Can I be counseled if the counselor wasn't there? Can I be counseled more than a day afterward?

2018-09-04T11:49:02-04:00

So I have a question about counseling statements because I cannot find any info on this subject, or my situation rather. So currently I am deployed and as you would think there's not much to do outside of uso and working out. The other night myself and a few of my friends were hanging out, not being disrespectful or anything, and we went to the px to get some cokes and snacks and one of my friends asked how much it would cost him for me to drink a bottle of syrup available in the px... Now I hate syrup but I told him for twenty bucks that bottle is a goner. So on and so forth a bottle of syrup turned into a bottle and afterwards I ran into the uso to grab a toothbrush and toothpaste because my mouth tasted like a spewing maple tree. Once again my friends decided yea let's keep this going, and paid me to eat the toothpaste (travel size) by the end of the night I had 65 extra bucks and was feeling pretty happy, hadn't eaten that day and it was already 2100 and I didn't need to after that. About three days later my NCOIC found out about it through someone else in my section and had my squad leader council me. Not a problem, I know it made me look a fool if anything, and included in the counseling was a 1000 word essay, not on military bearing, but "write a 1000 word essay on the negative effects of drinking syrup And toothpaste and how it can affect your health and your military career And consequences of your actions that fall under the UCMJ process"
Now I really worked hard and research the health affects of drinking both and found that, it's not a big deal (I'm a cook mind you and have been a culimarian far before joining) this essay was due below 24 hours after being counseled and I got it done with a valid argument and now, a day after turning it in and about 4 or 5 since the act my NCOIC had my squad leader change the counseling so that I have to rewrite it because it " looks like you (I) plagiarized it because there are many big words"
Am I obligated to rewrite this or not, because I believe not? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Response by SFC Harry H. made Sep 4 at 2018 12:18 PM

2018-09-04T12:18:15-04:00

It sounds like they are concerned about the fraud, waste, and abuse of the syrup along with the the possibility of getting sick from consuming to much to fast. If you were to make yourself sick and you couldn't perform your duties then that could be an article 15.

Either way, I use to tell my Soldiers, unless it is immoral, unethical or will get you or someone else hurt or killed, you do it. Re writing an essay isn't any of those and perhaps that was the point all along. Just like going on a 2 mile platoon run when all along the PSG knew he was going to get 5 miles out of you.

Just chalk it up as a rookie mistake and move forward, getting back in the good graces of your leadership.

Response by SGT David T. made Sep 4 at 2018 1:12 PM

2018-09-04T13:12:44-04:00

So let me get this right. You got counseled and had to write an essay because you drank maple syrup and ate toothpaste. That has got to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Your NCO really needs to find a hobby or a deployment spouse. That aside, rewrite the parts with "big words" using little words so your NCO can understand them. One piece of advice, dumb down your vocabulary when dealing with higher ranking people. They tend to feel threatened when their troops are smarter than they are.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Sep 4 at 2018 1:59 PM

2018-09-04T13:59:26-04:00

Is this real? This seems like a troll post.

What was the plan of action in the initial counseling? If you achieved it, then the NCO needs to close out that counseling and it should be done. If he or she feels you did not achieve the plan of action, then he or she closes out the initial and writes a new one.

I had to do that once because a soldier absolutely failed to meet the plan of action - and yes it was an essay. That little jerk just copied and pasted a bunch of stuff so I had to close the initial and counsel him again.

However this is the stupidest reason to counsel someone - this should have been a verbal. I would have told one of my soldiers "Are you stupid? Don't do that again." Not waste my time on a 4856 or his or her time.

