Civil Air Patrol, State Guards, and Professional Courtesy

2015-02-25T18:28:30-05:00

I was looking through some photos recently and found a photo that reminded me of an interaction I had while at an Air Show in the deep south. At the time, I was at an air show (civilian attire, but on orders), and as I watched I saw the CAP cadets walking around in fatigues, jackets unbuttoned, sunglasses on their heads, a few even had the "saggy britches" problem. When an officer came by, I was even more shocked. Her uniform was TIGHT....I mean "see the bellybutton hole" tight.

As such, I had addressed her and suggested that she may want to find a more "fitting" uniform, even pointing out that according to the Civil Air Patrol regs you weren't authorized "military-style" uniforms unless you were within 10% of the AF ht/wt (no tape option). When she asked "who the f___ are you?" I informed her that I was a 1LT with the US Army Reserves mobilized in the area. She responded by basically stating that if I were truly in the Reserves, I should have had a greater respect for her rank, as she was a MAJ, and I was only a 1LT.

Additionally, I had a gentleman in the Mississippi State Guard that was wearing his uniform on post to the PX. The guy was certainly above 350lbs, probably pushing 400lbs (not exaggerating)....height was not much taller than me, so maybe 6 foot. I didn't get close enough to catch his rank, but I was floored that he would wear the uniform to a base PX.

In both cases, I found myself wondering how I would have handled the situation in uniform and "up close and personal". I would like to think that the MAJ would have the professional courtesy to realize the sacrifices that myself and my Soldiers would go through in order to obtain their rank, but I wondered whether the standards of professional courtesies apply to these "ranks" seeing as they are not classified as active military personnel, nor are they equivalent ranks from foreign military services.

Obviously, within each realm, they are entitled to the same level of respect as established by policies/by-laws, but my question pertains to whether they are able to expect a uniformed servicemember: Active, Guard, or Reserve of ANY branch to command the same courtesies afforded our own. I don't mind providing them, but at the same time, I kept envisioning myself being "ordered" to stand at attention while being dressed down by MAJ Flab.

Have others had the same interaction? How have you handled these situations?

Disclaimer: This isn't intended to discount any in the state guard or Civil Air Patrol. My interactions with the local CAP unit here have been good, and I know that there are State Guardsmen that are very well qualified as well. This is not meant to be a generalization.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 8:46 PM

2015-02-25T20:46:06-05:00

I was active duty Navy, but I am currently Air guard(Really fun transition!). I can tell you that in my unit you would not get away with that at all. I would match any of my guard guys against any active duty counter parts. But I have worked with other units guard and reserve from all branches that did not fit the military requirements. Leadership sets the tone. We have all served in Active units that you would get away with things that you would never get away with in other units.

As for for the CAP, I have had some interactions with them. I put them in the same group as Coast Guard Auxiliary. They might not fit the military fitness requirements but they serve a critical role in Search and Rescue and do it for the fraction of the cost of Military and most I ever dealt with are professional.

Just my two Cents.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 11:58 PM

2015-02-25T23:58:10-05:00

No No No and Hell No! No they do not warrant a salute or any official courtesy from any active duty/ reserve or guard even if that person is holds that rank in the above 3, but is acting in capacity of CAP. The only courtesy they may be afforded is simply mutual respect for the services they provide the nation. They are not entitled to anything more or less then what is afforded any citizen. CAP is the official auxiliary to the AF as a honorary title only. It holds no official recognition as being a component of the Air Force. They are a civilian corporate non-profit that was chartered by congress to provide three missions, emergency services, aerospace education, and the cadet program. The only time they maybe given courtesy of their positions is if a the member is acting in a leadership role in an emergency management position. Many CAP members are incident commanders qualified to run incident commands under FEMA. In this capacity they hold the management authority under FEMA. This authority would be the some as any state or federal employee in that position. This would be the only official respect garnered a CAP person by anyone interacting with said incident command center.

My previous reserve job was to provide oversight for CAP. I have a bit of insight on the organization. First before blasting them. I will say that for the most part CAP consists of genuine volunteers of people trying to do something good for the community. They come from all walks of life from a civilian who has never served, to current and former military personnel of all branches and statuses. A good deal of them are former military aviators keeping their aviation interests alive. Some are involved in the emergency management aspect and the remainder provide mentorship to the cadet program which is sort of like a melding of scouts with a JROTC unit.

