Posted on Aug 8, 2015
Can an NCO force a service member to miss an appointment out of punishment/corrective training?
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Question / Scenario: I've skimmed through some regulation and I can't seem to find anything that directly relates to an appointment reg.
The Soldier had an appointment early in the morning at a location off post as part of their transition process out of the Army. The NCO and the soldier agreed on a plan of action that the soldier would show up in the morning and report for accountability and then leave to their appointment. The Soldier that morning over slept and missed formation. Contact was established in which the soldier confirmed they were alive and safe. During the phone call the NCO stated, "that as the soldiers NCO he [the NCO] doesn't have to let the soldier attend their appointment. The soldier told the NCO, "that if he did stop him from going to his appointment because he overslept that he would go to legal assistance.". The NCO did hold the soldier over and forced the soldier to go to work instead of their appointment. My question to the community is, “is this a over reach in an NCO's powers?”. I believe there was no corrective training administered, just a punishment; taking away a soldiers appointment only because they accidentally overslept. These two events do not correlate except as being part of a plan of events that were established for the day. I've found hints that state the command can request or change an appointment or surgery time if it were to negatively effect the mission. I haven't found anywhere that more or less states that a NCO has the authority to punish/correctively train a soldier by revoking their appointments. I have read 27-1/ 600-20 that outline how corrective training will be within the lines of the offense committed. I disagree with the NCO and believe that it's outside the scopes of the NCOs power and this is an issue that a commander would have to decide. He believes it has to do with accountability, that if you can't make it to formation then he you can't make it to your appointment. Which accountability being the number one thing a NCO is responsible for, a NCO can cancel an appointment for a soldier as a punishment/corrective training. I think the soldier should have been punished for over sleeping. I.E. Calling 20 min before formation to confirm they are awake, having to show up 15-20 min earlier than normal, or showing up for a early accountability formation over the weekend. These are examples of corrective training for the incident that occurred. In this incident the Soldier also has no other counselings that mention them having a previous issue with being late or missing formations. What does the Rally Point community think about this?
UPDATE:
The soldier showed me his 4856 today and it mentions how he apologized and was attempting to make it to the formation even though he knew he was already late. Also, first attempted contact to reach the SM was 30 min after formation. (When I had soldiers, I was calling them 5 min before formation if they weren't there. (I thought that was kind of strange))
The SM also went really deep overboard and threatened the Chain of command with a congressional inquiry. He told me that [along these lines I don't remember verbatim], "I have a spotless record here, I make one mistake that I apologized for and took ownership and my NCO threatens to stop my entire employment separation because he wants to flex his chest at me." (I do not agree with this, this is jumping many many many people in the chain and not using a checks and balances system properly)
The CoC has backed down. The Soldier has <30 days left in the Army and pressing any charges will seem to cause more damage for the CoC and soldier.
UPDATE2: Forgot to put this in the other update. The Soldier doesn't belong to this command. The SM is on a detail until they transition out. There was no 4187 or appointment orders placing him under the commander that he's on a detail for. I don't know if that plays a factor or not, can a more senior person help me on this?
The Soldier had an appointment early in the morning at a location off post as part of their transition process out of the Army. The NCO and the soldier agreed on a plan of action that the soldier would show up in the morning and report for accountability and then leave to their appointment. The Soldier that morning over slept and missed formation. Contact was established in which the soldier confirmed they were alive and safe. During the phone call the NCO stated, "that as the soldiers NCO he [the NCO] doesn't have to let the soldier attend their appointment. The soldier told the NCO, "that if he did stop him from going to his appointment because he overslept that he would go to legal assistance.". The NCO did hold the soldier over and forced the soldier to go to work instead of their appointment. My question to the community is, “is this a over reach in an NCO's powers?”. I believe there was no corrective training administered, just a punishment; taking away a soldiers appointment only because they accidentally overslept. These two events do not correlate except as being part of a plan of events that were established for the day. I've found hints that state the command can request or change an appointment or surgery time if it were to negatively effect the mission. I haven't found anywhere that more or less states that a NCO has the authority to punish/correctively train a soldier by revoking their appointments. I have read 27-1/ 600-20 that outline how corrective training will be within the lines of the offense committed. I disagree with the NCO and believe that it's outside the scopes of the NCOs power and this is an issue that a commander would have to decide. He believes it has to do with accountability, that if you can't make it to formation then he you can't make it to your appointment. Which accountability being the number one thing a NCO is responsible for, a NCO can cancel an appointment for a soldier as a punishment/corrective training. I think the soldier should have been punished for over sleeping. I.E. Calling 20 min before formation to confirm they are awake, having to show up 15-20 min earlier than normal, or showing up for a early accountability formation over the weekend. These are examples of corrective training for the incident that occurred. In this incident the Soldier also has no other counselings that mention them having a previous issue with being late or missing formations. What does the Rally Point community think about this?