If you did what was asked of you, take it up to the next person in your chain. It's not your fault your NCO is an idiot and can't read.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Sep 4 at 2018 2:01 PM

2018-09-04T14:01:47-04:00

Re-write the paper. After reading your post, it is clear that you are not very educated which is not a big deal. You're a PFC not an officer. I highly doubt you wrote an essay using "big words" then turn around and write this post. Your NCOIC can probably tell the difference. Just re-write the paper and stop doing stupid shit.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Sep 4 at 2018 5:02 PM

2018-09-04T17:02:00-04:00

Thank heavens I'm retired.
Yes the counselor can counsel you if they were not there. DUI and Safety Counseling's for accidents are examples of common things Soldiers get counseled for when the leader wasn't present at the event.
You must not have read the use statement on your toothpaste (yes I have been that bored), all I have ever seen tell you not to ingest it other than for brushing your teeth. Can cause you to vomit and give you the trots, if you're a cook that could cause you to be unavailable for duty. Same results go for syrup except the massive sugar rush you could expect to get as it processes through your system and there's no use warning on the label.

I've said numerous times that I despised and despise the use of essays for corrective training. Nearly all I ever saw failed to have a clearly defined task, condition, standard or cite what collegiate format to use in writing and citing of references. Comparison/ contrast, argumentative, persuasive..... That and Soldiers should be writing in the Army writing style, brief and concise understood in a single reading with the bottom line up front, see AR 25-50. Why take 1000 words to say what you can in a few.

Part of counseling is the follow up, so if the leader feels you failed to achieve whatever standard they set (should be based on an actual measurable doctrinal, safety, or legal standard), Yes again; you can be made to redo the task until you achieve the standard.
Check out FM 6-22 Leadership, appendix B, Counseling.

Don't eat crayons, the ones from China have lead in them.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 4 at 2018 10:03 PM

2018-09-04T22:03:46-04:00

_Yes, you can be counseled if the counselor was not there.
_Yes, you can be counseled more than a day after.
_Yes, the order to re-write the essay is a legal order, so immediate, intelligent obedience is the standard. If you know the what and how of a legal order, do it. Ask about the why once you are done.

PS I think essays are BS punishment and demeaning. A three minute conversation will tell any leader whether or not the subordinate learned the necessary lessons. A few hours of supervised EMI will be enough to make anyone worth keeping in the service think twice about being a jackass.

Response by LTC William Gilmore made Sep 8 at 2018 8:57 PM

2018-09-08T20:57:45-04:00

Fluoride poisoning from toothpaste is a big deal. You can die from it!

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Sep 9 at 2018 10:46 AM

2018-09-09T10:46:57-04:00

Formal counciling is ridiculous IMO, your Ncoic should have just smoked you or volunteered your ass for shit details until he was satisfied. The pussification of the military. But your not too far out of basic, what part of they treat you like a man and expect you to act like one went over your head? . Listen to the MSG and stop doing stupid shit, your going to be that guy forever now, the guy who ate toothpaste. And it will follow you too once it's in your jacket.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Sep 9 at 2018 9:44 PM

2018-09-09T21:44:31-04:00

It sounds like the NCOIC does certain things... because he thinks that's is just what NCOs do. On the one hand, you might easily get it reversed because the whole thing is obviously stupid. On the other hand, if you raise any objection whatsoever to the NCOIC he'll definitely get really mad. If you argue with him you could easily get another counselling with a bigger punishment. I know, it shouldn't be so complicated, but there are a few options you can do:

1) Fullfil the letter your punishment then forget it happened.
2) Take a devil may care approach and say what you said here directly to the NCOIC. You'll get yelled at but who cares, if they decide to punish you for nothing it's on them.
3) Ignore the counselling and everything pertaining to it. You'll get a bit unpopular but if the NCOIC wants to push you around then either all your peers will know about it and/or his boss and then it will be obvious how petty this is.

Response by SSG Mark DeTillion made Jun 28 at 2019 8:42 PM

2019-06-28T20:42:15-04:00

Holy shit! I got paid for eating a damn lizard and toad in 1976. What kind of horseshit is this? I made $30. Did you have to drink milk too? Was it right out of the breast? Write the damn paper private.