Can I be counseled and forced to run every duty day for running a 17:45 two mile?

2022-03-10T17:48:03-05:00

This morning our squad had a 2-mile run. I am in aviation by the way. I would not consider myself to be high speed with fitness, I choose to focus my effort in my performance and knowledge with my job. I am in good physical shape, never been taped, and am not over weight. After our run this morning, a majority of our squads (soldiers) finished around 17-19 min two-mile. And two of our NCOS that finished after us proceeded to get angry and explain that we aren’t putting in effort. And that they can and will counsel us for a “Lack Of Effort” and on top of that, we will run every single day now until we are faster. They proceeded to tell us that back in the day of the APFT, we wouldn’t even be in the Army. I don’t necessarily disagree with them. But the APFT is not the standard. The ACFT is. And we are upholding and exceeding that standard of 21:00. So is it true that I can be expecting a counseling for a lack of effort and forced to run every day, risking injury. Please keep in mind that I had set a goal today to do better than my last run. A majority of us put in our best effort today. Guys came back puking and breathless. But we did not uphold the “opinion based” standard the NCOS have made. Also please keep in mind that a majority of the NCOS finished after a couple of us and still proceeded to say all of this. Any advice? Should I use the open door policy, because this seemed out of line. I am still fairly new to the Army. One year and seven months in. Waivered to specialists.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2022 6:02 PM

2022-03-10T18:02:26-05:00

Can you be counselled? Yes. Can you be forced (ordered) to run every day? Possible. Is this idiotic? Yes. Tell ya what. Take the counseling, and then take that to the 1SG and Commander thru their open door policy. Making you run every day will destroy your knees.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2022 9:24 PM

2022-03-10T21:24:12-05:00

Yes, 21min is the standard for the ACFT, after five other events.
If you are just warming up and running, and reasonably fit and under 35, then 16min for two miles is a reasonable and obtainable time.

Running every day won't "destroy your knees", and I assume you are really talking about five days a week.
Six months after I tore my ACL, I started running six days a week and maintained that for 10 years with no overuse injuries.
There are many runners who run seven days a week most of their adult lives with no issues, not just pros, but many more who are just people who like to run.
But you do have to vary the distance and pace.
Doing the same run every day will not result in improvement and will increase the risk of overuse injury.

If you and your partners were "breathless" after that last run, well, that's what running is like when you put effort into it. If you can easily carry on a conversation during a "run", then you aren't running, you're shuffling.

I appreciate that you want to focus your efforts on "performance and knowledge of your job", but the Army would prefer that its people put their best effort into everything they're asked to do.
And since nothing else is going on during PT, might as well put that best effort into PT while you're there.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Mar 11 at 2022 7:28 AM

2022-03-11T07:28:18-05:00

Morning young Padawan. I am not up to date as I use to be, retired in 2012. I understand that the old APFT is out the window and a new fitness test as been instituted. Now in that test with all the extra events and the run time changed to where this is a good time, then they, NCOs, have nothing to bitch able. If they counsel you, read it thoroughly making sure it is written exactly for the event that they bitched about. You still have to sign it and I believe that there's a rebuttal section for you to write in. They can't hold you to an old APFT standard since it no longer exists.
I ask which ranks were these NCOs? Was your PSG present? After your "counseling" ask to speak to your PSG. If the PSG doesn't correct this then inform the PSG that you want to use the open door policy to speak with the 1SG then the CO. Always want to keep things at the lowest level if it can be handled there.

Not everyone is a professional runner. We ran everyday. Sometimes it was 2 miles or it could be 6 miles at an "airborne" shuffle. I still was in the high 13s to mid 14s on the 2 mile run. Even at Fort Carson.

For future knowledge if you PSC to a new Post. Make sure in your initial counseling that the PSG in his expectations of you, it's listed what Platoon standards are in the new PT test and other areas. This will save you from this type of stupidity and give you goals to help you stands out among your peers.

