Can a SNCO authorize something that a junior officer has to enforce?

PFC Jon Stoltzfus — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 19:56:23 -0500

I know officers out-rank NCOs, but if a SNCO temporarily authorizes something to a group of soldiers, does a junior officer have to enforce it? Example: SMA Grinston is visiting the 505th IR and is wearing a fleece cap because it’s cold out, therefore everybody in the battalion pulls theirs out. Although it’s on a questionably cool morning that a company commander wouldn’t normally authorize. Does he let it slide out of respect to the SMA, or is there a regulation that gives the SMA authority over CPT so-and-so? Completely hypothetical question out of curiosity.

Response by SGT Robert Pryor made Jan 29 at 2020 8:12 PM

SGT Robert Pryor — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:12:22 -0500

Sometimes it goes beyond regulations. It is not wise for a junior officer to lock horns with a SMA (who no doubt has personal friends in a position to make the junior officer's life miserable). That said, I feel the SMA should choose their battles too. I know, this doesn't answer your question with regards to the legal part. I admit I haven't a clue on that part. Leaders should know when to get along to get along.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2020 8:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:28:21 -0500

Some times, there is no logic, rhyme or reason...other than leaders want everyone to look uniform. For example, this one time at FT Irwin many many many moons ago, we were in formation with our sleeves rolled up. Someone saw 1SG making his way to the formation with sleeves down. Everyone in formation, to include the Officers, went sleeves down.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2020 8:53 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:53:18 -0500

I would let it slide. Especially something so minor. The guy has earned my respect through his years in service. Too many young officers try to play the rank game I think. Just because rank says you can doesn’t mean you should. Sometimes you just need to pick your battles.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jan 29 at 2020 11:31 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 23:31:43 -0500

Goes back to picking your battles. I would not touch this but if the SMA got into it with me over medical care, now it is a different story. If the SMA of the Army read this, he would expect me as a seasoned critical care and ER RN to stand my ground taking care of his soldiers. Picking battles.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2020 12:41 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:41:41 -0500

I’ve personally witnessed my brigade commander (a COL) given then SMA Dailey a WIDE berth when he came to visit 2/1 on Fort Bliss a few years back. Everybody who has been in the Army for more than a few months knows that CSMs “unofficially” wear the rank of their commanders. When you screw with the CSM you aren’t really screwing with him/her, you are screwing with your (likely) BN/BDE commander’s representative. That rarely ends well. (SMA Dailey was highly professional when interacting with all that he met. The man is extremely polished and within a few seconds it was very clear to me why he was selected for the position. )

That being said, you are equally unlikely to see a CSM addressing a commissioned officer in the same manner that they would say a Junior NCO. In my experience (and yes I have experience lol), CSMs are almost always the most professional soldiers in the unit. They know what right looks like.

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Jan 30 at 2020 1:47 AM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 01:47:56 -0500

Last I checked, fleece cap is authorized anyway. It doesn't have to be approved by the Commander - Company or otherwise. I'm pretty sure the reg says that Commanders can't restrict the wear of approved 670-1 uniform items except for ceremonies and something else. I'd have to go look it up again.

But practically speaking, if I were a Junior Officer, I'd assume that the SMA is speaking on behalf of and in agreeance with the higher commander.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jan 30 at 2020 5:37 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 05:37:16 -0500

I have been out a while and all sorts of things are authorized now that were not when I wore a uniform. Also in my day all sorts of fahgazy stuff went on as well. Commanders across the board authorize all sorts of things from platoon on up to Div Commanders. Its almost impossible to keep up with who authorizes what, where and when in addition to regulations, policies and ALARACT messages.
I was in for over 3 decades and the rule of thumb was to follow the last directive until a new one pops up. When you have a good or great CSM you don't purposely dance in an impact area unless you have zero sense of self preservation. I only recall very young 2Lt's on occasion attempting engage CSM's and it did not end well. So a Captain has been in awhile and understands how things work.
About 15 years ago I was down at the 1 week CSM course at Ft Leavenworth when I ran into a CSM wearing a full color version of the BRO patch on his ACU's. Even though the Regs state this is a no-go and the Div Commander was told by big Army to cease and desist with this practice it was still going on. I approached the CSM and respectfully appraised him of my concern. After some special facial demonstrations and grunted acknowledgments he asked me to go away. I smiled and walked away knowing what the end result would be since I dealt with it in the 82d with assorted Div Commader approved exceptions to regulations that held as much water as the titanic.
The take away from this is not to go "Tilting at Windmills", there are actual battles to be fought in other venues.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2020 5:53 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 05:53:47 -0500

