Can America charge somebody for treason if they try to join ISIS?

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:20:56 -0500

I keep hearing the arguments over the proposed legislation that would allow people who have tried to leave to join ISIS, Al Shabaab, Al Qaeda, etc. to have their United States Citizenship revoked and for them to be banned from returning to the country.

The argument as I have heard it, is that there is currently a policy in place that allows for the revocation of citizenship for anyone who leaves to join an enemy military, but that these terrorist groups do not fall into the proper role to qualify under this law, and hence the reason for the proposed legislation.

My question is, what part of leaving to fight for the enemy, during a time of war, doesn't qualify for treason? Why are we talking about revocation of citizenship, and not a streamline to the firing line? Do we even charge people for treason anymore?

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Dec 23 at 2015 10:41 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:41:37 -0500

Americans found to provide support for terrorist groups are generally charged with "conspiring and attempting to provide material support to terrorist organizations." Those who commit attacks can be charged with other capital punishment crimes such as murder, for example as what Nidal Hassan or Timothy McVeigh were charged with.

Fewer than 30 people have ever been charged with treason in US history according to the article below, so it's not really fair to ask "don't we charge for treason anymore", since we never really did. The last case of treason I could find in the United States was 1952... not sure if anybody can find something newer.

Generally speaking, treason seems to be reserved for people who cause a material impact or threat to the safety of the US Government or the United States as a nation. While tragic on the human level, individual terrorist attacks don't do that, and while terrorist groups can unfortunately hurt US citizens, they don't pose an existential threat to the continuation of our nation... which appears to be more in line with the higher threshold for a charge of treason.

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Few-ever-charged-or-convicted-of-treason-in-U-S-2843242.php

Few ever charged or convicted of treason in U.S. history / Many Americans fought for other...

Few ever charged or convicted of treason in U.S. history / Many Americans fought for other religious, political, cultural beliefs In grainy video footage, John Walker proclaimed himself a jihadi, or holy warrior, who quickly become mesmerized by the Taliban's vision of a pure Islamic state while studying religion in Pakistan. A videotape has emerged that shows CIA agent Mike Spann, 32, interrogating an unresponsive Walker shortly before the...

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 11:09 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:09:36 -0500

Call me crazy, but in my opinion I think if you are fighting for the enemy you deserve a quick death; if you are an American citizen and fighting for the enemy you deserve due process and a quick death... or a slow death... that's up for debate.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Dec 23 at 2015 11:32 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:32:05 -0500

I don't think its constitutional. But I wish that it was one of the debate question .

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Dec 23 at 2015 11:38 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:38:25 -0500

Here's What the Constitution says on the matter...
According to Article III, Section 3:

" Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Article III, Section 3 authorizes Congress to set the penalties for treason, but not to change the definition or create degrees of treason. The federal treason statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2381, mirrors the Constitution’s language and imposes minimum penalties of five years’ imprisonment and a $10,000 fine. A conviction bars the defendant from holding any federal office and carries the possibility of the death penalty.

As to potential traitors.... "Treason doesn’t apply to foreign nationals who don’t owe any allegiance to the U.S. However, it does apply to American citizens holding dual citizenship. It also applies to aliens domiciled in the U.S. who owe a temporary allegiance to the country while living there."

Lastly, here are the legal elements required to charge or prosecute the crime of treason.

" the defendant owes allegiance to the government, and
the defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either

levying war against the government, or
giving aid or comfort to the government’s enemies.

Because treason must be intentional, someone who unintentionally aids the enemy, or is forced to by duress or coercion, isn’t guilty of treason. (See The Defense of Duress.) There can be no accomplice liability for treason; every participant is considered a principal."

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 24 at 2015 6:28 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:28:45 -0500

Two points:

1) Treason is DEFINED by the Constitution, explicitly in Art 3, Section 3 (as SSG Gerhard S. mentioned. It has VERY strict requirements. Because of that, we generally do not charge people specifically with Treason but with other crimes, as LTC Yinon Weiss stated.

2) The US has BIRTHRIGHT Citizenship, and a NATURALIZATION process. There is no mechanism in place to "strip" Birthright Citizenship. There is for Naturalized Citizens, IF certain conditions and/or timelines are met. But generally speaking, the Government does not have the Power to take away Citizenship. This is considered a Right, and a Protected Right at that.

However, what can happen is we can "void" the person's Passport or travel privileges. Every Sovereign Nation has the Power to control access to their borders. They can choose who to allow in. By voiding a passport or making someone persona non-grata, we effectively ban them from movement. This is the next best thing to stripping their Citizenship.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 6:34 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:34:33 -0500

Honestly, I think letting them leave the USA and live under ISIS, if that is their heart's desire, is punishment enough.
Have a nice life, guy. Don't come back.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Dec 24 at 2015 11:42 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 11:42:49 -0500

Maybe, but they certainly charge them with conspiracy, terrorism, and a whole load of other crimes that would put them away forever.

Response by SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT made Dec 24 at 2015 2:56 PM

SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 14:56:02 -0500

They should and if needed deport them with no chance of reentry

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2015 12:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Dec 2015 00:16:17 -0500

Charge them! Supporting them and not your country by means of joining he US military , so yes charge them! I mean we as military and foreign still have the mind set of protecting our country both foreign and domestic!

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 25 at 2015 11:15 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 25 Dec 2015 23:15:45 -0500

You would think so. You would hope so but Historically the Treason and Sedition Laws are very ancient and very hard to make stick. I don't know that they ever have now the newer Terrorism Laws probably are more Legally correct and more Applicable.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Dec 26 at 2015 8:17 PM

SSG Michael Scott — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:17:44 -0500

Yes

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 7:21 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 07:21:24 -0500

No, we stay away from "treason" nowadays. If we start using that word again ... I think it will start reminding people that who are actually traitors .... out there.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jul 21 at 2016 1:55 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Thu, 21 Jul 2016 13:55:18 -0400

Just to turn your back on your spouse, family, friends, status, place in life, freedoms....If you go don't look back.