Good luck.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 11 at 2022 8:42 AM

2022-03-11T08:42:43-05:00

Yes they can counsel you if they feel you aren't performing - and they can have you do extra PT. It used to be called remedial PT but I think they changed the name. You don't have to fail a PT test or ht/wt to be put on remedial PT.

The 21 min minimum for the ACFT is also after five other events - so just because you can run 17-19 min just on a run day doesn't necessarily mean you can run it after doing all those other events.

When I led ability group runs (when I could still run before I got hurt) I finished after people because I was leading the run and I would be with whoever was lagging behind. That doesn't mean I was that slow. I usually led C group (which actually I think made me faster when I did that).

I don't think it's the best idea to make someone run every single day especially if they want you to get faster - not just long distance running. If they truly want you to get faster they should incorporate other exercises too. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with them counseling you to do remedial PT.

You can always use the open door policy to talk to the 1SG or commander sure. I would run it up through your NCOIC/PSG before going through them though. Unless they are one of the NCOICs.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2022 2:28 PM

2022-03-11T14:28:33-05:00

I was a 260ish PT guy for a while....had to do remedial because our unit standard was 270......You are NOT in good physical shape if you run a 17:00+ min 2 mile, stop lying to yourself. You can focus on being good at your job, but from 0600-0730...your job is PT. The remainder of the day you can be great at your job.

Don't be mad at your NCOs for trying to ensure you succeed.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 11 at 2022 2:57 PM

2022-03-11T14:57:27-05:00

You are okay with just meeting the standard. That’s good for you. But for me I would never fly in any aircraft that was serviced by a sm that was ok with just doing the minimum .

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 11 at 2022 7:47 PM

2022-03-11T19:47:54-05:00

A counseling statement is a record of a conversation. So, yes, you can be counseled... For just about anything, really. Provided that what your statement says reflects what the conversation said.

For some reason, the Counseling statement is STILL viewed as a negative thing. It is not. If what is being said (and documented) is accurate, and you feel that it reflects negatively, then the onus is on you to change yourself and correct the negative aspects. If what is being said (and documented) is *not* accurate, there is a spot to write "your side of the story." Being counseled is not a negative event - even being "negatively counseled." It identifies areas for growth - which is a good thing.

As for making you do PT, well.... As long as it is on "Army time," if that is what your NCOs feel is the best thing for you to be doing then that is what you do. It is up to the NCOs to train you in ALL aspects of your job - and physical fitness is part of your job. If it gets into you having to "stay after," then it becomes punitive. And they cannot punish you unless you have failed to meet an actual standard, which is not the case here. But, a word to the wise: They CAN strongly encourage you to work out on "your time," to include working out with them in organized PT "after hours." You are not required to participate, but expect refusal to be documented. Not as a punitive action, but in case you DO fail an eventual ACFT, they have documented the efforts they have taken to try to help you, which you refused.

I will grant you that there are plenty of NCOs in the Army that are just dicks. They get power and want to (ab)use it. But, in my experience, these are FAR outnumbered by NCOs who legitimately want to help every Soldier under them - and many who are not. I strongly encourage you to take a step back and lose the defensive attitude. Take a look and see if maybe, JUST MAYBE, those NCOs are actually trying to square you away. They might not be. They might just be dicks. But try looking at the situation and assuming they are not, and see how it looks then.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2022 8:31 PM

2022-03-11T20:31:08-05:00

Everyone said what I would have said but I did want to point out that the ACFT is not the test of record. Currently we have no test of record. We need to be ready for anything. With all the push back and false starts with the ACFT. It could always get changed. And if suddenly we are required to take an APFT. 17-19 minutes won’t cut it for most.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 13 at 2022 2:48 PM

2022-03-13T14:48:07-04:00

Yes you can be counseled. If this time is a unit standard they are likely able to use duty time to assist you in meeting this goal. We would need a little more info. I can say that this is not at all a an unreasonable run time for even a group. Another point you mention being aviation, are you implying you have less reasoning to work on cardio than other MOS’s.

Anyway, lead the way.