. Right about the time he was about to get promoted to SPC he came up hot on a urinalysis. So me being the 1SG at the time brought him in again to talk to him and see what was going on. He tried to feed me some excuse of "I didn't know what it was" we talked and he finally admitted that he knew what he was doing. So I said OK we have one thing left to do, and that is for you to call your mom and tell her what is going on. He cried like a baby but found the courage to tell her.

Morale of the story: Know your Soldiers, they may not be just trying to manipulte you, but may have "skeletons in their closet" that you don't know about. And by the way he is a SSG now.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 9:57 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:57:27 -0400

The eyes are the opening to your soul!  To cry without reason is a mental disorder, to cry for compassion and love is a term of feelings that you have lost or loosing!  A friend to disease, a loved one or a brother or sister to war, a tragedy caused by hate, all cleanse the soul and you can continue the grief process. Crying is not unprofessional it is a release of feeling in the waters of life.  A man who doesn't cry has no soul or feeling and is dangerous.  To cry and continue a duty is strength and courage.  I have cried many times to release the tension and anger and hurt of lost friends, rights, The National Anthem, Taps, The sight of the Flag on a Wendy Blue Sky Day.  I cried at the death of friends and a son.  I cried for my Parents and my older Brother who died.  This world is a part of me and I am a part of it.  To cry for its recovery and diminish the hate anger and war is righteous and sane!  Bring God back into everything You do, then the tears of joy are a cleansing refreshing start to a Brave new World!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 11:37 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:37:57 -0400

Okay... With all due respect, SFC, there are soldiers, that act like a DA Form 4856 is like the PINK SLIP you get in the civilian world, when in all reality, it's not. But, Crying in the military should not be a problem to anyone, specially if you are a human being, not a machine. As a human being, I would honestly ask you to not lose track of your humanity. We all bleed red, SFC. I am not undermining your authority, nor your position. But, I would definitely treat my soldiers like I would like to be treated, specially, when I know I will cry my share of tears. Now, there are some serious manipulators out there, I admit. But, this kind, I walk around their manupulative games, and set them straight, from the beginning. I have had my share of knuckleheads, and I am also a family man... I would hate it, if some jughead mistreated my children, US Armed Forces, or not.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Apr 16 at 2014 10:45 AM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:45:33 -0400

SFC S.

As the Company Commander of a Female Company I was taken aback the first time a Sailor cried during an ass chewing. If you are talking about something like this, well it is just the difference in the way SOME women and even a few men react to being confronted. Individuals react in different ways to situations that seem straightforward to others. Some cuss, some cry, some withdraw and all are, or should be acceptable responses.

You might need to broaden your horizons as to what to expect when dealing with people. When they cry, push over a box of tissues and go on with your part of the job as if nothing else is happening. They may or may not continue crying, but you can ignore it and do your job as a professional and both of you will gain from the experience .

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Apr 16 at 2014 1:17 PM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:17:26 -0400

I've cried for my fellow service members many times. While I was deployed, I attended many fallen comrade ceremonies (sometimes more than 1 in a day) and it was difficult, at best, not too when I thought about their families!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 9:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:14:16 -0400

I cry when I'm beyond pissed. Totally unprofessional.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 9:43 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:43:04 -0400

Wow, that is pretty impressive. I think I cried when I recycled mountains but I am not sure it was a dream or not. It was all a blur of pain and suck. I think it does show an extreme lack of unprofessionalism. If it were a NCO I think I would counsel them again for a lack of professionalism.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 7 at 2014 9:45 PM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:45:51 -0400

I remember just after returning from the first Gulf war we hadn't lost a single man in my Battalion, and the day after returning one of our soldiers was killed in a drunk driving accident (he wasn't the driver). We had a memorial service at the Battalion chapel where I watched our Battalion Commander sob like he had just lost a child...and I suppose in a way, he did. As it happens, he was/is the man I respected most of every officer I ever served under, and if anything, that day only added to that respect.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 10:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 22:27:04 -0400

Crying is a natural human response. I know that we are trained to be tuff soldiers, but the fact is that we are all still human and we all have emotions. Some more than others. Should we cry over a counseling? No. Take it as a learning experience and change for the better.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Oct 8 at 2014 1:53 AM

Cpl Chris Rice — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 01:53:23 -0400

Physical action of tears is not voluntary, and shows a deeply emotional response. It could be that they take the information you are giving with more importance than you do. I would like to know that I had Marines that thought the world was over when they failed to do their jobs, because it very well could be the end of the world for somebody down the line, and I would rather deal with a crying Marine over something petty then a crying wife or mother over something real.

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Oct 8 at 2014 3:21 AM

PO3 Shaun Taylor — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 03:21:36 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Unless the person is intentionally trying to manipulate you I seriously doubt that they wanted you to see them cry. Especially after you're already counseling them for what you view as failure to perform their job. Do you really think they want to give you another reason to view them in a negative light? Most people regardless of the situation do not want their boss to see them cry.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 8 at 2014 10:17 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 10:17:42 -0400

I believe that there are times and places where a man crying is perfectly acceptable, however, crying in a counseling sessions does not seem to be one, to me.