For the most part in my 2+ years of overseeing this program as a reservist, they act fairly professional. In most cases the cadets tend to be fairly locked up and in most instances actually wear the uniform sharper than some AD/R/ANG folks. Every now and then you run you run across a few bad apples, as in the case of your run in with them.

Aside from that. Their ranks only have bearing in their world. They have no UCMJ authority. They cannot be tried for crimes under the UCMJ. They can quit at anytime. The only penalty a CAP person can get is removed from the membership rolls. Unless someone is has a felony conviction or some other serious misdemeanor offences, anyone can join the adult program called the senior member program over the age of 18 as long as they have a HS diploma or GED. For the senior members or SM's they have no accession requirements. There is no stress based basic training or officer training. Anyone can join regardless of their medical status and weight and grooming standards. To become a 2Lt in CAP, as long as they are 21 years or older, one joins takes a few tests on the history of CAP and cadet protection policy. Six months later they pin on 2LT. SM's under 21 earn up to 3 provisional ranks that have no military equivalent called flight officers which look similar to the insignia of AFSROTC cadets. SM's participate in their own version of professional education. Similar to corporate management courses. They do these as well as meet other metrics in specialty tracks which are their equivalent to a duty MOS or AFSC. Once they hit time in grade they get advanced to next promotion. A CAP member can promote up to Lt Col, unless they are appointed into a leadership position such as wing commander or other higher headquarters then they get CAP Col. They have two CAP General's that run their national HQ. A military officer can be advanced to their highest grade up to Lt Col. They now have a enlisted track for military enlisted who chose to be in this track, otherwise a military enlisted person can opt to be in the officer program.

As long as they meet AF grooming standards they are authorized to wear a modified version of the AF uniform, to include service dress, mess dress, flight suits, and the old woodland BDU. The uniform is distinctive enough so it will not be confused with Air Force personnel. The officers wear grey epaulet sleeves on all AF Blue combinations. versus metal on the service coat and blue on the light blue shirt. They wear a specific universal hat device on the AF officer flight cap versus metal rank. They have to do this because they possess no rank authority over military members. Prior/current military members can wear military wings or devices along with CAP wings and devices that would be consistent with what is authorized for wear on AF uniforms by AF personnel.

If they do not meet grooming standards or the member elects to, they are authorized corporate specific uniforms that parallel AF uniforms in spirit. These include the white shirt and grey pants combination with the grey epaulets and CAP devices such as CAP wings and other other specialty insignia. CAP insignia are only allowed on this version so no federal military stuff is worn. They have a blue BDU and flight suit. CAP members wearing corporate uniforms do not render any military customs and courtesies within their own ranks while wearing this variant.

I know its a bit long winded. I figured I would unleash the nature of this organization to better understand where the fit in the big scheme of things.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 4:50 AM

2015-03-11T04:50:07-04:00

Sir,

I would have a hard time with a CAP Officer dressing me down. State and Local law enforcement, corrections officers, and even private security companies use the same rank structure we do. That doesn't mean I'm going to salute the CPT from a prison. I'm not diminishing the CAP, but they do not merit the same level of respect that a service-member does.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 6:04 AM

2015-03-11T06:04:57-04:00

While I would not render a salute to a CAP or CGA officer, the state guard is situationally dependent. We have Indiana Guard Reserve guys that assist with the SRP process, and other pre-mob stuff. I did render courtesies to them. While I can't say that it was required, it was more of a sign of appreciation. While their commissions are solely state, not federal, when I am on a Title 32 status, I am state property. It would make sense, therefore, that I would render courtesies.

Then again, as an E4, I chewed a State Guard CW4's ass for wearing a beret inside of a Staples store.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 6:06 AM

2015-03-11T06:06:05-04:00

Eh..

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Mar 20 at 2015 9:44 AM

2015-03-20T09:44:34-04:00

No, CAP and State Defense Forces are not entitled to military customs and courtesies. I don't see the issue with the fat State Guard guy wearing his uniform.

