Posted on Mar 14, 2016
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Any infantryman or engineer knows any obstacle is just a delay. Short of minefields and OP's with shoot-to-kill orders, can the borders be sealed within a reasonable budget. How would you do it?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 46
No and a wall is too expensive. Just need our house and senate to pass practical laws and enforce the ones we have. We need immigrants.
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There is no way to seal any border, due to the fact that one human invents a seal and many humans invent a way in; the rule of "Necessity is the Mother of invention" applies both ways.
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PO2 David Allender
It would take an awful lot of man-power that we just do not have. Also, once the North and South borders are sealed tight, then the Coast Guard would have to have much more personnel and patrol boats to patrol the Atlantic and Pacific side of the U.S. Unfortunately the Coast Guard is busy running down drug runners in both oceans. The borders and the beaches would require 24/7 patrols by dedicated people really wanting to do the job right.
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CPT Pedro Meza
PO2 David Allender - Best solution is unite both countries into one, similar to the European Union; Mexico has a more natural resources then the US.
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PO2 David Allender
CPT Pedro Meza - I really do not believe that the people of either country would really want that. Besides all the corruption that we are having here, then add the Mexecan Cartel to our problems, Just a thought.
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CPT Pedro Meza
The Berlin Wall did not work, so why spend money into something that human nature over comes, however Mexico natural resources are greater then the US, best solution is unite both countries.
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CPT Pedro Meza
SGM (Join to see) - You mean the Alamo, where Mexicans and Anglo's fought for Independence from Mexico. Or are you just proving that walls do not work, but cooperation among groups can create a nation.
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The physical land borders are the easy target for anyone wanting to gain entry and for politicians to place blame on the issue. The other entry points, by air and sea are never discussed. Millions of non citizens enter this country on work visas, student visas, tourist visas, entrepreneurs visas (the Chinese currently have a dominance on the 10,000 total per year). and let's not forget the second most popular way to gain entry, child birth. All airports are birthing centers, the Chinese, Phillipines, India, all the ME, Eastern Europe use our airports as birthing centers to grant that newborn US citizenship. China uses US territories in the Pacific for this, thousands of American born Chinese are now in China, with a birth certificate, and once they are of age they can legally enter the US with family. So are the N/S borders a major problem, well yes. But the Immigration Laws are the real problem.
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You had me at "minefield". No border, no sovereignty, no sovereignty, no country. Enforce the law. Strike at the mules in some way so draconian no one would want to be a mule. Enforce the law, as SGM Marquez says.
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
True, we have all the laws, we are just not in compliance with our own laws.
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Tom Kratman once pointed out in one of his articles that for every 50-foot wall, there's a 51-foot ladder, but also that for every 51-foot ladder, there's a 50-caliber.
It would be a logistical nightmare, though. It would also require an extreme amount of political capital and the willingness to persevere despite the howling through both diplomatic channels and through pro-illegal immigration groups in the States.
The issue is thorny, because it involves people who are often destitute. Humans are hardwired to help the destitute.
A militarized border could be done, but it really ought to go hand-in-hand with a streamlined immigration process. My wife emigrated from Canada, and the process was a total cluster from the very first form we filed. Not to mention expensive. I had to file a form declaring my financial ability to keep my wife off the dole, and the cost to file that one form was ~$400-ish.
We are never going to solve the problem of people wanting to come here, so long as our nation remains the economic powerhouse of the world. What we have is simply too enviable.
That said, we should balance inviting folks to live here with ensuring that they're fully integrated into our society, both from a legal standpoint and an ethical one. Diversity can be a good thing, but we're greater than the sum of our parts, and it's time we stop being fixated on what wonderful parts we are and start focusing on becoming that greater thing.
It would be a logistical nightmare, though. It would also require an extreme amount of political capital and the willingness to persevere despite the howling through both diplomatic channels and through pro-illegal immigration groups in the States.
The issue is thorny, because it involves people who are often destitute. Humans are hardwired to help the destitute.
A militarized border could be done, but it really ought to go hand-in-hand with a streamlined immigration process. My wife emigrated from Canada, and the process was a total cluster from the very first form we filed. Not to mention expensive. I had to file a form declaring my financial ability to keep my wife off the dole, and the cost to file that one form was ~$400-ish.
We are never going to solve the problem of people wanting to come here, so long as our nation remains the economic powerhouse of the world. What we have is simply too enviable.
That said, we should balance inviting folks to live here with ensuring that they're fully integrated into our society, both from a legal standpoint and an ethical one. Diversity can be a good thing, but we're greater than the sum of our parts, and it's time we stop being fixated on what wonderful parts we are and start focusing on becoming that greater thing.
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SGT (Join to see)
I'm not sure if that actually answered the question, or just underscored how difficult it would be to do so.
For a more direct answer: I don't think we could do it at current force levels and budget. Both would have to be significantly expanded.
For a more direct answer: I don't think we could do it at current force levels and budget. Both would have to be significantly expanded.