Crying is an involuntary act that is triggered by emotions. While men have been expected to stifle the emotion of crying throughout history, it has become more acceptable in current times. The bible is replete with stories in which people are weeping and a very famous verse states simply "Jesus wept".

A friend of mine and I had a similar discussion about this some time ago, when my team (Alabama Crimson Tide) defeated the Florida Gators. The TV sports coverage made a big deal of Tim Tebow crying on the sidelines, as he saw his team, and their chance at a National Championship, go down in flames. They were insinuating that he was, somehow, less of a man because he was crying. I disagreed and stated that he had put his whole heart and soul into that game and the loss was just too much for him to bear at that time.

My friend sent me something he had seen, to back up his point that Tebow should not have cried because of the loss. I have pasted it below (sorry that I can't attribute it to the source, as I do not have that information). I think that it covers the discussion very well. Whetehr you agree with it or not, I think it provides food for thought.

When It’s OK For a Man to Cry

1. The death of a loved one. There are few things more painful than the thought of separation from those dearest to our hearts.

2. The death of your beloved pet. A pet can feel like a member of the family. Whether a horse or dog, the bond between a man and his faithful animal runs deep.

3. When you first see the new life you and your wife created. Many a man has found himself choked up as they cradle their newborn son or daughter.

4. When you propose to the love of your life and she says yes. This should be one of the happiest days of your life. You found your best friend.

5. At the altar as you get married. Everyone in attendance loves to see the husband-to-be get a little misty-eyed as his blushing bride walks down the aisle.

6. When your beloved car or truck, especially your first one, gets totaled. There’s a bond between a man and his wheels that when severed, can really sting.

7. Visiting sites that pay tribute to those who laid down their lives for others. Whether running your fingers over the names at the Vietnam War Memorial or watching the oil leak from the sunk USS Arizona, contemplating the sacrifices made by your fellowman should make you tear up.

8. Describing a really spiritual experience. Feeling touched by a higher power can be really affecting.

9. As an athlete, after the final game/match/event that you will ever play in. You’ll never be in as good shape again. You’ll never experience this level of camaraderie again. You’ll never push yourself so hard every day. Go on and let it out.

10. While watching any of the following movies:
• Field of Dreams
• Brian’s Song
• Shawshank Redemption
• The Pride of the Yankees
• Old Yeller
• Iron Giant
• Life is Beautiful
• Saving Private Ryan
• Rudy
• Braveheart
• Dead Poets Society
• Friday Night Lights
• We Were Soldiers
• Gladiator
• Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
• The Champ
• Glory
• It’s a Wonderful Life

When It’s Not Okay For a Man to Cry

1. When your favorite sports team loses. I get really into sports. But crying when men who don’t know you from Adam lose a game means you’ve got way too much invested.

2. When those around you are looking to you as a source of calmness and strength. Sometimes your loved ones need you to be a rock.

3. To the point of irrational thinking or paralysis when you have a job to do. I wanted to strangle Upham in Saving Private Ryan when he cried in the stairwell while his fellow soldier was being killed. When you have a job to do, get it together.

4. When you don’t get your way. Little boys cry when they don’t get what they want. Men are disappointed, but resilient.

5. When you’re frustrated. Crying because your overwhelmed and don’t know what to do is a cop out. You don’t have the strength to think of a solution, so you cry so you don’t have to think at all. Man up and figure out your next move.

6. In baseball. There’s no crying in baseball!

7. During any of the following movies:
• Beaches
• Steel Magnolias
• Little Women
• Jerry Maguire
• The Notebook
• Ghost

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 8 at 2014 10:46 AM

SSG Maurice P. — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 10:46:49 -0400

I can not watch one of my favorite movies of all time without crying everytime hehehehehehehe.
The 1959 movie Ben-HUR the scenes between ben-hur and his woman and his mom and sister and jesus...i always loose it hehehehehehe

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 8 at 2014 10:52 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 10:52:52 -0400

Manipulative? Maybe. Or maybe it's a sign that someone has reached the end of their rope and is finally showing signs of stress getting to them. IMHO, it is a poor leadership to casually dismiss something like "crying" as unprofessional and manipulative when it may be actually an ominous sign of a Soldier who may be reaching the "danger zone". Everyone has a breaking point, and not everyone displays the same warning signs. As leaders, it is our job to ensure subordinates carry out their duties, but it is also our job to ensure the well being of our people. Just because someone starts crying during an ass-chewing, doesn't mean it's them trying to manipulate you. Maybe there's more going on. Just something to think about.......

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Oct 8 at 2014 11:02 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 11:02:22 -0400

Live TAPS takes it from me while standing at the position of attention every time, never have I wiped them away. Somehow during every Memorial service I also let a few go. Now to the update where you break it down and say while correcting a behavior or counseling. I too have incurred this issue as a NCO and Officer. The fact that if there are underlying issues that create the action/inaction for the counseling got so bad, then obviously we should have been paying attention to the Soldier or they should have informed us of impending concern or trouble. Trust in the Profession of Arms is imperative and subordinate trust in us as leaders is a must or they will NOT turn to us in crisis.

