Can my NCO force me to no longer dip in uniform?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:27:42 -0400

So my situation is that a battle buddy of mine threw me a can of dip while I was ground guiding, i looked at it and put it away, I got in trouble for not paying attention, the next day my squad leader said I'm no longer allowed to dip in uniform, I've looked up AR-600-63 which covers Tobacco use can he do that?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 9:45 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:45:06 -0400

AR-600-63
7-3. Policy for controlling tobacco use
a. Tobacco use is prohibited in all DA-occupied workplaces except for designated smoking areas. The workplace includes any area inside a building or facility over which DA has custody and control, and where work is performed by military personnel, civilians, or persons under contract to the Army.

7–5. Enforcement for controlling tobacco use
Failure to comply with the prescribed policy subjects all Soldiers, Family members, retirees, and Army Civilian personnel to a variety of penalties, dependant on the nature of the violation, the status of the offender, and other relevant factors. Violation of Army policies subjects military personnel to a variety of possible administrative or disciplinary actions and it subjects civilian personnel to possible disciplinary actions. Repeat violations may result in the removal of personnel from activities or barring them from activities’ MWR facilities and youth activity centers or installations.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Apr 16 at 2018 10:13 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 22:13:36 -0400

Is he doing this for everyone or just singling you out?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2018 10:18 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 22:18:47 -0400

Not paying attention while ground guiding can get someone killed, and you were not paying attention. Learn to pick your battles.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 2:58 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 02:58:53 -0400

Understanding all of the other comments on here and the reason for this action, I'm going to steer away from that discussion and focus on the question. Bottom line, pay attention to your task. Now, there is nothing illegal about the order in and of itself. They are however, making an exception for you that is not placed on everyone in the unit. This is an IG issue if it continues. Wish I never took up smokeless tobacco, but I did. They can enforce the Army Regulations equitably with the whole unit. They can, but should not, single you out for additional, non-regulation restrictions as long as it is a part of a counseling and is related to a failure on your part. It's corrective action and a part of Soldier development. The method they are choosing is questionable as it doesn't necessarily support long term growth in response to the issue itself. It seems like more of a mean-spirited knee-jerk response. If it were me, I'd make you ground guide everything in the motor-pool for a week. The dip is a single issue at one time. You have a legit IG complaint here. Beware however. This could result in an IG investigation that determines your unit is not upholding the Army Regulation on tobacco and could result in more draconian measures for the entire unit.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 6:45 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 06:45:19 -0400

Remedial/corrective training is supposed to correct the deficiency. Considering the potential injury or worse of your inattentiveness, it is appropriate. His goal is to ensure safety and that you won't do it again. So, will this correct your deficiency?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 17 at 2018 9:15 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:15:35 -0400

I don't know- He can during certain times. I did not allow my troops (recon, etc.) to smoke in the field cause we trained just as we would fight- so most of use dipped or chewed. I do agree that it would be damn stupid for you to let someone get killed/maimed or something destroyed while dipping while ground guiding!

Response by SGT David T. made Apr 17 at 2018 12:59 PM

SGT David T. — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:59:40 -0400

Switch to cigarettes during duty hours? You would be obeying the order and not getting a nic fit lol.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 1:47 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:47:05 -0400

On the Aircraft Carrier on deployment, had a genius on the flight deck with a glass bottle of cologne in his pocket... Why would you need a bottle of cologne in your pocket on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Arabian Gulf in the middle of flight operations? Don't know, didn't ask. (For the record, you are not supposed to have anything on the flight deck that wasn't necessary for the execution of your duties, as any foreign object or debris (FOD) could cause catastrophic damage to an aircraft, injury to personnel, or both.)

So aforementioned genius is running across the landing area between traps (landings)-- which is normal, believe it or not-- when the bottle falls out of his pocket and shatters on the landing strip thereby FODding the flight deck. Had to wave-off the next few plane and direct all the inbound planes in a holding pattern while they got it all cleaned up-- which doesn't sound like much, but if you've ever witnessed the very intricate dance that is CVN FLOPS it is a BIG deal. No one was hurt, but it threw a wrench into the flight schedule.

After that little event, ALL pockets of ALL flight deck uniforms were ordered to be permanently sewed shut. Lot of complaining-- especially from the tobacco users as they didn't have a lot of time to sneak in a 'fix' between sets as it is, and now they can't have their products ready to go in their pockets, but it was a small price to pay to ensure the safety of the operation.