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MAJ David White
It's ironic that we allow immigrants/refugees in and spend money for their upkeep, rather than require them to learn and earn their way, yet you had such difficulty bringing your wife in. We may not have the will to physically enforce the borders but the system drastically needs an overhaul. Back to the original question- it could be done and several above ideas seem promising. Yet do we have the will to do what it takes?
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SGT (Join to see)
The irony did occur to us several times. My wife pointed out once that she was emigrating from a first-world nation and that she didn't have to come to the US. Well, she did, if she wanted to marry me, but her point was that from her perspective, there's nothing really compelling that the US has that Canada doesn't have for a twenty-something woman with a college degree.
Now, as for the enforcement, I think it would be possible from a material standpoint. But as you say, it comes down to will, and a large percentage of public opinion will swing against what it perceives as "draconian" border controls. We've seen this with some European nations that locked down their borders during the Syrian refugee crisis.
Now, as for the enforcement, I think it would be possible from a material standpoint. But as you say, it comes down to will, and a large percentage of public opinion will swing against what it perceives as "draconian" border controls. We've seen this with some European nations that locked down their borders during the Syrian refugee crisis.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Yup - I go through the same thing with my legal green-card holding English wife. She also productively contributes to society working in a classroom with disabled/handicapped children, yet the government dutifully reminds us in BOLD PRINT to not ever be late with our renewal fee...
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Sure it can. But to completely seal our borders:
-it would most likely be conducted by the military; Army on land, navy and coast guard on the seas and shores, and all branches in the air, both jet aircraft and helo.
-to provide for such a force would take several tens of thousands of people.
-the cost of the forces, equipment (radar, vehicles, etc), and support (food, fuel, housing, etc), would be so astronomical that it would never get out of committee when proposed to congress.
The term "reasonable" is relative. For example, some people see $600 billion in military spending as reasonable and others think it's a waste. It depends on perception and personal biases. But I don't want to get caught up in semantics. Perhaps the answer is NOT sealing the borders but rather a multi-pronged approach; an approach that places security on the border and increases the risk over reward for those attempting to cross and those who would help them.
Maybe a wall is feasible in some sense. No so much from the Gulf to the Pacific in the south and ocean to ocean in the north, but perhaps at strategic points to redirect border crossers, much in the way of tank ditches, wire, and minefields in conventional warfare. You back up the wall with troops from existing units. Put on 30 or 60 day rotations at designated border camps (to be built); you could maybe even involve the National Guard and Reserves, incorporate their 2 week exercise on border duty. The objective of the military is primarily detection and apprehension. After apprehension, they are turned over to the border patrol for investigation, processing, and deportation. In this manner, it could be argued that the military is NOT enforcing law but merely upholding it's primary purpose which is defending a country. Much the same way we conducted border operations in Germany before unification. Yes, I realize that was more like patrolling the borders of Oregon than a country the size of the US, but you got to start somewhere.
After "securing" the border, you work inwards; this is where federal, state, county, and local agencies come in and enforce existing law that states it is illegal to aid, transport, harbor, and hire illegal aliens. This means not just going after the illegals themselves, but also those that hire them. If you want imprisonment as part of punishment for the employer, you can do that. I think what's bigger is to fine them heavily for each and every illegal they hire. Make the fine hefty enough that it becomes to much of a risk to hire the illegals. Then give them an option. They can pay the fine and let them be deported, or pay the fine then sponsor the illegal and obtain a work visa. While taking down employers, every illegal caught speeding, jaywalking, loitering, or however you catch them, gets deported. There ill be no need to round up the 20 million people here illegally. You simply make it uncomfortable for them to be here and the flow will slow and some of those here may even leave on their own.
Yes, it's a big cost up front but this should begin to taper off before too long.
-it would most likely be conducted by the military; Army on land, navy and coast guard on the seas and shores, and all branches in the air, both jet aircraft and helo.
-to provide for such a force would take several tens of thousands of people.
-the cost of the forces, equipment (radar, vehicles, etc), and support (food, fuel, housing, etc), would be so astronomical that it would never get out of committee when proposed to congress.
The term "reasonable" is relative. For example, some people see $600 billion in military spending as reasonable and others think it's a waste. It depends on perception and personal biases. But I don't want to get caught up in semantics. Perhaps the answer is NOT sealing the borders but rather a multi-pronged approach; an approach that places security on the border and increases the risk over reward for those attempting to cross and those who would help them.
Maybe a wall is feasible in some sense. No so much from the Gulf to the Pacific in the south and ocean to ocean in the north, but perhaps at strategic points to redirect border crossers, much in the way of tank ditches, wire, and minefields in conventional warfare. You back up the wall with troops from existing units. Put on 30 or 60 day rotations at designated border camps (to be built); you could maybe even involve the National Guard and Reserves, incorporate their 2 week exercise on border duty. The objective of the military is primarily detection and apprehension. After apprehension, they are turned over to the border patrol for investigation, processing, and deportation. In this manner, it could be argued that the military is NOT enforcing law but merely upholding it's primary purpose which is defending a country. Much the same way we conducted border operations in Germany before unification. Yes, I realize that was more like patrolling the borders of Oregon than a country the size of the US, but you got to start somewhere.