The counseling I gave was to a Soldier who would not rappel off the tower during a qualifying school event for the military police. They cried on the tower and during counseling. Of course in my counseling, it resulted in a EO complaint towards me. I still do not regret the counseling and did it rather well, but the fact remains, the Soldier used it in attempt of seeking compassion. It didn't work, therefore the EO complaint.

The setting and situation is where the lines are here in the replies here. For instance if you make an on the spot and while doing so the Officer/NCO/Servicemember starts to cry cause you called them out......not professional, pain for a fallen comrade in arms.....honorable.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 11:04 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 11:04:13 -0400

I have no issue with military folks crying. Shows a human side. Seen it and done it. It is natural especially @ a funeral, memorial service, dealing with the loss of a comrade..Even have seen it happen at a change of command.

Crying when being counseled for non-performance is either a tactic or a sign of perhaps an underlying issue.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 11:18 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 11:18:12 -0400

I think that it would depend upon the situation that called for the counseling. I would sit the soldier down and ask them why they are crying, and what is wrong. I used to have a soldier who would cry every time they went in front of a board, be it a mock board or a real board. The soldier just felt like there was too much pressure to succeed.

I can think of a few times where I was counseled and I thought that maybe crying would get me out of it, or making something up, but I sided with doing the right thing, that's not to say that your soldier is doing something wrong though.

The point is that we are all different, and even though the military wants us to believe that we aren't we are all individuals, and deal with stressors differently.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Oct 8 at 2014 11:48 AM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 11:48:18 -0400

If you are unable/unwilling to EVER cry in a military setting, I as a person with a background in psychology suggest that you schedule an appointment with your local mental health professional.

Now, as for someone turning on the waterworks because they are in trouble? Well, I've seen this many times in my civilian career as a teacher. Just maintain a professional demeanor, show empathy as appropriate, and drive on. If they are legitimately upset at the correction, then they will appreciate the appropriate empathy. If they are trying to gain sympathy, your professional demeanor will discourage further attempts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 6:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 18:05:41 -0400

To be fair, I've witnessed this first hand.

Of course, I've also seen toxic leadership where a single issue that deserved a 4856 was treated as grounds to either flag the Soldier, or put them on shit details, or otherwise fuck with them in non-professional-development ways, because Counseling was treated as a Scarlet C.

Crying is also a clear example of how personal or direct a Soldier is taking the experience... which means you're in a more powerful position to enforce change and motivate. But if the leader shuts down because "oh, PFC Snuffy is crying, they clearly don't care about growing up" then you're now failing them twice: (1) you're establishing a -personality conflict-, and (2) you're treating them as untrainable.

Just my .02.

Response by SSG Lawrence Crow made Oct 8 at 2014 11:31 PM

SSG Lawrence Crow — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:31:44 -0400

Crying during a counseling session, yeah, it's a kind of manipulation. However, crying in and of itself is not a bad thing. It is a release that you need from time to time. However, if I ever get MAD enought to CRY, RUN, RUN HARD, RUN FAST, and then RUN SOME MORE!

Response by MAJ Jon Hyjek made Oct 9 at 2014 5:56 PM

MAJ Jon Hyjek — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 17:56:51 -0400

Concur

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 1:09 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 01:09:46 -0400

I cry out of frustration. When I'm enraged about something I cannot change, I have a great crying session in the bathroom. Its similar to a toddler temper tantrum. But 5-10 mins later I feel much much better and in control and I can handle anything that comes my way. I think crying looks unprofessional when it happens during a counseling about poor performance. I've done it before (out of frustration) and I couldn't help it nor stand it. Some people can't help but to cry. However, I do think it can be manipulative whether its meant to be or not.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 4:32 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:32:13 -0400

Ok... Those troops, I have seen, in flesh and blood... and they burn my air thin. I don't like that. I have cried my tears, in front of my NCOs, or my 1SG, because I knew I messed up, and really needed to clean up my act, or... I was in dire physical pain, or, I was so frustrated, that I expressed in only one way... crying. But, never did that theatrical mess. I hate that kind of conduct. What I have seen out of most of these jugheads, is that they cry to you... then, they turn around, and say "they are so stupid, I got them feeding off my hand". But, we also have to look at some leaders, today, who think that the Army, is so hard, that humiliates people. NOT THIS MAN'S ARMY!

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Oct 11 at 2014 5:40 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:40:52 -0400

When I was much, much younger, I cried during a counseling. It was not in an effort to manipulate my supervisor in anyway. It was purely out of frustration because at the time, I thought he was being a jerk and I felt I had no recourse or say in the matter. In fact I did everything in my power to fight the tears, which only made it worse. I actually was so angry with myself for losing it, that I swore I would never let any supervisor ever see me cry again. I have upheld that personal policy.

As a someone who had to give counselings later in my career, I did have a couple of times where a soldier cried during a counseling. I learned to keep Kleenax on my desk, but if I knew they were trying to manipulate the situation, I would quietly but firmly hold my position and not allow them to use their tears as a defense.

Response by SGT Aja Johnson made Oct 12 at 2014 1:25 AM

SGT Aja Johnson — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 01:25:31 -0400

Some people are just more emotionally inclined than others. Contrary to popular belief, the Army doesn't brainwash us into being emotionless robots. Should a Soldier maintain their military bearing? Yes, they should. Should they be considered unprofessional because they are disappointed and start to cry? No. Some people cry and some people just get pissed off.

