Can a CSM go into POV’s without the owner present?

2022-02-28T20:05:33-05:00

So our BN CSM walked through our barracks parking lot, and began going into POVs and looking around them and inside of them while the owner is not present.
I'm curious if he is allowed to do that, I haven't found any regs saying he can or cannot do that, does anyone have any insight?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2022 8:12 PM

2022-02-28T20:12:21-05:00

Why did everyone leave their POV's unlocked?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2022 9:19 PM

2022-02-28T21:19:16-05:00

Call the MPs let's all find out.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2022 9:22 PM

2022-02-28T21:22:16-05:00

Logic dictates that POVs would be considered private property and that no one is authorized to go thru vehicles without probable cause. Even if the doors are unlocked. That being said, I would recommend you seek out the MP/Provost Marshall office and ask them. Then, if they confirm that this is an illegal search then you need to do the right thing and file a report with the MPs and IG. But, make sure you have written statements from witnesses. Because if you saw it happen, I am certain other folks did as well.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Feb 28 at 2022 10:38 PM

2022-02-28T22:38:42-05:00

How did the CSM have access to the vehicles? Was the CSM just opening unlocked vehicles and hopping in? It isn't unheard of for vehicle inspection to be conducted to ensure they are safe to operate, meet all legal requirements to include that all documentation is up to date. With that said inspections in the marine Corps are always done with the driver/owner present. It is mainly a Sgt and below effort I witnessed to ensure younger Marines had everything they needed before long weekends and leave blocks. The CSM shouldn't be climbing into vehicles but the vehicles shouldn't be left unlocked. I would recommend a few things. If it happens again call the MP's. Just call in that a Solider is being seen going into random vehicles and leave it to them. I would also recommend the Soliders maybe not park directly in front of the building until these shenanigan's get sorted out. Sounds like the CSM is over reaching.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2022 7:30 AM

2022-03-01T07:30:28-05:00

Having your vehicle unlocked doesn’t give anybody the authority to search it.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 1 at 2022 9:51 AM

2022-03-01T09:51:59-05:00

I'd call provost marshal/MP station and swing by JAG.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2022 11:23 AM

2022-03-01T11:23:37-05:00

Not something that has been an issue for any of my fellow legal staff thus far whether Active or Guard. I have seen illicit room searches and confiscations but nothing involving a vehicle. The Army already has precedent about personal phones, I imagine that would extend to POV's unless there was just cause for a search in which case there is a process for that besides a CSM walking around and checking on things.

Though to be fair, a CSM walking around checking on things is in their purview to a heavy extent. So were they checking to make sure vehicles were locked or were they digging through vehicles? That's an important distinction.

Sounds like MP, Provost, and IG territory and if JAG gets involved that will be the result of an investigation and command directive from brigade or higher. If you or others are going to send this higher be prepared to answer questions on paper.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 1 at 2022 11:33 AM

2022-03-01T11:33:01-05:00

MSG Joseph Cristofaro
Posted 13 h ago
If the BN CSM was checking to ensure the vehicles were locked as required by most SOPs, I wouldn't see an issue. If he entered the vehicles, there could be an issue.
My assumption would be that he was looking for the vehicle registration for unlocked cars/trucks.
Since it occurred on a military base, military law applies here. While I don't know military law, generally if an unauthorized person enters a POV, it is illegal.
As some on here have suggested, it can be reported to the MPs.
If you don't want to risk the nuclear option, and the possible back blast, the people affected can make a complaint up the chain of command.
Since it involves the BN CSM, then either the BN CDR or BDE would investigate.

---- What SOP exists that states soldiers have to lock their POVs? I don't even think you can put that in a SOP - not even a barracks SOP. Even if a car is unlocked, and someone breaks into it and steals things, it's still a crime. Whether it's locked or not. No one has the right to go into someone else's vehicle - unless they have a warrant perhaps.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Mar 1 at 2022 12:12 PM

2022-03-01T12:12:56-05:00

Having your vehicle searched on company controlled area is a gray area Having your vehicle searched with the owner not present is a plus for something that might be questionable
But the right thing is never have anything illegal or questionable in your vehicle
Like I said it’s a gray area having a vehicle on post is a privilege not a right

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 2 at 2022 11:35 AM

2022-03-02T11:35:18-05:00

As mentioned by others, there is a gray area here, because it is on post. But that gray area is VERY small. 98% of the time, that is going to be an illegal search. And if it is multiple vehicles, that shoots up to 99.9% of the time.