Response by SSgt Michael Orcutt made Apr 24 at 2015 6:12 PM

2015-04-24T18:12:17-04:00

I am a 2Lt in the Civil Air Patrol and I would NEVER disrespect a commissioned officer like that. I am apart of CAP to help mentor cadets and give them a little exposure to the military before they roll into recruiter Snuffys office and get lied to. Individuals such as Maj Flabby give Military style organizations such as the CAP a bad name. What a lot of CAP officers fail to realize is that CAP is like Boy Scouts with planes. Sure they support the Air Force in doing some homeland missions, but at the same time CAP is a non profit organization and is not apart DOD. That "Major" was probably someone that wanted to be in the military and couldn't. I would have lit her up, and I was only a SSgt... you had a lot more bearing than I would have had.

Great post

Response by Lt Col Eric Davis made May 3 at 2015 12:20 AM

2015-05-03T00:20:06-04:00

I've been in CAP for many years, I was a CAP Cadet for many years back in the 70's, and rejoined as a senior member in 1997 while on active duty. I've always struggled with some of the attitudes SOME (often too many) of their senior members. Their views on customs and courtesies and some of the larger people who try to fit into military uniforms has always been a sore spot with me. As you experienced, often when you correct them they get hostile, but to be fair I've seen that from some military people when you try to correct them and you're not in uniform.

I learned a LONG time ago how to respond to the "Who the "F" are YOU to correct ME?" line people give (CAP or military). I first state my name and then say "My rank is irrelevant; you are wrong in how you are wearing the uniform (or whatever they're doing incorrectly) and it doesn't matter if I am an E-1 or an O-10, if someone calls you out on something YOU'RE doing wrong, YOU need to fix it." Then if necessary, I'll see if they want to play "ID Card Flip" with me...

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 9 at 2015 3:35 AM

2015-06-09T03:35:51-04:00

ALL CONCERNED:
I am a First Lieutenant in the Civil Air Patrol and a Retired Staff Sergeant in the US Army. Here is what I have observed. Last year I was a TAC Officer for the North Carolina CAP Wing Summer Encampment. It was held at the Stanley County Air National Guard Base. Several of the Air Force Personnel did salute me, and I returned the salute with the greeting of the day "AIRBORNE!". Most Air Force personnel did not salute me or any other CAP Senior Member Officers. I shared a few laughs and a few "war Stories" with the Air Force guys there. I wear my Master Parachutist Wings and Combat Infantry Badge on my CAP BDUs, as authorized. I asked one of the NCOs who had saluted why he did it. He said it was because he respected that we volunteered our time to help the Cadets and that he felt that our Cadets should see us as having earned respect. I appreciated it greatly.

I have seen some CAP Officers that seem to think that they are Air Force Officers and have gently and not so gently reminded them we do not hold a commission.

NO MATTER WHAT, Major Belly button was dead wrong, period. We instill in all our Cadets that they will treat all people with courtesy and respect, render the proper military courtesies to all service Members in or out of uniform, and to the officers in the CAP. Our organization is a great place to grow our future Military, Community, and Civic leaders.
PLEASE do not allow the actions of the few to tarnish the opinion you have on the whole. My cadets work hard to do what we require of them. Some Senior members should work just as hard to be the example to the Cadets that they should be.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jul 24 at 2015 6:37 PM

2015-07-24T18:37:48-04:00

I think more often than not we tend to worry about others a bit too much and not focus how we live our lives. So the CAP major had a problem with professionalism, did you? I will not tolerate that conduct from my children or myself, others have a good day.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-11-09T10:43:27-05:00

CPT Jonathan Butler, no sir, there are five branches; Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard all requiring our respect and customs and courtesies due their rank. However, the Civil Air Patrol is not a Branch of the US Military and therefore does not warrant the same customs and courtesies. When I first read this I was reminded of High School JROTC, would you salute their Major, no, and you would not salute a CAP MAJ either, sir, I would suggest if this happens again that you ask to see her FLL.
As for NG Soldiers and I don't intend this to be a generalization, but we must remember that the majority of their funding (Budget), leadership (Commanding General is an appointment by the Governor), and responsibility (Civil unrest, Floods and Wild Fires) is handled at the state level and thus some states/units, but not all, remember I said not all for those that may take offense to my post.
Some States do not hold their Soldiers to military standards. I truly believe after the past 14 years of war they are thankfully harder to find, but they are still out there. However, all of this would not stop me from addressing it if I saw the Soldier at the PX, sir. Because, the Soldier is still wearing the uniform of the US Military and is disrespecting you and I to wear it in public looking as you described. I am surprised, though, that their leadership had allowed the Soldier to make it to that size without putting them out of the military.