I do think there are soldiers that might manipulate the situation by crying but some are just legitimately saddened by an ass chewing. What IS unprofessional is if that leader allows this to change course in the counseling process. As my NCOIC says; "Ass grows back". As a reminder that it's not the end of the world. It is a leader's job to look at that soldier and tell them exactly that: "Ass grows back".

Response by SPC Dave St.Andrew made Oct 12 at 2014 11:42 PM

SPC Dave St.Andrew — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:42:02 -0400

I cried like a baby after I loaded five of my brothers that were KIA and 4 more wounded, still regret not wearing dark eye pro that day. Cried when my COC came to admit into the mental health ward after coming back from that deployment when I couldn't get my head right because of it. Am I ashamed? No. Would I be ashamed of trying to cry my way out of a counseling? Yes.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 2:39 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 02:39:19 -0400

Situational. I have not been in combat but with such spikes in emotion and chemicals in the bodies it isn't uncommon after.

Another LT broke down crying with the company commander, "having a panic attack" because he didn't like being yelled at? Unacceptable, especially as a combat arms officer. It was garrison, not exactly people shooting at you and dying. He was relieved.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 1:41 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:41:26 -0400

There's no crying in baseball. In all seriousness, most people cannot control certain emotions so they begin to tear up. Showing emotions can also be a good thing and also shows empathy

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Nov 7 at 2014 5:55 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 05:55:30 -0500

Only if you're in severe pain (eg broken leg). Otherwise, suck it up, buttercup

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 11:01 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 11:01:32 -0500

Over a counseling statement? Suck it up buttercup! There's no crying when you are supposed to do your job. That would be like me crying if I got a poor performance appraisal.

But at a funeral and loss of a fellow soldier and colleague, I'd say you are f-ing entitled. Especially if lost in combat. Grief is a natural process and you need an outlet for your emotions.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 7 at 2014 12:31 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:31:30 -0500

You are placing them under stress with the counseling. There is a good chance that the reason you are giving them a counseling is the result of other stressors in their life. For example, 3rd time this month the Soldier has arrived late to formation, their child is not sleeping, their wife is dealing with post partum depression, and the car needs a tune-up the Soldier can't afford. They are now recognized in that he's getting a negative counseling despite his every attempt to do the right thing.I am not suggesting you take it easy on them or waiver in your purpose, but you must understand that all Soldiers are not created equal, nor are their situations. This is where you need to be a leader. This may very well be the first time you've been made aware of the full extent of their personal situation, and they need your help.
So, are you going to help him find a solution? or kick him out?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 12:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:48:48 -0500

Manipulation of any form is unprofessional (soft or firm). Soldiers or rather warriors who take their profession seriously may break down and cry out of disappointment on themselves. Samurai warriors used to perform Seppuku on themselves when they fail (that was a result of a bad OER/NCOER per say). I hear a lot of whining about the direction the Army is going and that is also a discrete way of "crying". Leaders are apt to change; especially when the change is in the course of preventing the number one killer of our troops; suicide. I do agree that there are some manipulative tears out there but a competent leader must be able to deal with them professionally as well able to counsel warriors who may just be hard on themselves. Wasn't it General George S. Patton who was relived of his command because of a lack of empathy on a crying Private? I think the conceptual "balanced" approach is part of the solution here.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 1:04 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 13:04:12 -0500

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, I agree with you completely about crying in a counseling session. It's very manipulative.

I would sometimes cry at particularly touching moments - usually when swelling with patriotic pride over this or that and feeling so darned blessed and proud to be an American - but I hid it (the crying) for the most part when I was on active duty.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 7 at 2014 2:10 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 14:10:05 -0500

I disagree. I cried when every one of our people were KIA and I never felt ashamed. To this day, I can't make it through Amazing Grace on the bagpipes. That beautiful song has been forever associates with death and the CAV.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 5:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 17:19:57 -0500

Everyone has a breaking point. If you fail to learn it, you've failed I be an effective leader. Look, I used to be a hard ass. I've learned, with much time and counsel, finding the root cause is better than judging too quick. I've lost it. Got the boots to prove it. Blood filled. I won't judge you on your leadership style. But I was a SFC with over 4 years TIG before I learned that everyone isn't as tough as wood pecker lips. Don't make the same mistakes I did. Talk to your soldiers. Any soldier. Trust me. They will react better and respect you more than the four letter motivational words I used to throw at em.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 5:37 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 17:37:51 -0500

Because counseling statements make better soldiers... Sgt you're better off smoking them. Throw the paperwork away
Very respectfully
Pfc Pal

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Nov 7 at 2014 11:02 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 23:02:46 -0500