After "securing" the border, you work inwards; this is where federal, state, county, and local agencies come in and enforce existing law that states it is illegal to aid, transport, harbor, and hire illegal aliens. This means not just going after the illegals themselves, but also those that hire them. If you want imprisonment as part of punishment for the employer, you can do that. I think what's bigger is to fine them heavily for each and every illegal they hire. Make the fine hefty enough that it becomes to much of a risk to hire the illegals. Then give them an option. They can pay the fine and let them be deported, or pay the fine then sponsor the illegal and obtain a work visa. While taking down employers, every illegal caught speeding, jaywalking, loitering, or however you catch them, gets deported. There ill be no need to round up the 20 million people here illegally. You simply make it uncomfortable for them to be here and the flow will slow and some of those here may even leave on their own.
Yes, it's a big cost up front but this should begin to taper off before too long.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
SPC Darren Koele At least there would be some meaning and teeth to the phrase - "Protect and Defend"
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SPC Darren Koele
SGM Mikel Dawson - Exactly. And get tired of hearing these single pronged attempts at fixing the problem. All of these solutions are based in bias but really lack in common sense as everyone tries to protect their sacred cows. Some simply say, "build a wall", others say "militarize the border"... that used to be me. Still others want to simply "round up and deport" while others lay blame entirely on the employers and want to after them. The fact is, you have to do all these things. Remove the incentive for them to come here and heighten the risk of coming and being here. When the risk rises above the reward, they will think twice about entering. The military would essentially serve as an alarm and security, but they provide a lethal threat against those that may be armed such cartel members, drug mules, gang bangers, and terrorists. The only sacred cows in my mind is our sovereignty, our laws, and our security.
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It always surprises me that otherwise intelligent people are so mesmerized by the news media and our political parties that only two solutions are envisioned to the immigration issue. (i.e. Completely open border and citizenship for illegals versus a tightly sealed border.)
May I suggest an alternative? We need a guest worker program, because you don't need to be a citizen to work in the U.S. nor do you need to be a citizen to be paid a fair wage. We could issue ID cards with encoded biometric data. You want to come in, you show you ID and scan your fingerprint.
Side benefits:
1) If violating the law carried with it the possible permanent loss of your ID, there might be more respect for U.S. law, including liability insurance for alien drivers.
2) Easy legal entry would reduce the number of people seeking illegal entry. This would make terrorist, drug runners, and other smugglers easier to spot.
3) With less "innocent" people crossing the border, more extreme measures could be taken against criminals, with less outcry.
May I suggest an alternative? We need a guest worker program, because you don't need to be a citizen to work in the U.S. nor do you need to be a citizen to be paid a fair wage. We could issue ID cards with encoded biometric data. You want to come in, you show you ID and scan your fingerprint.
Side benefits:
1) If violating the law carried with it the possible permanent loss of your ID, there might be more respect for U.S. law, including liability insurance for alien drivers.
2) Easy legal entry would reduce the number of people seeking illegal entry. This would make terrorist, drug runners, and other smugglers easier to spot.
3) With less "innocent" people crossing the border, more extreme measures could be taken against criminals, with less outcry.
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LCpl Rich Vail
Except our real unemployment rate is well above 15% (if you go by the system that was in place in 1976)...not the "5%" our government would have us believe. When real unemployment is low, THEN "guest worker" programs are necessary, but when we have a record number of Americans not participating in the work force as well as record numbers on food stamps/public assistance, then no, we don't need "guest workers."
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SGM (Join to see)
LCpl Rich Vail As long as there are people in countries who think there is an opportunity to make money in the US, there will be immigration, legal or illegal. A Guest Worker program is a way to recognize that fact and deal with it. It does not guarantee they will find a job. But it does guarantee they will leave, or that we will know they outstayed their welcome.
Our aid programs are sufficiently generous that there are people who won't take jobs that illegal immigrants take - migrant farm workers, roofers, and so on. Yes, the number of people underemployed are not reflected in the unemployment numbers, but that doesn't mean they would take the jobs I mentioned above.
Our aid programs are sufficiently generous that there are people who won't take jobs that illegal immigrants take - migrant farm workers, roofers, and so on. Yes, the number of people underemployed are not reflected in the unemployment numbers, but that doesn't mean they would take the jobs I mentioned above.
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Maybe someone needs to talk to Israel, they've seemed to do well on this subject. Yes it can be sealed, but you need over watch on the obstacle. As SGM Erik Marquez stated in his post, there are many things which can be done to take away the incentive to come.
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Build to fences, One on the souther border. The second fence is enforcement of immigration law, eliminating social services, housing, schools, government ID, housing and jobs for illegals and they will climb back over the fence to go home.
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