Can the Reserves force you to do online training without pay?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:27:50 -0400

The Army Reserve Medics used to do re certifying training in uniform paid, for a week or two. Now its online through SWANK health online where we have to meet a minimum of hours to re qualify as Medics. I have been informed that this time/classes will be unpaid despite being mandatory. How can the Army force me to spend my personal time doing something unpaid?

Response by MSG John Wirts made Aug 27 at 2017 12:46 PM

MSG John Wirts — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:46:02 -0400

They cannot force you, but if it is required recertification training, failure to complete it would mean loss of qualification and removal from the unit. Depending on your obligation status, if you are still under obligation they could transfer you to IRR, or if you are past your obligation they may discharge you.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 1:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:03:14 -0400

The book answer is no.

...however. For some perspective. On Battle Assembly days, you are owned by your Commander for 24 hours. The alternative is for soldiers to come to Drill...as early as is needed...and leave as late as is needed to meet these hours, if you -really- want to make this a problem.

You are paid a very good amount of money to do ultimately very little at Drill. We both know it, you could be there a lot longer-- and it does happen to other Reservists. So would you rather do this on your couch drinking a beer, or stay in uniform at the drill hall and do them on Army computers that are ten times slower?

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Aug 27 at 2017 2:56 PM

CSM Thomas McGarry — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:56:20 -0400

That is what we used to do, you should aks if you can document this time and request retirement points be awarded for this time. If your not happy with this you can request to be reclassified which will probably happen anyway if you lose this MOS because of failure to maintain your required certifications.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 2:58 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:58:40 -0400

I love the lie from the Active side that says the Guard and Reserves will pay you for the credit hours of the online training completed at home. They can't force you but find ways around it. By which I mean communicate with your Sergeant. My cyber training needed to get done but no one wanted to let me do it while on AT as they had other tasks so I sat down with one of the Sergeants and explained the situation and he set aside some time for me to do it. If I didn't do the training then I would lose computer access apparently. The Sergeant I spoke to understood the long term situation of that, so it's easier to give me an hour of time to do it then not be able to do anything come next drill because I don't have access.

So just speak with your Sergeant and explain the situation. A good Sergeant I have found is good at shifting things around and getting the mission done anyway.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 3:08 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 15:08:46 -0400

Its interesting... I hear this question from a Soldier (in some variation) every couple of years. There are certain things that are expected of you when you are a Soldier (even a reservist). One of those things involves occasionally taking care of Army business outside of normal drills (this factor increases as you go up in rank). These days that can be answering an e-mail from your Commander *or* knocking out some mandatory online training. Being a Soldier--even on reserve/guard status--is not a normal job, so you cannot expect normal working hours. And certainly, unlike a normal job (or the Regular Army), the reserves and guard have to figure out how to do things within the confines of one monthly drill and one annual training. As for the pay, when you are on drill status you are getting paid 24/7, and I guarantee you are not working that entire time.

While its true you technically do not belong to the unit when not drilling, it does not mean you are not a Soldier, and if we were to limit what military tasks we do to just drill weekends, our drills would become much more problematic (and would likely fail to accomplish many other tasks).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 4:26 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 16:26:49 -0400

Mandatory training is the required training that a higher command requires and some times that directive comes straight from DOD. Now can we "Make" you do Online forms of training while you may have some free time sitting at home through the week? Short JAG answer is no. Now that we have that out of the way, we the leadership decide at what time you are released to get some shut eye, shower, and non micromanaged time as I hear it described. Today we are all asked to do more for less and with less time and resources. Your unit is only as successful as you are in being prepared for the fight. If you wont dedicate some non drill time to the mission success then you are a "You " person and definitely not a team player. Think less of self and more of your team. As you increase your knowledge and experience, you become eligible for promotions, schools and Hoo Ya stuff. Think about how often you may call that team leader or higher through the week, non pay status, to facilitate getting you put in for jump school, NCOES, or that unnecessary split you just have to have now. How about thinking of it like this, just do what you can to the best of your ability. If you truly put forth the effort, it will show. Prepare yourself to be able to survive the worst on any battlefield you find yourself traveling across.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Aug 27 at 2017 4:34 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 16:34:30 -0400

MSG John Wirts Precisely what I came here to say. Also, if there was an enlistment/re-enlistmen bonus tied to the Soldier maintaining 68W, they can see that recouped.