Response by CPT Keith Steinhurst made Dec 7 at 2015 2:05 PM

2015-12-07T14:05:15-05:00

As it happens, the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) in a manner not dissimilar to that of the US Coast Guard Auxiliary performs functions in support of their parent / sponsoring service. Their rank is not honorary, it is real within their organization, but it has no status in the Uniformed Services defined in Titles 10 and 32 of the United States Code. BLUF: One is not required to render customs or courtesies accorded to rank or precedence to members of those organizations - there is in like manner no prohibition against it either. State Guards or State Defense Forces or State Militias operating under the authority of the Governor of a State are a different thing entirely - their rank is real, and, when worn in conjunction with State Active Duty Orders, given by the Governor through their Adjutant General (or other authority) within the jurisdictional limits of the State has real status over State resources. In some States, the members of the State Guard are afforded status similar to that of a National Guard member. A Federal member should think of a State Guard member in that manner - in a perpetual Title 32 role and not in a position to Command Federal resources or troops - but they are, under the law, really allowed to wear a Federal style uniform, modified to reflect their unique State status and perform their role as an organized State militia.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 17 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-12-17T19:51:36-05:00

It is a challenge correcting someone when they are wrong but thinks he/she is right.

Response by SSgt Rilene Ann made Dec 17 at 2015 10:22 PM

2015-12-17T22:22:04-05:00

CAP Major not equal in rank to actual military

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Dec 27 at 2015 10:27 PM

2015-12-27T22:27:04-05:00

I was a Captain in the CAP once upon many years ago. As our unit was located on an active Air Force base, I would render the proper C&C to any commissioned or CAP officer I encountered. Many of the AD enlisted would salute while others did not. I never got butt hurt over the enlisted members who chose not to salute. I was NOT, after all, a commissioned or Warrant officer in the Federal Armed Services.

Response by 1SG Vance Whippo made Dec 23 at 2016 4:09 AM

2016-12-23T04:09:43-05:00

You do not warrant a salute or or respect as they are an embarrassment to there services. This is the first thing I think of, however, do I know them and know what they have done in their life, No. As far as requiring a salute, No they do not as they are not part of the seven recognized services. Here is my concern, there are both good and bad soldier, airman, marines, sailors, guard members and even CAP/CGA. Some of the most over weight I have seen were active duty navy and some of the worst dressed were the active duty air force. I can not speak for the CAP/CGA , but I can for the Army and now the State Guard. I served 30 years on active and reserve status in the army and I just joined the State Guard (SG). SG has had a bad reputation as being the Coronals Club, but there has been a huge effort to change this and become more professional. They are title 32 the same as the NG, but can not be federalized and are activated during state emergency's. Most members are prior military and have lots of civilian experience as well. There are requirements, that if they SG does not look good in there uniform or they do not know how to wear it, then they are not authorized to wear it. There is a difference between SG and State Militia, which is not state backed by the governor. All officers of the SG must be approved by the state elected and are commissioned by an act of the governor. The SG is small and is actually harder to get into than the reserves or NG in Washington State, at least as an officer. Bottom line, those who you think you don't need to salute my be more deserving of it than some active duty personnel. You don't have to salute, but nothing says you cant if you think they deserve it. Look at the ribbons or their combat patch. Most but not all, have far more time and experience then 80 of the federal services. Just my thoughts from years as a NCO.