I dont know what the term crying refers to here, if its meant as whining about something you didnt like, or crying out of emotional or physical pain, if its whining I would say the whole situation needed to be looked at, I was told I was whining when I went to Jag about members of my chain stealing my Ta -50 and then trying to force me to have to buy it all back, my whining landed criminals in jail and removed non deserving NCO's from the Army.when I laid there on the ground beside my tracked vehicle with a dislocated jaw, smashed nose, punctured lung, 5 broken ribs, 4 crushed vertebrate that impacted the L-5 nerve, a destroyed hip, torn off ham string, broken knee , dislocated elbow, smashed shoulder and dislocated ankle I cried like a baby. I also cried like a baby when my dog (baby) of 12 years passed. I wont ever say a person is Whining until I know the entire situation and I will never judge a person for crying as we all have different pain levels and we all have feelings, being a man doesnt mean you dont cry, being a man means you arent afraid to show emotions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 9:39 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 09:39:31 -0500

I think we all understand that people will break down and cry during serious life issues and crisis like losing comrades, a Soldier going thru a divorce etc. To get at my understanding of the question, there is an important nuance to why are they crying in counseling. If it's to get pity or try to make the counselor go lighter, that's totally unacceptable. In most cases, I've seen Soldiers cry when they're told that they're underachievers or that they messed up because nobody has been frank with them before and it makes them take the hard look at themselves that they never have. Our society is full of winners but our military needs to be grounded in reality. Tough adjustment for some.

Response by CW2 Pamela (Carpenter) Wolf made Nov 8 at 2014 1:39 PM

CW2 Pamela (Carpenter) Wolf — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 13:39:06 -0500

It's the reason for the tears that makes the difference. I am called fearless by many colleagues and friends, and I willed myself to never cry, not even once during the Army's year-long flight school where harassment was freely heaped upon women in those early days of females being allowed in (1977). However, I am moved every time the National Anthem is played at a ball park or taps is played at a funeral, every time I am in a military cemetery, and every time I see a wounded or paraplegic soldier or veteran, especially when I consider the why and what they gave up for their country. I can freely admit to shedding a tear over these situations because it strikes at my heart and my patriotism. Veterans Day is upon us, a very special time to thank our Veterans everywhere.

Response by SGT Graham "Tom" Town made Nov 8 at 2014 10:12 PM

SGT Graham "Tom" Town — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 22:12:48 -0500

I never cried when I was young; and I agree that under the circumstances you state crying is not a professional response.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 11:45 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 23:45:06 -0500

Every person is multidimensional and it is ok to be emotional when there are so many events happening in one's life that may affect job performance. No one wakes up in the morning wanting to be bad at their job or to perform poorly. When a member is being counseled, they have an opportunity to respond during the one-on-one or to submit a written rebuttal. I wouldn't feel it is unprofessional if someone broke down and cried. They may have had someone pass away, or are fighting an illness, or having financial struggles, facing a divorce, etc. I've broken down in front of my CC after so many demands were put on me prior to deploying. I literally worked until the day I deployed and was packing only 2 hrs before my flight, which I almost missed. It is all about developing and taking care of our Airmen in the AF; I'd rather they let off some steam and cry in private than have them flip out in the workplace or break down.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 11:53 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 23:53:25 -0500

I think you need to take into consideration the service member's experience before you berate them for un-professionalism due to a counseling statement.

An 18 or 19 year old who hasn't been out of boot camp long and really hasn't learned the ropes at his or her new command yet isn't really a "professional" yet. They still need to be mentored and guided. If they cry because they screwed up - okay, suck it up - but cut them a little bit of slack.

Some people (raises hand) are naturally more sensitive than others. I get emotional very easily over good things, and bad things. I struggled a great deal while I was in the service to keep a poker face when I wanted to break down. Even now, it's something it's something I have to work very very hard at in certain situations. I know that about myself: I am a naturally emotional person. It doesn't have anything to do with my performance, but sometimes tears come a little too easily and I have to fight to keep them under control.

Response by SGT Carl Andersen made Nov 9 at 2014 7:28 AM

SGT Carl Andersen — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 07:28:50 -0500

Crying do to a negative counseling is a result of the slack basic training that is now happening. I understand crying at a funeral or from loss of fellow soldier or loved one, but from a negative counseling, pull up your boot straps and soldier on.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 10 at 2014 1:39 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 13:39:13 -0500

When I was in Afghanistan, and returned from a mission of hunting an attacker who just attacked our FOB, our platoon sergeant pulled everyone to the side told us that one of our own was KIA from incoming. I turned around and walk away. A few moments later he found me behind our hooch and I was sitting with my head down. He walked up to me and asked if I was alright. I starting crying a lot. He told me to get up and he gave me a big hug and told me it was okay to cry. Even typing about it now is hard to do as it brings back bad memories. What had hurt me the most is that he might have killed himself. So crying I think is fine and healthy. I don't think my NCOER is going to somewhere read, "failed to maintain military bearing; cried in front the platoon sergeant".

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 12 at 2014 9:42 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 12 Nov 2014 21:42:24 -0500

I think SFC Stevens explained himself well enough and he has a valid point about Soldiers who use crying to get their way. He also realizes when Soldiers cry in front of other due to over whelming grief over the death of a battle buddy. Please remove the thumbs down.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 4:57 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Nov 2014 16:57:53 -0500

First, if you are counseling, you already know that you expect your troop to express some kind of emotion. Expressions of emotions vary from one to another, and crying does not always mean manipulation or weakness, or realization he/she screwed up. But it can be also be a sign of anger. Anger over the "perceived" injustice over application of standards, or counseling.