So, no the unit can't "make" you, but there are always choices and consequences.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 4:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 16:50:12 -0400

They can't force you to do online training when you are not attending BA. But while you are there for BA weekend, it will be a long weekend for you until the mandatory training is complete. Like someone mentioned above, sometimes you will have to get certain tasks done outside of BA that you will not get paid for, but that's the nature of the beast sometime.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 7:01 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 19:01:46 -0400

This is not unique to the Army Reserves. Many types of civilian jobs require annual recertification and/or continuing education to maintain certification. This is especially true with medical and medical support certifications. Some may pay for conferences or allow you to take some online courses during slow times during the work day. But I can tell you from experience that you often end up doing these courses on your own time at home. You are not paid, but you do it because you know it is a requirement to maintain the level of proficiency required for certification and, thus your job.

You can go to your unit a couple hours before drill and stay after release and work on the courses. After all, you are getting paid for the weekend. Think of it as a self-generated training exercise. Or, you can do it in the comfort of your own home and just attend the usual formation-to-formation time frame.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Aug 27 at 2017 8:11 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 20:11:49 -0400

You're not forced. Don't do it, find another MOS. I retired in 2006. When I did, I couldn't believe how much spare time I had at home because of all the Army Reserve business I did at home (not paid). I didn't start making money until I got to MSG because of all the travel and such. Read SGT Sean Goodrow's post. He explained things pretty good.

Response by SGT Jody Trapp made Aug 27 at 2017 8:15 PM

SGT Jody Trapp — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 20:15:33 -0400

Essentially you can submit a 1380 and try to get it paid or at least get retirement points for the hours put in.... but it's going to depend on your leadership if they allow that

Response by LTC Bill Koski made Aug 27 at 2017 11:40 PM

LTC Bill Koski — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 23:40:54 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member How much do you like being a Soldier? The Army isn't a union job. The higher up you go in rank, the more time you will have to put in to prepare for the next day, week or training event..or deployment. You have a great MOS, you can transfer that to the civilian job market easily. Take advantage of the military schools, use it on the civilian side to fund your higher education. . This way, taking online courses is like earning money, you just don't see it, its money you aren't spending to recertify on the civilian side.
And submit 1380s for the points.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2017 11:45 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 23:45:19 -0400

Some units will give you the points for submitting all your certificates before the end of the fiscal year. Those points for each classroom our should add up to a few points. And for garden Reserve, you have a one or two-day family day in December is pretty much a gimme half-day free so maybe that makes up for some of the mandatory training where you're spending hours on your own. On the courses that I know the answers for, if the program so lets me, I go straight to the challenge test it's that boring and redundant that I usually can get 70 or 80% going straight to the exam but some of the programs won't let you do that.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2017 5:17 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 05:17:11 -0400

Just so you are aware, the NREMT (National Registry) says you have to have a certain amount of hours to satisfy the continuing education requirements. On the website itself, it mentions that the SM is solely responsible for maintaining their hours towards their ceus. I would not mess around with training as I've seen people lose their emt qualifications and they were not afforded the chance to recertify or even reclass. Make your choice wisely! Hope you find what you are looking for.

Response by LTC Daren Walker made Aug 28 at 2017 9:49 AM

LTC Daren Walker — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 09:49:16 -0400

RMA days is an option if your unit has them available. It would work the same as how we pay Soldiers who complete LHI vouchers. You would submit the 1380 and course certificate to verify completion of the duty.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2017 7:14 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 19:14:07 -0400

You will (should) be paid with EBDL funds (if funds are available). You take your certificate of completion, a DA Form 1380, and a memo from the Commander and you submit those documents to your RPAC, and you will be paid for a certain amount of hours based on the training and your rank.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Aug 29 at 2017 6:42 PM

Jerry Rivas — Tue, 29 Aug 2017 18:42:12 -0400

Oh my, young man......The Army owns you 365/24/7. Nobody said life is fair, but thats just the way it is in the army

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2017 9:13 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Aug 2017 09:13:03 -0400