Response by Matt Moon made May 29 at 2017 12:34 PM

2017-05-29T12:34:50-04:00

I was in the Civil Air Patrol' as a 1st Lt. Senior Member, we are not entitled to a Salute from the Armed Force's' as the ranks are pretty much given to you provided you pass a online test on Emergency Services. I serve with the Texas State Guard Maritime Regiment. The State Guard' is considered a part of the Texas State Military Forces' it is a all volunteer force. Officer's must graduate from OCS - Officer Canidate School wich is held at Camp Mayberry in Austin Texas and the 6th month training course is conducted by the Army National Guard. Texas State Guard members with Officer rank are to be treated as if they were National Guard members, out of courtesy and respect only if the Armed Service member renders a salute all salutes are to be rendered back . The Federal Military's Armed Forces out rank the Department Of Home Land Security Military Forces' with the exception of the Coast Guard. However the Texas State Guard is not a part of the Federal Armed Force's wich out ranks the Texas State Guard . The Federal Military is not required to Salute State Guard Members. The Coast Guard Auxiliary & Civil Air Patrol are required to salute the State Guard as they completed OCS . The same concept applies because all 3 are Volunteer Orginzations with the State Guard being the highest . Wich serve under the Department of Homeland Security' and each of them conduct Search & Rescue for the State . The Federal Military also out ranks GS - Government Specialty' who outrank are Volunteer Auxiliary Component's State Guard, Civil Air Patrol, Coast Guard Auxiliary . Unless the person with a Government Specialty is serveing in Law Enforcement .

Response by Matt Moon made May 29 at 2017 1:43 PM

2017-05-29T13:43:31-04:00

The Civil Air Patrol dose not out rank the Army Reserve I hate to break it to her as a 1st Lt Senior Member in the Civil Air Patrol but her rank in the actual Military would be the equivalent of a E-3 . She needs to conduct herself more professionally than that and show respect to a Vetran. Now if she was a State Guard Major it would be a completely different story as the State Guard is considered a part of the Texas State Military Forces and all Officer's must complete 6 month's of OCS wich is the same OCS traning the National Guard has to go through at Camp Mayberry in Austin Texas . The Civil Air Patrol basically just hands you your rank provided you pass the online test you could sit on your ass at home and do that for a few hours .

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2017 3:46 PM

2017-05-29T15:46:50-04:00

I'll beat this dead horse a while... I've been an officer in CAP and the Real-Man's military for a while. There's always going to be that top 10% and bottom 10%. Any person in any organization who flouts their rules should be corrected. I receive confused salutes while on military bases in my CAP uniform, and I cordially return them. I've only once been engaged with, "What the heck are you wearing?" and I politely explained what CAP was and tried to recruit him. Within the organization, I attempt within reason to enforce uniform and appearance rules; as an incident commander, I've disallowed members to participate in the field or fly if their uniform would get us (CAP) in trouble in a mishap (I've sent people home for seeing the same violation twice--and it's not easy or fun to do). It's easier if you remind them that the corporation becomes liable if the Air Force were to disallow approval based on a uniform reg violation (it's happened before--even in line-of-duty death mishaps). There's also our public relations perception. Children dressed like Navy SEALs (rife with unauthorized garments, equipment, and knives) with the caption "TYPICAL CIVIL AIR PATROL CADETS" does not win points for CAP.

If military members render a courtesy, the easiest action is to simply return it. Once, though, I had to correct a military member. At an encampment on an Army base, three young soldiers left the mess hall where the cadets were standing in line, and one cocky jerk used foul language in front of (but not necessarily at) the cadets about how he was inconvenienced by their use of half the facility. As the senior active-duty member present, I ran them down, identified myself with my military ID, and explained that our presence at the bar was authorized directly by the commander. I was much, much more polite than I should have been. (Though I required them to salute me when I dismissed them.)

Response by Matt Moon made Jun 1 at 2017 2:42 PM

2017-06-01T14:42:54-04:00

The State Guard is allowed to shop at the BX , ShopPet & Commissary there part of the State Military Department it's part of there benifits. The Civil Air Patrol is not allowed to be in there unless it's during drill are there buying uniform supplies.

Response by Matt Moon made May 15 at 2018 5:48 AM

2018-05-15T05:48:08-04:00

I'm a former member of the Civil Air Patrol Senior Member 1st Lieutenant. The Armed Force's are not required to salute us. The only people who are required to salute us is Civil Air Patrol Cadets , anyone in the Civil Air Patrol below our rank, Young Marines , Naval Sea Cadet Corps, Coast Guard Auxiliary & High School JROTC. The Civil Air Patrol is not a part of the Military it's a Volunteer Civillan Auxiliary Component of the Air Force. The Armed Force's may salute us if they wish but is not required. Unlike the State Guard you have to have been a Officer in the Armed Force's our completed Officer's Canidate School through the Texas State Guard. The Texas State Guard is considered a part of the Texas State Military Department and all personnel are required to be treated as members of the National Guard there for a salute is to be rendered.