As a leader, we are trained to expect all possible responses to counseling, the same way we need to control our emotional bias toward the person. Progressive discipline is all about correction, and improving the person. If you are judging one as manipulative, will you be likely to give this person a fair judgment and see improvements objectively?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 11:38 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 11:38:29 -0500

in reference to your situation in the counseling session, they may be expressing how ashamed they are on what they failed to do, its up to you as a leader to take that or not take that in consideration on further actions. I counseled a female Soldier a few years back because of weight control and being put in the weight control program and she began crying, I gave her time to cry and continued on with the session. She expressed to me that I failed her as a leader and other things and that's why she was in this situation, what I really really wanted to say was "did I force the damn cheeseburgers down your mouth?" but I kept my professionalism (pat myself in the back) and stuck with the black and white on that one. Crying shouldn't be an issue unless you individually make it an issue. I think the title to your discussion is misleading to what you wrote further down. A lot of people are expressing this as in a memorial service or funeral, which I don't think that's what you meant.

Response by SFC Raymond Cannell made Dec 27 at 2014 4:33 PM

SFC Raymond Cannell — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 16:33:38 -0500

I fully agree. Soldiers expect us senior NCOs to coddle and baby them as if they were children. They accept no responsabilty for ther actions and are quick to blame leadership when they as an individual fail in something.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 6:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 18:32:50 -0500

There's no crying in the military!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 2:17 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 02:17:45 -0500

stated issue-tears over a negative counseling are "very manipulative" and "very unprofessional" ...I agree with many of the posts that this is extremely dependent on the individual, the environment and the delivery.

I have had one soldier in nearly 25 yrs cry on me to be "manipulative" but I knew that she had used this as a technique to get over on her squad leader and platoon sergeant, so I just waited a few moments and asked if I needed to repeat myself. She never tried it again.

I have had numerous soldiers cry in counseling and when asked why they were crying found out there were extraordinary circumstances that no one had bothered to "discover" impeding their ability to remedy their situation and they needed help but had been too ashamed or prideful to ask for help.

I have been on the other side of the desk also: 28 yrs ago a COL brought me in for a follow up counseling to tell me he was going to remove me from the program and prevent my commission because I DID NOT cry in the first butt chewing, then I did end up with tears streaming down my face from fury as I asked if he relieved all his cadets for not wailing on his rug when he counseled them and wondered if just because I was a "giiirrl" crying was expected. He thought about it a moment, blustered a bit, and then dismissed me.

last thought...had a very wise counselor once tell me "you DO NOT CONTROL how the others in the room respond to your tears." If the tears are not MEANT to be manipulative and the counselor decides to take them that way, an opportunity to connect with that individual could be lost.

Generation Y is different from the rest of us and most (not all) are not prepared to be held accountable for their actions or inactions. From my research (and experience) many do not even know what is professional and what is not......that said, one way to "teach" good soldiers (ones you know failed but are willing to take responsibility and fight forward) who have a few tears roll down their face during negative counseling and get more pissed at themselves when that happens so that it continues is to stop a second, hand them a tissue or push over the Kleenex, leave the room if possible for about 4-5 min., return and finish the first order of business and then address the crying...

A method-- teach them to start doing math in their head at the first tightening of their sinuses that signals tears are starting, times tables, adding 3-4 digit numerals, division etc....this causes the right side (emotion housing) of the brain to switch over to the left side (more logic oriented) of the brain.

Another method more for meetings and less formal situations---when one starts tearing up, excuse yourself for a "latrine/head call" or if in charge call for a break

This will allow them to maintain the expected "military bearing" of a professional and to "save face."

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Dec 28 at 2014 9:45 AM

SGT Drue Rockwell — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 09:45:53 -0500

As the original question has been edited to reflect the original intent, my answer is thus: In cases of pain and heartache from losing someone, I support crying. In ceremony, we have to maintain ceremonial composure and military bearing. However, in cases such as when counseling or regular dealings, barring a divorce at home or a soldier who just lost their child, it is highly unprofessional and while I won't punish a soldier for crying, it does not change the verdict of their punishment and I lose respect for those who can't keep their shit together. (For those unable to stomach the language: those who cannot manage their emotions and responsibilities properly and maturely)

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 1:29 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:29:48 -0500

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Are you serious? I'd totally lose my bearing and would have to give myself a time out...the thought that comes to mind, 100 push-ups for every tear the leaves the tear duct. Lol

Response by SGT Jonathan Williams made Dec 28 at 2014 1:38 PM

SGT Jonathan Williams — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:38:01 -0500

Where is the original post? Did you remove it when you edited it? I'm looking for context to match the responses I see.

If you are looking for Soldiers to be robots, and attribute every instance of tears to be manipulation, you sir need to step back and look at yourself and the world. Perhaps maybe change your technique if you are finding that you are causing more than one Soldier to lose composure. The problem may be the common denominator.

