Can you win a fight if it is against an idea?

2015-08-21T20:31:02-04:00

The reason I ask is that ISIS, ISIL, IS, whatever it is this week is gathering followers and/or supporters from an ideology. You can cut off the head but the "gospel" is still there. Is it too late? Is this going to be a generational war?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Aug 21 at 2015 8:39 PM

2015-08-21T20:39:09-04:00

nope...
people die .. ideas don't

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Aug 21 at 2015 8:39 PM

2015-08-21T20:39:39-04:00

This war in the Middle East since the beginning of time. They come up with all types of names for themselves but they all are doing the same thing. Which is killing people for crazy reasons who have nothing to do with there cause. They kill children, women, elderly people. Which is crazy because it's just genaside anyway you look at it. Islam doesn't teach what they are doing.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Aug 21 at 2015 8:42 PM

2015-08-21T20:42:42-04:00

It already is a generational war. The US soldiers going to Afghanistan were 4 years old when 9/11 happened. Also, people often forget that the WTC was originally bombed in 1993.

I'm not sure if you can ever truly defeat an idea, but history has shown that you can defeat the people behind the idea (i.e. Nazism). Whether it's worth it or not is a different matter.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 8:56 PM

2015-08-21T20:56:09-04:00

I agree with LTC Yinon Weiss however, our freedom is worth it. (And I don"t think MAJ Weiss was insinuating that it wasn't). The comment in the paranthesis is a pre-emptive strike {:-)

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Aug 21 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-08-21T21:31:38-04:00

The fight against radical Islamic followers and the ideas of Wahhabi has been going on since the late 19th century - first in what was to become Saudi Arabia. We have been fighting radical Muslims since we fought the Moro in and after the Spanish American war. We are "involved" in the current fighting Abu Sayyaf and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in the Philippines.
Many wars are fought over ideas - in WWII the war was against fascism [German Nazi, Italian Fascists and even Japanese Shinto zealots].
Our civil war was a war against ideas - states rights over federalism and the right of all human beings to be free.
Our war fro independence was fought over the idea of freedom of representation - we had been taxes but had no representatives recognized by our colonial masters. There have been many other wars of independence.
The fight for ideas generally has been best fought in total warfare or warfare that approaches that level - it requires a national will, recognition of the problematic ideas and actively targeting those messages with "better" message and then bringing the war to the opposing people wherever they may be.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2015 12:28 AM

2015-08-22T00:28:54-04:00

In my opinion you cannot win a war against an idea. However you are still obligated morally and by national and international duties to fight the entities that currently embody that idea.

Although a war against the idea cannot be won, failing to combat it and allowing it to spread is doubly deleterious. "Winning" as it were, in this case is not the goal, but rather prevention of defeat. Although a terrible goal in warfare, fighting for prevention of something as much as accomplishment of something can be the true objective.

That was a long way of saying, yes I think this will be a war for quite some time.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Aug 22 at 2015 3:09 AM

2015-08-22T03:09:47-04:00

It will likely be a generational war unless the civilized world unites to stamp it out. The ideology is winning recruits today because ISIS is seen to be winning in the radical world. If they are ground into the mud they will not be as attractive to unstable minds.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2015 3:30 AM

2015-08-22T03:30:02-04:00

Sure, but you would have to kill everybody with that idea.

Unfortunately that would be more genocide than proper solution. You here all the time blow them all up, let god sort them out. However, this is not a feasible solution to the problem.

A whole lot of time, dedication, education, money, sweat, and blood is what it takes. The real question is does America have all of this. I’m not too confident on that part. My two cents.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Aug 22 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-08-22T09:10:31-04:00

You can beat an army,, you can't beat a country

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 22 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-08-22T09:37:00-04:00

SSG Adam Wyatt Brother you would have to take out or change the minds of everyone with that idea.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Aug 22 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-08-22T10:39:34-04:00

SSG Adam Wyatt I've stated many times that we are at war with generations of people that have been taught to hate Westerns, America, and all Infidels. It will take a world effort and a sustained campaign to defeat this enemy and get then teach them to live in peace and get Koran experts teaching new generations to practice their religion in peace. It has been exasperated over time. Only when there are generations of people in the Middle East living in peace, practicing a peaceful religion for generations to come can you change a mindset. This war will continue on until mankind makes the sacrifice to address the root issues and work together throughout the world to change it. It just can't be the United States; it has to be a world coalition.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 22 at 2015 10:59 AM

2015-08-22T10:59:04-04:00

If we can not win a war on ideas, does that mean that the Radical Islamists are right? Do we wave the white flag and become Muslims? Yes, we can with the war of religious cultures, particularly when part of the tenants is to kill all infidels in the most heinous methods. We are not reacting to these methods and returning fire by using similar methods due to our 1st Amendment. In order to fight this to a definitive conclusion, we need a Goebbels type of individual or group that is taking it to the ignorant populace that doesn't understand the difference between the USA and other free nations as compared to what we are seeing as ISIS beginnings of a caliphate. And really conduct a war against them, whenever and where eve,r they pop up there heads with limited ROEs.