Response by Matt Moon made Sep 7 at 2018 3:34 PM

2018-09-07T15:34:59-04:00

Former Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary Senior Member 1st Lieutenant. Now serveing in the ARMY STATE GUARD. The State Guard is part of the State Military Department along with the ARMY National Guard & Air Force Air National Guard. In order to be a Commissioned Officer in the State Guard you have to go through the same OCS - Officer Canidate School. The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary basically makes all of it's Adult Members anyone over the age of 18 a 2nd Lieutenant within 6 month's of service by completing a Online Crouse in Emergency Services and earning a Technicians Rating. So no a Civil Air Patrol Officer dose not require a Salute there a Civillan there not considered a part of the Military. The State Guard is considered a part of the States Military Department so the same Customs & Courtesies would apply were treated like members of the National Guard our Officer's had to complete a 18 month's Officer's Canidate Course to earn there Commission.

Response by Matt Moon made Sep 7 at 2018 3:55 PM

2018-09-07T15:55:51-04:00

Well I served with the Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary from 16 October 2010 - 30 November 2015 as a Senior Member i left as a 1st Lieutenant. The Civil Air Patrol didn't really do anything in the Wing that i was in its more less a social club to pay $120 year for membership. Most of the people there were Dishonorable Discharge from the military our they were Stolen Valor a bunch of people who did nothing but lie and make up stories about there service. Walking around looking like a Soupsandwich with hair hanging out of there nose and ears. The groming standards and physical fitness was a joke . You want to talk about Chair Force you sat in a chair for 6 hours to watch a stupid saftey briefing that didn't even really protain to anything of importance. The Civil Air Patrol is a joke it's way for someone to lie and throw on a uniform to pretend to be something there not . Not everyone who serves in the Civil Air Patrol is like that though but for the most part that's what you have to deal with. As for the State Guard it depends on the unit. My unit dosent tolerate any kind of bullshit. The unit i was with before the Martime Regiment is ate the hell up. So i transfered over to the ARMY Component.

Response by Matt Moon made Oct 27 at 2018 1:40 PM

2018-10-27T13:40:12-04:00

The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary is a Civillan Auxiliary Component for the United States Air Force. I'm a Former Member 1st Lieutenant Senior Member. You're Rank is given to by completing FEMA Course's on line . The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary is not considered a part of the Military. The State Guard is considered a part of the States Military Forces Department. All Officer's must complete 6 months of OCS - Officer Canidate School unless they earned there commission as Prior Service by serveing in the Armed Force's. So you are required to Salute them. They hold the same power as a National Guardsmen to a certain extent. You're Commanding Officer should tell you rather our not you're required to follow orders from them more than likely no .Someone who left the Service as an Officer gave up that privilege when they left unless they served 20+ years and retried. So you can basically tell them to kiss you're ass .

Response by Matt Moon made Oct 27 at 2018 2:00 PM

2018-10-27T14:00:37-04:00

I had people who saluted me when i as 1st Lieutenant Senior Member in the military. They told me an Officer is a Officer it's proper Customs and Courtesy .So I saluted them back and went about my business. I'm not stupid enough to try and give someone in the Armed Force's a Direct Order unless they get completely out of line and they need to be corrected. I have a E-4 Specialist in the National Guard up at the Armory who thinks he can do whatever the hell he wants . He stuffs drinks and candy in his pocket , he dosent shave and get a hair cut when comes to formation. He dosent salute a Officer, He's very disrespectful and he's allways walking outside with out his Cover . Uniform all wrinkled boots unbloused shoe laces hanging out. The guy is a walking Soup Sandwich of course he asked me who the fuck are you? And told me to fuck off when i told I'm in the State Guard and he needs to correct himself, Of Crouse i went to 1st Sergeant Childers his 1st Sergeant and i got his attitude taken care of real quick . The next month i found him and a E-5 Sergeant throwing paperballs at each other in the Recruitment Office not doing there job . As i stood at the door watching them. The Ate Up, Fat Ass Corporal was hiding under the Desk giggling like a little school gril while the Sergeant had his feet kicked up on his desk. So i went and got 1st Sergeant Childers agian to correct him. Corporal Phillips is always getting NJP He's a real screw up.

