Check down not Up

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 08:13:35 -0500

I absolutely despise this term and tend to lose my mind when I hear people of any rank use it. Has anyone else had to deal with it and how?
I've found that counting to ten doesn't work.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jan 8 at 2014 8:41 AM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 08:41:24 -0500

SFC Grudzinski

As a SPC and SGT, I had two section NCOICs (SFCs) who were always away from the office for "personal reasons." People would stop by the office and ask where they were; they would email, text and call me at all hours of the night looking for the NCOIC. I was always polite but there were many times I wanted to say "I check down, not up".

Just curious why you despise the statement?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 8 at 2014 8:54 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 08:54:03 -0500

I absolutely HATE this phrase. Soldiers are SUPPOSED to check up. We are role models, examples of that they should aspire to. They are supposed to be looking at us, learning from us, emulating us. Quite frankly, if a "leader" is doing something that has them uttering this phrase, they likely are setting a horrible example.

This is an instant blood boiler..

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jan 8 at 2014 9:09 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 09:09:58 -0500

I have been respectfully corrected on things by subordinates, and it really didn't bother me at all. If you take it personally, you're not being professional. The exception to this would be if the individual making the correction is being a jerk/showboat about it; then it's understandable that someone would get upset. I have also pulled aside my superior officers a few times to make small corrections in private and they appreciated it. My conclusion is that often times, people who are upset about being corrected are upset with HOW it is being made, not the actual infraction at hand.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 11:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 11:34:28 -0500

count down from 10 SFC, not up? ;+) jk..

Seeing various posts and insight on the topic... Here are a few vigniette's Id like you to take a moment to consider...

CSM puts out BN formation time. He himself shows up late. If a SGT who is a Gunner / Team leader in one of the units steps up and asks, "CSM, why were you late to your own formation"... yeah, WAY, WAY, WAY out of line. a Section Chief / squad leader steps up and asks the same question, WAY WAY out of line. the 1SG, does the same while in formation, WAY out of line. The same 1SG goes into CSM's office and asks him the same question. Is that out of line? I would say yea, maybe, but depending on their personal/ professional relationship it may or may not be deemed as out of line. But what business is it of the 1SG as to why the CSM was or was not there on time... BN CDR asks CSM the same question, are they out of line? No.

Leader Snuffy is out of the office and subordinate Snuffy (no relation of course) are in a high vis. operation and subordinate snuffy needs to get some information from leader, is subordinate snuffy wrong to call and ask them when they would be back IOT facilitate the mission. No

Unit is deployed, leader Snuffy has their family back home waiting on them. Leader Snuffy is in their trailer down range and has a guest of the opposite sex in there and, well, they sure aren't studying for the board... Subordinate Snuffy who happens to live across the way there happens to see this ongoing situation and wants to address the leader... is that wrong? NO

The situation dictates whether or not the subordinate is right or wrong in their action and of course methods, tact, INTENTIONS, etc etc...

It is more than a cut and dry issue as to whether or not "Check down, not up" applies or is right / wrong. Usually its just a leader who is doing something immoral, unethical or illegal that doesn't want their subordinate addressing them in regards to the issue that doesn't like the statement. As with most things, Situation dictates.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 11:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 11:48:17 -0500

It all boils down to tact and respect. Any person in uniform can correct another individual regardless of rank if given the proper military courtesy afforded them. I find that senior leaders usually starting at SSG tend to think that joe/jane can t correct them due to their rank which is a negative mindset. First thing I learned when i came in was soldiers see and hear EVERYTHING and are taught that you are permitted to make a correction as long as you use tact, respect and a little common sense (dont correct a 1SG among his peers etc). This is what discourages our troops and often dont want to stay in the army because of the double standards floating around the ranks.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Jan 8 at 2014 1:49 PM

CPO Greg Frazho — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:49:00 -0500

I had an admiral zip up his windbreaker before I'd take a picture of him at the War College. I got the idea he hadn't and wasn't told things like that due to numerous pictures I'd seen of him with his windbreakers unzipped completely or well underneath the three-quarter mark (with the zipper in the track!) Sometimes, you have to throw caution to the wind and accept that you're going to take some heat from somebody about tactfully correcting (not lambasting) a senior rank for something. It happens.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 5:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 17:06:58 -0500

I agree and disagree with the varying responses. It is my opinion that people who use that phrase or lead under that mindset are poor leaders that feel they are above question. A good leader will understand that we are not perfect and occasionally need fixed. While I wholeheartedly agree that the deliver of the message is more important than the content.