The moral of the story-- learn your lesson. If you try to push it as a 'singling out' thing, they are more likely to impose that policy on the whole command in order to be 'fair' (With the exception of the top brass' office-- it's good to be the king) rather than back off on imposing it on you, and that will not win you any friends amongst your fellow nicotine addicts. Admit your mistakes, show remorse, and work toward 'earning' that privilege back.
PS-- I've been a smoker likely since before you were born... While I'm not proud of that, I'm not one of those tobacco-user-haters who doesn't 'understand' the issue.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Apr 17 at 2018 1:48 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:48:09 -0400

He or she can but it should be applied to everyone who uses tobacco.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Apr 17 at 2018 2:56 PM

PFC Elijah Rose — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:56:41 -0400

He can yet he can't. He's obviously abusing his authority and just being a jerk. Who knows his motive.

Response by SPC Sam Mahler made Apr 17 at 2018 3:44 PM

SPC Sam Mahler — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 15:44:48 -0400

Why is it always a PFC doing this stuff...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 5:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:13:26 -0400

Ok man, I've read through a couple of the comments / replies on here and this is my .02 based on my understanding of the overall situation that you're presenting: You seem to be under the microscope, as others have probably correctly pointed out. While AR 600-63 does not specifically cover tobacco use in uniform, most bases do have tobacco use policies to such an extent that you can only use tobacco products at a certain location (smoked, smokeless, or electronic). More oft than the not, chewing tobacco is overlooked if people police up their area / don't let it distract from their other duties...which you may have had a bit of an issue with. As, from the looks of it, a gradual ratcheting up of the level of NCO pain didn't work, the next logical thing to do is to take it to the boss to have him / her do what they can to pull your head out of your fourth point (from a leadership perspective). If your NCO thinks you can be salvaged as a Soldier, expect them to push for a Summarized, if not, look for a Company grade or higher (also depending on the duration / thickness of your counseling packet).

While you're going to feel like you're singled out (I did once upon a time when I was in your shoes for something different), take it as a learning point and use this as a wake-up call. Redouble your efforts and it won't be long until you're the NCO that's looking at junior Soldiers doing the same things you used to do and wondering if you were ever like that....

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 17 at 2018 5:30 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:30:39 -0400

I put forth my thoughts on the tobacco issue on another's reply, but my curiosity is why you seem to be more upset about whether this NCO didn't treat you in a fair manor about dipping, instead of being more concerned with the threatened Article 15 for the sock issue you added into one of the replies.
Whether you are in the right or in the wrong in either case, I'd suggest focusing your energies on the bigger issue of the two.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Apr 17 at 2018 9:27 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:27:58 -0400

Your looking in the wrong regs, I highly recommend that you chose your battles wisely. If you decide to stay in you will bring unwanted attention over something trivial in the scheme of things.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Apr 17 at 2018 11:28 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:28:42 -0400

Well your squad leader identified a discrepancy and is doing his part to correct that discrepancy. Consider this though... most government installations are tobacco free installations except when in designated tobacco zones. So realistically, for the most part the only time you'll get your tobacco fix is when you're out of uniform.

Don't focus on the negatives and think of how much money you can save.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 11:56 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:56:22 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member - Granted I was Navy and I can only pass along something I saw one day.
I was sitting in one of our F-14's checking and maintaining all of my duties of my MOS. As that my squadron was deployed to the carrier for a few months my head was always on a swivel while on the flight deck.
Over about 50 feet away was a yellow shirt guiding an aircraft around under it's own power. When I noticed some purple shirt walking up to him not really looking around. As this purple shirt reached up to touch the yellow shirts arm to talk to him. Well this other yellow shirt damn near did a football tackle on the purple shirt. And it was slightly funny because that second yellow shirt had Senior Chief (E-8) markings on his cranial helmet. That poor purple shirt did not know what the hell hit him and was trying to defend himself as he was falling but the Senior Chief had his flotation jacket firmly and immediately took that guy off the Flight Deck.
My walk away thoughts ?
Never, Never, ever touch or bother anyone while they are guiding equipment.
Personally I would go have some not so kind words to my buddy. Starting with something like (You Stupid Ferk Arshoe), just saying.