Response by CW2 John Brookins made Aug 22 at 2015 11:04 AM

2015-08-22T11:04:51-04:00

Of course, you can defeat an idea. That doesn’t mean you completely eradicate the idea, but you can defeat those that would act upon that idea. However, you can never defeat an idea (evil) with half measures. That is a sure way to encourage the idea. We haven’t fought a whole-hearted war since WWII. While our military members have done an outstanding job and on local levels have won over the enemy many times our leaders and this nation lack the resolve to complete the mission.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 22 at 2015 11:47 AM

2015-08-22T11:47:04-04:00

This an excellent question. One of the Centers of Gravity (COG) for ISIS is their ideology. It took several decades for the some of the Southerners change their ideology after the civil war. It will generational as they have no fear now.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-08-24T13:57:17-04:00

To quote the Roman tribune from "Ben Hur", "How do you fight and idea? I'll tell you how...with another idea!"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2015 9:01 PM

2015-08-26T21:01:35-04:00

I've had this conversation many times- ideas cannot be killed. Terrorism is a classic example: if we could completely eliminate every person who believed in terrorism today, tomorrow someone would wake up and say, "the machine is big and I am small but if I can cause fear then I can overcome the machine."

There are two successful countermeasures to ideas- time and cost. Bad ideas will burn out over a long enough timetable and while they never completely vanish, they are reduced to inconsequential levels. Human sacrifice to appease gods, for example, has gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Cost is another thing entirely, and the guiding principle of war- if I cannot convince you to stop trying to destroy my country, I am going to kill so many of your men and destroy so much of your infrastructure that you need to shelf your hatred in favor of basic survival. Within the confines of the Geneva Conventions, that's what we do. Example: Jasch al Madhi. We didn't convince a single person to abandon the Madhi army- we just inflicted so much trauma that the cost became to high to continue fighting.

Can we win a fight against an idea? No. Do we have options to mitigate, channel, and shape the limits of that idea? Yes.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Aug 26 at 2015 9:29 PM

2015-08-26T21:29:34-04:00

Islam has been at war with the rest of the world since the seventh century and has been using violence and terrorism to spread their beliefs and form of government since the start. One thing that they have always had in their favor is that they don't care how long it takes. They intend to rule the world. So far they have managed to "convert" approximately 57 countries and are well on the way to taking over a bunch more. In order to have any chance of defeating them we will have to be just as determined as they are and just as ruthless. Peaceful coexistence is not possible when your opponent only wants to destroy you. Obama's favorite Muslim group in America C.A.I.R. has publically stated that they are not here to be just another religion. They are here to be the only religion. As long as we refuse to believe them when they tell us that they intend to destroy us they will continue to make progress towards doing just that. You can't defeat an enemy when you refuse to even name the enemy. Islam has never been a religion of peace and will never by until they are the only ones left. It won't be in our lifetimes but they may well rule the world in another few generations.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 27 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-08-27T14:15:17-04:00

This is possible if a good reason is eloquently stated.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 27 at 2015 2:27 PM

2015-08-27T14:27:41-04:00

George Washington had an ideology that he used to raise an army and defeat the British.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Aug 27 at 2015 2:28 PM

2015-08-27T14:28:50-04:00

Rome tried that with Christianity. Look how that turned out.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Aug 27 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-08-27T14:29:51-04:00

A picture is worth a thousand words...

OK. So this picture has words on it. Sue me.

Response by SFC Jack Dilbeck made Aug 27 at 2015 8:14 PM

2015-08-27T20:14:50-04:00

I think the answer depends on the type of idea. Political ideas have often been defeated. The fascist of World War II were soundly defeated in Europe. Religious ideas on the other hand seem to be remarkably resilient. That leaves us with three basic choices; 1. isolate ourselves and hope they go away; 2. total annihilation of the idea and those holding it; 3. management of the idea by degrading the capabilities and influence of those holding the idea. The first two are not really feasible. As for the third, success necessitates the long term political will to do what it takes to protect our way of life. Sadly, political will is fleeting at best.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 5:53 PM

2015-11-18T17:53:28-05:00

One set of ideas is eventually replaced with another set of ideas when the old ideas are discredited. Religious extremism didn't appear out of no where in the Middle East, it gained power when we supported it to halt the spread of communism. It grew strong as an alternative to corrupt governments we support or supported and even now it serves as one of the few alternatives capable of providing some sense of dignity, hope and control over ones life. There is little doubt in my mind that most of us would readily support extremists views if we were in the same circumstances as those in the middle east.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 18 at 2015 6:14 PM

2015-11-18T18:14:38-05:00

I know of two ways that might work. Slug it out where much of the enemy is killed, and the others don't have the will or means to continue fighting. Colonize like the Romans. Conquer then assimilate the new culture. Ideology is difficult to defeat as it may take many decades if not a century.