Response by SSgt Elihu Lowery made Apr 22 at 2019 1:49 AM

2019-04-22T01:49:10-04:00

The Civil Air Patrol is a Civilian Humanitarian Organization. Its members are civilian, prior-service, or retired military. They have to salute each other and higher ranking military Officers but they hold no position of authority over military personal and cannot demand anything of them to include salutes. If they wear the Air Force uniform they must wear them correctly, be within 10% of the Air Force Standards and be courteous. Sounds like the cadets lacked proper supervision and the CAP Major sounds unprofessional. Perhaps she was a retired military Major and felt entitled. I've had some issues with military retires before. As they feel they have "earned" the right to wear the uniform no matter how poorly and will be rude about it.
As for the State Guards/State Defense Force they have no weight requirements. Often the State Defense Forces/State Guards are undermanned and are not about to chase unpaid volunteers off just because they do not meet military weight standards, so long as they are trying and are willing to work. Volunteers are hard to find and most Commanders are not going to risk running them off over uniform or weight standards so long as they are willing to work.
I am a CAP Master Sergeant, with piorservice experience, as well as a formor member of the Mississippi State Guard and a retired SSG with the Alabama State Defense Force. As an NCO try to insure I correct or report such individuals as you encountered. I am sorry that they are your lasting experience with these organizations as they do have many dedicated, hard working people in their ranks.

Response by SSgt Elihu Lowery made Nov 19 at 2020 9:43 AM

2020-11-19T09:43:16-05:00

I served in the Mississippi State Guard as a SSG for a time and they do not have a weight restriction, so long as they are physically capable of performing their duties. Some level of physical fitness is recommended but not demanded. They Drill in National Guard facilities and attend annual training at Camp Shelby or Camp McCain so perhaps that's where you seen him in the BX/PX?
I am serving as a MSgt in the Civil Air Patrol and most members follow the required Air Force Uniform guidelines but the ones that don't seem to turn up in the most public, most visible places. It of course comes down to leadership and the Squadron Commander. If they are enforcing the rules required then the troops are squared away. If not, you end up with Maj Pop Button (who maybe the Squadron Commander, in which case it would be up to the Group Commander to get her into regs),
As for Grade; a Civil Air Patrol Officer has no Authority over Military Service Members no more then a Salvation Army Officer does. It shows their level of training within the program, as they gain job knowledge and complete required training a member advances in Grade, but sadly job knowledge does not always translate into professionalism.

Response by SPC Roy Asbell made Jul 17 at 2023 4:46 PM

2023-07-17T16:46:36-04:00

As a long time CAP member (32+ years) and a former USAR Specialist (91Q), the CAP Maj was completely out of line. Sadly, we do at times attract some military wanna-bes, that think they can order real military members around simply because they are an officer in CAP. I've had to correct a few over the years. Years ago when I went through our Level 1 Orientation to CAP, the instructor stressed that CAP rank is not an official military rank. Every time I teach a Level 1 to new CAP members, I stress that to them.
Several years ago, I had a similar experience with a CAP member. They were having an air show at the local USAF base, but because of work, I couldn't commit the working the whole day. I went to the air show along with a former cadet officer who was waiting to go to basic training at Lackland. He corrected the cadets about their sloppy uniforms. The officer didn't know who I was because I was not in uniform, but I knew who she was by name. She was squadron commander of a squadron in another part of the state. I didn't confront her at the time.
A couple weeks later, at the wing commander's call, I had to give a briefing about uniform wear to all the commanders for all the units in the state. At the time, I was the Wing Personnel Officer and had been tasked by our Wing Commander to visit squadrons and activities and make sure uniforms were being worn correctly. You could see her face drop when she walked in and saw me in uniform. It dropped even more when after the meeting, she was called into the Wing Commander's office along with her Group Commander. When she left the office, she was no longer a squadron commander.