I don't routinely down vote, but in this case I have for the reasons candidly made above.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 1:51 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:51:04 -0500

Crying over a counseling statement folks, let's stick to the facts...not crying because your buddy died, your dog died or half your battalion has the H1N1...many of the replies took his question WAY out of context, however it could of been a bit more refined...come one, is it necessary with the snarky comments?

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Dec 28 at 2014 3:03 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:03:08 -0500

SFC Stevens... While I understand your position and some of the fakery you elude too I would submit that not all tears of this type are false... Nor even unprofessional. I've had serious counseling with soldiers and civilians that resulted in tears on their part. These were significant emotional experiences and I meant them to be due to there seriousness... Sometimes performance and or conduct are so poor... Safety is a great example... That you pull out the MCM or OPM regulations and so them what can/will happen. Sometimes... It the first time they been told they were "lacking". On many occasions those soldiers and civilians took what was said... And began to perform. I also discovered some underlying challenges that I could help with... That just served to better build the team. My 2 cents

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 3:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:06:28 -0500

There is a time and a place to cry....if it's over a counseling statement then good lord, go cry to your peers about it and not in front of me...I have only given out well deserved counselings with justified proof so they can't pull the BS of thinking it was a bogus call. I have been cried at over counselings and to me, it is unprofessional. You f'd up, take the ass chewing like a grown adult, learn from it, be a better person from it and move on. Done.
Crying over fallen soldiers - legit. Totally different playing field. I've been to too many services overseas where there want a dry eye in the place....

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 28 at 2014 4:46 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:46:01 -0500

The first thumbs down i was ready to award as earned.

Then I read past the post title/....LOL

I read the title and wrongly thought ... really... come stand in my boots... and see the things I have seen.... stood next to the family members and fellow soldiers I have, trying to come to grips with loss and suffering of a loved one.. and then fault me for tears .... I DARE YOU.....

LOL and then i see your talking about counseling sessions ....lol.. Disregard....

And even then it just depends.....I would have to have context, background, history before i could agree to your points, even for a simple counseling session.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 10:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 22:03:43 -0500

While there are a bunch of response and I have read most of them, I haven't seen a way mentioned to correct the problem. The majority of the time, crying is an involuntary response to a situation. I cry when I get angry - REALLY angry. I also know how to stop it. Drink something. It works. Whenever I have a Soldier that I need to counsel and I am pretty sure they are going to cry, I have a bottle of water and hand it to them when they start. It is physiologically impossible to cry and swallow at the same time and THAT is how you solve the problem of the criers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2014 11:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:12:23 -0500

Your taking a beating here MSG Private RallyPoint Member, but I agree with you on your updated post. To have to listen to excusesand crying from a soldier over poor job performance is ridiculous. It's obvious that they are more upset about bring called out and it being documented and don't want it to hurry their future.

That being said, the counseled
counselor may overcome this and Charlie Mike.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made Dec 29 at 2014 1:53 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:53:25 -0500

Yes it is unprofessional. This isn't the profession to break down and cry over corrective criticism.

But I also wonder how you may be approaching your Soldiers if you're having issues with them crying.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2014 2:19 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:19:44 -0500

Just a different take on this issue...

I believe that if someone is crying because of counseling or a bad review that it may be worth taking the individual aside to find out if there is something else going on. I think it can be argued that they are at a breaking point in their life that the LOC, LOR or bad review was the straw that broke the camels back.

It is the responsibility of NCOs and SCNOs to ensure the readiness of those who they are tasked to lead. That includes emotional well being. If they are not emotionally well, it is the responsibility of the NCOS or SNCO to ensure that their subordinate(s) seek the counseling they need in order to meet readiness standards.

Edit: That's not to say that a subordinate's reactions should change the review or counseling being given. It could, however, provide valuable insight into why that subordinate is getting this bad review or counseling in the first place and may provide a launching point for getting that person back on track.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2014 6:11 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 18:11:58 -0500

I cry when people substitute there for their in their sentences.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Dec 29 at 2014 10:56 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 22:56:14 -0500

I cried once in uniform. It was at the chow hall. I spilled my milk.

Response by SFC Aaron Finley made Dec 29 at 2014 11:25 PM

SFC Aaron Finley — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 23:25:05 -0500

A successful counselor is not absent EMPATHY, counsel the Soldier then get him/her to a another leader, a Chap or Behavior Health if you can't handle it. A really good counselor would know if the Soldier is already going through issues not yet surfaced. That hits home with a specific line in the NCO Creed.... "I KNOW MY SOLDIERS"... Just my 2cent on it.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 30 at 2014 5:04 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 17:04:41 -0500

Did you look into why they failed to do their tasks? Did you make any unnecessary assumptions? I would view the situation from the soldier's perspective. Have you had a conversation about what happened, or just an accusatory discussion? If you come across accusatory, soldiers aren’t going to trust you enough to tell you the truth, which come be a damn good reason.

I ask you this because; in my career I have been given some unreasonable counseling statements, which has resulted in tears. While deployed, I got pulled out of my bed after my shift to be given a counseling statement by my platoon sergeant. This statement was for speaking to a chaplain about an unethical order the platoon sergeant gave me. Apparently, the chaplain took it upon himself to talk with my platoon sergeant. My platoon sergeant was so upset that he gave me a counseling statement and made me start my next shift 6 hours early with no sleep. Of course I cried, I was working 14 hour shifts, had no sleep, and couldn’t find any justice anywhere in the situation.