The gray area comes in Command authority and Command responsibility. If the CSM can make a valid argument for A) health, welfare, or safety, AND B) urgency / exigent circumstances, then MAYBE it can pass legal muster. Maybe.

The situation you describe appears to meet neither requirement, let alone both.

Caveat that I am neither an MP nor a lawyer. Anything they may say about it automatically beats what I have to say. This is just my OPINION based on the MANY legal courses I have had to take throughout my career, combined with my civilian law courses, and a little bit (some would say VERY LITTLE bit) of common sense.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2022 1:41 PM

2022-03-02T13:41:16-05:00

In my opinion, experience and from talking to other MP'S. The answer is once enter you have give the right to search vehicle up. While your at the gate or the vicinity of the gate. Once surpass the gate area I.E the barriers. The same rules apply that apply in the civilian world. I would also so what so many suggested talk to legal office or IG.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2022 12:21 PM

2022-03-03T12:21:24-05:00

Back when I was a PFC, I was on CQ one day and a another soldier parked his bike out front of the Company area. A high speed NCO took his bike to teach him a lesson. The soldier called the police and had him arrested. There is nothing wrong with looking into locked cars, but if he takes something that's another matter. If it is part of an ATO random measure as an official duty that is signed off on and being conducted in official manner that is also another matter. I am sure that is not the case.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2022 12:15 AM

2022-03-05T00:15:47-05:00

“ Fort Sill Regulation 190-1 "Installation Physical Security and Crime Prevention" governs the security requirements for residents, Soldiers and employees on post. The regulation requires that all unattended vehicles be locked said Janet McMurtrey, Physical Security Branch chief. That means you can't leave your car unlocked even if you're going to run into the shoppette for a minute”

That’s great. But how would the CSM know if the vehicle belonged to a resident, soldier or on post employee? Could be a spouse, girlfriend, dominos delivery driver, etc.

Response by Cpl Jeremy Jones made Mar 5 at 2022 2:47 AM

2022-03-05T02:47:32-05:00

I would think that there is not OK

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 5 at 2022 6:18 AM

2022-03-05T06:18:58-05:00

Very strange. Follow earlier guidance. I would be interested in the outcome. This doesn't make sense, even if he had sone sort of permission he should not conduct a search alone.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2022 11:27 AM

2022-03-05T11:27:01-05:00

yeah. that's not allowed. I'd call an MP on him. straight up.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2022 5:22 PM

2022-03-05T17:22:40-05:00

“ The additional responses are for people who are willing to got the extra mile to ensure that the NCO Corps is purified of this rotten apple.”

So to purify the NCO corps, your advice is to completely lie about the incident, report items missing that you never had?

Clown show

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2022 5:41 AM

2022-03-16T05:41:39-04:00

The closet thing I can think of that make it even close to ok to attempt entry into a POV (I am not saying it is) is attempting to enforce the "no TA-50 in POVs" policy that every base I have been to has. Now why it is anyone's business what I keep in my insured POV covered by both vehicle insurance and renters insurance is beyond me. That one always felt like an over reach.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Mar 20 at 2022 4:35 AM

2022-03-20T04:35:35-04:00

Ok, this is no go. The CSM cannot do this. Period. While he has considerable pull among the NCO corps, he lacks any kind of legal authority to so even if he was the top ranking NCO for the post. It violates Federal Law which trumps a posts regulations.