People will disagree, but nearly everything is approved or disapproved by the unit Commander. While it's unspoken, but the CSM and Commander are in sync about the approval for things such as wearing the fleece cap.

Normally the Command Team are notified when a senior Officer/NCO makes visits, which may include the uniform but that's dependant on the unit Commander.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Jan 30 at 2020 6:45 AM

SGT Robert Wager — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:45:02 -0500

There is a thing called a sphere of influence, it exists in all forms of leadership. In the military it is the most pronounced.

Think about a typical captain in command of a company. His or here sphere of influence is pretty much limited to his company. The same goes for his 1SG.

A typical LTC/CSM command team battalion level sphere

Now picture the COS/SMA sphere of influence. Does a typical Captain or even up to a COL really want to die on a hill fighting a battle with the only enlisted soldier with a positional color? Yes, every officer technically outranks him, reality is a vastly different thing than the the technical fact that he is outranked. He is the eyes and ears of the COS, he regularly speaks on behalf of the COS and he has the full support of the COS. Lock horns with him and a junior officer has just committed professional suicide.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Jan 30 at 2020 7:39 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 07:39:23 -0500

I would guess there is no "regulation" covering this...but I don't personally know any officers who would insult someone of that stature in such a way. I would also assume any who dared, would face the wrath of their superiors post haste.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 30 at 2020 9:21 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:21:57 -0500

Listen, most commanders through to General would not directly buck the SMA. Having said that the local CSM is fully capable, as is the officer to step up and chat with the SMA, coming to some sort of a compromise. The point here, I am sure is, the SMA was cold and does not fall under the local commanders, if others followed suit it is simply something that happens. Either way, SMA Grinston is a very wise man and best selections for SMA in today’s environment. There is not enough here to truly remark, but since I know him very well I will assume what is missing was handled appropriately. In closing a second lieutenant out ranks the SMA, BUT!

Response by MSgt Stephen Sedlock IV made Jan 30 at 2020 4:21 PM

MSgt Stephen Sedlock IV — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:21:07 -0500

I was assigned as a manpower team chief for exercise/real world events AND had Majors, Captains, and Lieutenants on my team that I had to provide direction. However, I always give them first choice in where they would provide the best output for the mission goal. ;-)

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jan 30 at 2020 4:53 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 16:53:00 -0500

An observation on the care and feeding of SMA and senior officer visitors-------
If the fleece cap is authorized headgear what's the issue.
SMA visits are usually hosted by one of the CSMs and he is handed off to the senior NCOs of the organizations he visits. No slight to the officer corps but "CPT so and so" isn't going to be butting heads with the SMA. If that ever happened the NCO Corps would have either failed that CPT miserably or the CPT would be a total dumb ass.
The four SMA I had the opportunity to brief and escort to BN and BDE training events had very little interaction with the officers after introductions and the grin and grip and were there to talk to the troops and NCOs about new equipment and observe them in operation and receive user level feedback. (I think I did ok, as I got three coins and one impact AAM)
As host ; Tell them what they are getting ready to see, who the NCO that is going to brief them is, give three ups on the equipment, task, or training, three downs or lessons learned, and a couple recommendations for improvement that they can effect at their level as relevant to your positions perspective. Have each presenter do the same from their perspective (1SG,PSG, SQD LDR, Troop) . If we wanted them in construction hard hats and Eye pro I handed them a set and told them that was the uniform for that site. SMA are consummate professionals but like any senior NCO or Officer; if you don't guide the tour they will go into roaming mode and you do them and your Soldiers an injustice because they won't get the feedback they need to effect change.