I had once seen a soldier tell his PSG that they were doing a PRT exercise wrong. This PSG who loved to inform people he was once DS of the year and was tasked with teaching PRT to other DS's refused to accept that he was wrong and the soldier was right. To me that is a poor example of an NCO regardless of past accomplishments.

I am not one of those people that is impressed with badges, medals and medallions because they are just indications of what you did for yourself, not soldiers.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 9:27 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:27:22 -0500

I have honestly never heard this phrase and was always encouraged
to make corrections of those who outranked me.

But I have been hassled correcting a Sr officer (or NCO),
but I haven’t made a uniform correction on a Sr NCO or Officer since the ACU
first came out.

Response by SFC John Brooks made Feb 3 at 2014 3:37 PM

SFC John Brooks — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 15:37:07 -0500

Amazing how things you haven't had a lot of experience with before tend to happen after you read about them. 2 weeks ago, I was going up an escalator in the Pentagon behind two LTCs in their service uniforms. One of them had his hands in his pockets. When we got to the top, I politely said "Excuse me, Sir, your hands are in your pockets." I wasn't trying to bust him out, just making a simple spot correction. His response? You guessed it. "Check down, not up, sergeant." And he walked down the corridor, hands still in his pockets...

I didn't press the issue, it seemed to be one of those "Choose your battles" moments and likely wouldn't have ended well for me with as angry as I was by the lack of discipline.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2014 3:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 15:43:40 -0500

I have heard it quite a few times, but the bottom line up front is that my general military authority trumps anyone's desire to hide behind that saying. I have had several "discussions" with senior ranking Soldiers, and junior ones, about revolving around this kind of situation.

Wrong is wrong, but you have to approach certain situations with tact and always expect some resistance.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 3 at 2014 4:26 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 16:26:06 -0500

I think that if you aren't able to respective corrective comments from those around you, regardless of rank, you are missing out on a huge chance to grow professionally. To have a narrow-minded point of view like that seems to be a bad move. I think everyone can benefit from listening to other's ideas. Now of course, there is a proper time and place to have a conversation and then there are times to just follow orders. But yes, I despise the term as well.

Response by MAJ Samuel Weber made Mar 18 at 2014 8:26 PM

MAJ Samuel Weber — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 20:26:43 -0400

I guess it depends on how it is asked. I usually volunteer my whereabouts to my a Soldiers. Now if I was asked "Where are you going?" I may respond with "don't worry about it." Sometimes subordinates do forget who they are talking too. When I was a SFC I had a CPL working for me and I got on him for "jaw jacking" with another Soldier when he was supposed to working, he responded with "Well I haven't seen you do anything all day Sergeant" I lost my mind! I then reminded him that I don't answer to him and he doesn't manage my time. I find this to be a typical fault amount subordinates when they don't see what their bosses are doing. As has been stated many times here on RP tact goes a long way when talking to a superior...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 8:32 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 20:32:30 -0400

Not sure I am understanding this correctly but in my opinion wrong is wrong. If I witness someone doing something that is wrong and violates standards or morality I will say something. That being said timing is everything when dealing with superiors.
I do not and will refuse to live under the mantra of do what I say not as I do. Blind followership is for fools and on stunts our growth as leaders and as a force.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 8:34 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 20:34:57 -0400

I usually hear it said by someone who is ate-up and gets corrected by a lower ranking. Ego check perhaps?