UPDATE:
The soldier showed me his 4856 today and it mentions how he apologized and was attempting to make it to the formation even though he knew he was already late. Also, first attempted contact to reach the SM was 30 min after formation. (When I had soldiers, I was calling them 5 min before formation if they weren't there. (I thought that was kind of strange))
The SM also went really deep overboard and threatened the Chain of command with a congressional inquiry. He told me that [along these lines I don't remember verbatim], "I have a spotless record here, I make one mistake that I apologized for and took ownership and my NCO threatens to stop my entire employment separation because he wants to flex his chest at me." (I do not agree with this, this is jumping many many many people in the chain and not using a checks and balances system properly)
The CoC has backed down. The Soldier has <30 days left in the Army and pressing any charges will seem to cause more damage for the CoC and soldier.
UPDATE2: Forgot to put this in the other update. The Soldier doesn't belong to this command. The SM is on a detail until they transition out. There was no 4187 or appointment orders placing him under the commander that he's on a detail for. I don't know if that plays a factor or not, can a more senior person help me on this?
Posted in these groups: 
Corrective Training
Army Regulations
Corrective Training Army Regulations
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 20
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The simple answer is No "BUT".....is it mandatory, is it something elective, does it interfere with mission accomplishment and etc.....based on the situation, I believe the unit was trying to help the Soldier out here but there was an agreement that was broken between the Soldier and NCO and thus created a conflict...
SO, the Soldier & NCO agreed to a plan of action that the Soldier would show up in the morning for accountability. The Soldier oversleeps and is playing the victim card because the NCO insists that the Soldier reports as they both agreed?
There's a couple ways to look at this - the Soldier cannot make the appointment if the Soldier cannot make accountability formation.....it is the NCO that is going to get squashed when the Soldier shows up unshaved, unshowered and/or unprepared.
Could the NCO have handled it differently, yes. He could have allowed the Soldier to make the appointment (assuming there was time to make it still), instructed the Soldier to report to work after the appointment and then handled business then (counseling with a plan of action to correct the piss poor performance).
Sounds to me that the Soldier decided to sleep in and go to the appointment, called the NCO to let him know he was alive and assumed he would be good.....what sucks about the situation is you cannot get the formation back, you will have always missed the formation and you cannot get the appointment time back as you've missed that as well. So, what has happened since the missed formation & missed appointment?
I'm curious to hear the Paul Harvey on this one.....the rest of the story.
SO, the Soldier & NCO agreed to a plan of action that the Soldier would show up in the morning for accountability. The Soldier oversleeps and is playing the victim card because the NCO insists that the Soldier reports as they both agreed?
There's a couple ways to look at this - the Soldier cannot make the appointment if the Soldier cannot make accountability formation.....it is the NCO that is going to get squashed when the Soldier shows up unshaved, unshowered and/or unprepared.
Could the NCO have handled it differently, yes. He could have allowed the Soldier to make the appointment (assuming there was time to make it still), instructed the Soldier to report to work after the appointment and then handled business then (counseling with a plan of action to correct the piss poor performance).
Sounds to me that the Soldier decided to sleep in and go to the appointment, called the NCO to let him know he was alive and assumed he would be good.....what sucks about the situation is you cannot get the formation back, you will have always missed the formation and you cannot get the appointment time back as you've missed that as well. So, what has happened since the missed formation & missed appointment?
I'm curious to hear the Paul Harvey on this one.....the rest of the story.
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MSG (Join to see)
CSM, well-said. Stole any little bit of thunder I had. Overall, I agree with you, but I don't like to make any assumptions (as plausible as it sounds). I hope somebody has mentored the NCO to ensure that he/she doesn't "knee-jerk" react, even if they know the Soldier is in the wrong. With Legal today, you have to have tight shot group (should it need to go that far). In this case, the NCOs alleged inappropriate reaction may have caused more problems in the long run. Should this be one of those Soldiers that is good at alibis. I too would love to hear the Paul Harvey (I miss that guy).
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As a retired NCO myself, I would have get the overslept Soldier and take him to his appointment and then back to work. Also I would write him up for missing formation. Done deal.
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Not if its medical or dental, but if its to get a car stereo installed or something in that nature where it doesn't cost the Soldier money or the Command headaches because the appointment was missed, then it is possible. Is right, probably not. The NCO probably needs to come up with a correction plan that is tailored around the units duty day and missions and also take into consideration any prior scheduled appointments or commitments made by the Soldier.
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MSG (Join to see)
Sir, the Soldier for Life program has a strong command emphasis. But, you are right to ensure that the corrective training focuses on fixing the "lateness" issue, not punishing the Soldier.
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SSG Richard Reilly
Actually a commander can dictate you to miss a medical and dental appointment however. The commander better have a good reason for it when whomever is his boss asks him why you missed it.
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