How exactly are you being forced to do this online training on your own time? Does your squad leader come to your house and hold you in front of a computer? In order to maintain your MOS, you are expected to complete the training. It sounds like how you accomplish that mission has been left up entirely to you. You can bring a lunch or get food to go at the DFAC (if you have a DFAC supporting you) so that you can complete this training during your lunches. You can stay past final formation or you can arrive before first formation. Have you talked to your squad leader or training NCO? They can set aside time during Battle Assembly so that you can accomplish this task, but they won't know you have an issue unless you speak up. I'm sure you are not the only medic with this dilemma in your unit. Someone needs to speak up if you all want change. As long as it's done professionally, you do not need to worry about reprisals.

You can submit a DA Form 1380 for points for any work you do at home. You should also check out the EBDL program for your unit. Your BDE might offer money for completion of online classes on your own time. My unit does, but only for certain classes like OPSEC and SERE 100.2. Check with your Unit Administrator.

There is a million ways to tackle this issue, but you need to talk to the leadership in your unit. If you feel that you are truly being treated unfairly, you can always file an IG complaint. IG shouldn't be viewed as a threat. As a leader, I welcome IG and I encourage my Soldiers to use IG if they feel that they need to. As long as you ground yourself in Regulation, you have nothing to fear. I suggest that you utilize your Chain of Command before going to IG. I also recommend arming yourself with knowledge. Use Army Publishing Directorate to download the latest ARs. You can see for yourself what rights you have and what your unit can and cannot do. Don't trust the E4 mafia or the 'barracks lawyers.' Do your own research.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 1:18 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 13:18:19 -0400

Do the training, fill out a 1380 for points and drive on. This is the reality of your commitment as a Soldier in the Reserves. Either that or reassess your commitment and change you MOS or finish up your enlistment and move on.

Response by SGT Christopher Lachcik made Sep 1 at 2017 1:29 PM

SGT Christopher Lachcik — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 13:29:27 -0400

Just do it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 7:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 19:34:16 -0400

You should be able to turn in the cert to your UA and get retirmemt points.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 9:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 21:20:16 -0400

This is like saying the Army cant expect me to do any PT or physical activity to stay in shape other than on drill weekend.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 10:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:44:30 -0500

Print out the certificates and submit for pay. One MUTA for every four hours of online training.

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Mar 30 at 2020 12:30 AM

SSG Darrell Peters — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 00:30:55 -0400

I retired as a 68W30. First SWANK health is used for CEU"s. They are certain other components you need to recertify. You will never get enough CEU's using SWANK. They are two certifications involved here one is for 68W the other is for EMT. the 68W requirements can only be met through a military recertification program secondly the EMT Recertification for National Registry Recertification. Fort Knox and Fort Campbell had both of these recertification courses and they were two weeks long. Which meant as a medic every other year your annual training would be in this course.
However, things do change. For example to get the necessary recertification credits an RST was permitted to attend a State Accredited Fire School for EMT CEU's, which usually lasts three or four days. However, that still leaves the 68W recertification class and medics assigned to non medical units with training NCO's who are not Medical need to contact Army EMS, which acts like a State EMS recertification entity. Army EMS Guidelines need to be followed to the letter!! Otherwise 68W will risk loosing their MOS.
Any out of pocket expenses should be accounted for with receipts. Before I retired their was money in the training budget to cover fees and other expenses. Lastly, these expenses are also tax deductible. I urge any medic not assigned to a Medical Unit to Reach out to Army EMS for a template of what is required to be completed over a two year period of time. Let me say that again, you have TWO YEARS to meet all the recertification Requirements donot drag your feet!!!! Work with your training NCO on the best way to get your Continuing Education Units to keep your MOS. Which is your responsibility. If the Army says their is no money, get creative but if their is a Mandatory class that Army EMS says you must have that is MOS Specific then the funds will have to be found to send you to training.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2020 2:18 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:18:53 -0400

Or just do what needs to be done. Granted I never was in the reserves, but, I spent many countless hours studying for boards, making classes, working out etc.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2020 6:21 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:21:38 -0400

Also, completing your SWANK should give you 40 or 80 hrs of pay. Unless the training pot it empty and IF that's the case you still put in for it and if it's empty: put it in AGAIN Oct. 1st