In a separate incident, I was given a counseling statement by my first line supervisor during deployment. This statement was for accusing my roommate of stealing my things (which she had), and starting inappropriate rumors (which I hadn’t). Once I find a copy of that statement I might send it your way, just reading it will make your cringe with the stupidity of the accusations.

Response by PFC Thomas Bruce made Dec 30 at 2014 5:58 PM

PFC Thomas Bruce — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 17:58:56 -0500

Had I stayed in I would have been a 1st Sergeant by now that's how long ago I was in. My opinion wouldn't help you. The standard I was trained into doesn't exist anymore. My nephews that are in now tell me horror stories about stress cards and such. Basic is supposed stress you, to define you and weed out the ones who aren't worthy. The debate that has always seemed to be relevant to persons of our ilk, we're or was, well I'm a Marine my basic was harder or I'm a Soldier we learn more, when the point of all of is did you do it with Honor. I never cried I would have been ashamed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2014 7:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 19:17:43 -0500

It may be manipulative and unprofessional..............but that damn sure won't stop me from giving out the counseling statement.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Jan 4 at 2015 1:23 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 01:23:20 -0500

Crying during counseling? Probably unprofessional, but I'm going to have to say it could also be situational.

Wouldn't stop me from sliding that paper across the desk though.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 4:21 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:21:08 -0400

People cry for a number of reasons. Sometimes when being counseled, there may be some shame involved, disappointment with yourself for letting someone you respect and look up to down. It is possible that the person has low self esteem or very possible that they are angry. We don't always cry to manipulate. I say "we" meaning people in general, not gender specific. I know when I am angry, but trying with all my might to remember my bearing towards the person talking, not necessarily from counseling, I have cried. I would rather cry in front of the person than lose my temper and behave unprofessionally. Crying can be used manipulatively yes, but it can also be used as a means to maintain professionalism. After witnessing some different situations, you will be able to tell who is manipulating and who is really upset about something, but only if you do not prejudge them for crying. Keep an open mind. Psychology classes helped me understand emotions in a whole new light. I wish they would add psychology classes to our leadership courses.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 11:57 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:57:35 -0400

Perhaps they started crying because they knew they failed in completing the job and are very upset they disappointed YOU and themselves. Doesn't mean they are manipulative, just means they wear their emotions on the sleeve more than others. How are they on a normal basis? Do they cry at the drop of a hat?

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 15 at 2015 5:31 AM

SFC Stephen King — Fri, 15 May 2015 05:31:16 -0400

Balance is key. Crying at the right time for the right reason is normal. We as leaders need to be able to handle all emotions and show our Soldiers that not only we understand and care but fan express our empathy towards them when necessary.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2015 2:16 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 02:16:27 -0400

It depends on the situation. You need to find out if the issue is motivation, lack of skills or if there are personal or family problems that interfere with performance. The first could be an attitude issue but could also be based misunderstands that may be claified thru counseling. The second would call for more training or reclassification. The third could be call for a referral to mental heath or chaplain. In any case crying may not be manipulation. It is more likely stress or frustration. It is a myth that crying is a sign of weakness. Im not saying to accept substandard conduct or performance but good leadership can improve it in most situations.

Response by SSG Eric Trace made Jul 3 at 2015 12:59 AM

SSG Eric Trace — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 00:59:30 -0400

Okay back to task folks, what the good SFC is saying is in the normal work environment, SM's start bawling because of being corrected for THEIR mistakes. This is their new tool to try to get out of trouble. SFC just tell them when the brass (Bullets) starts caring about emotions to let you know, till then tell them to shut up and move out, losses in battle and to ones family, cry yes , during work no. Learn from your mistakes and MTFO!

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 1:50 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 01:50:36 -0400

One of the biggest things I have found when giving counseling is that for younger soldiers I have to preface it with a reminder that this isn't the end of the world and this is just a reality check to get them back on track. It is too easy for them to only see the first 50m target and forget there is the rest of the range to still go, and can still get 39/40. Also we don't know style of counseling, which can also affect how a soldier takes the information. Every person is different and some styles just do not work with them and you need to try a different approach to get though to them.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Oct 7 at 2015 2:16 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 14:16:38 -0400

Emotions are emotions, there is nothing wrong with letting things out, it is healthy. Bottling up everything is one of the triggers of suicide. Never keep things bottled up. If you need to let it out, there is nothing wrong with letting the tears flow. Pain is pain whether physical or emotional.

Response by SSG(P) Jimmy Langley made Oct 7 at 2015 2:23 PM

SSG(P) Jimmy Langley — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 14:23:13 -0400

Cried due to a loss...I have done. Cried due to a counseling...you are correct, it is unprofessional.

Response by PO3 Alex Shamis made Dec 22 at 2021 12:29 PM

PO3 Alex Shamis — Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:29:22 -0500

I have cried a lot during long deployments. I spent weeks not seeing the sun and worked 20 hour days 7 days a week. Spending those 20 hours in a 140 degree room.