Basically a vehicle is an extension of a persons house and is subject to 4th Amendment protections. This means that while a vehicle might be unlocked the CSM or anyone else, sans a warrant cannot legally enter it to search it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2022 11:56 AM

2022-03-21T11:56:32-04:00

I would say no, your POV is considered private property.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2022 2:44 PM

2022-03-23T14:44:15-04:00

Remember, you give up certain rights when entering a military base. It is usually posted at the entrance to all military bases that upon entering, all persons and vehicles are subject to search. The MPs would have to provide information as to whether or not the CSM is authorized. I suspect that he is and can justify it particularly when a vehicle is left unsecure. MSG Private RallyPoint Member is correct to point you in the direction of the MP/Provost and to have witnesses, particularly if anything is missing.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Apr 4 at 2022 6:50 PM

2022-04-04T18:50:09-04:00

Can he/she do it? It's obvious the answer is yes as it DID happen.
Should they do it? F|JCK no.

Grab a couple of sworn statements or MFR and walk into either IG or ask for an open door with the BN CO since it was BN CSM doing the dirty. Make copies of the statements and MFRs before going to the open door/IG of course.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2022 10:06 PM

2022-04-21T22:06:10-04:00

Once upon a time at Ft Bliss they pulled every car driving on a particular road (may have been the whole post) into the nearest motorpool and 100% of the vehicles were searched by random NCO’s. Looking for guns specifically, I believe it was 2014 the day after the shooting on Ft Hood. I always wondered about the legality of that particular instance.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Apr 23 at 2022 11:34 PM

2022-04-23T23:34:04-04:00

This CSM sounds like a toxic leader. I wonder what else he has been doing.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2022 6:34 PM

2022-04-24T18:34:54-04:00

Maybe he was just trying to get his stuff back?!?! But seriously lock your doors and this wouldn’t be an issue.

Response by MAJ Steve Warnerski made May 4 at 2022 2:12 PM

2022-05-04T14:12:00-04:00

Take a guess...but first, PRIVATELY owned stuff - a car, a truck, a pair of pants - is PRIVATE property.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made May 25 at 2022 9:36 AM

2022-05-25T09:36:01-04:00

No.

Response by SFC Michael Lindenbusch made May 31 at 2022 1:35 AM

2022-05-31T01:35:39-04:00

You probably will not find anything in Regs saying yes or no, but you will find a firm No in both the US Constitution's Fourth Amendmant and 32 CFR 552.18, both of which specify reasons and requirements for conduct of such searches.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2022 8:11 AM

2022-06-03T08:11:21-04:00

No. Worse yet if he did find anything in there it would not be admissible based upon it being an invalid search.

He could also be charged with a crime for breaking into the vehicle, even if it is unlocked.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 20 at 2022 3:33 PM

2022-06-20T15:33:21-04:00

No one ever reads the signs at the gate...

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jun 21 at 2022 4:09 PM

2022-06-21T16:09:01-04:00

I would say no he doesn't have your permission and if he indeed had suspictions he should take them to an MP and go through legal channels

Response by SSG Michael Davis made Jun 22 at 2022 1:36 PM

2022-06-22T13:36:17-04:00

Looking in, yes. Entering the vehicle, nope. As long as it's on an P/C/S installation. Off post is a different discussion. Entering even if unlocked without a real cause would be a no-go.

Officers and Senior NCOs have a duty to take care of the troops in their span of control for a range of reasons (life, safety, health, morale) but that has limits. Especially off post.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2022 2:37 PM

2022-06-22T14:37:44-04:00

Call on post legal services and ask a lawyer for free, but I’d say no.

Response by Pvt Michael S McCraw made Jun 22 at 2022 6:11 PM

2022-06-22T18:11:29-04:00

Parking lot Gov. Property. Then there you go! Uncle Sams.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Jul 13 at 2022 12:33 PM

2022-07-13T12:33:06-04:00

You're in the service and must know about all the dirtbags that surround you. Yet you leave your vehicle unsecured. Really?

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Jul 16 at 2022 3:00 PM

2022-07-16T15:00:32-04:00

I would say it all depends on the situation.

Response by Sgt Rodney Fridley made Jul 17 at 2022 8:59 AM

2022-07-17T08:59:34-04:00

I'm not trying to stir the pot here but can you tell me why there is a 'policy' that says you have to secure your vehicle? When I worked as a patrol officer with the PD I took a lot of theft reports from citizens that left their vehicles unlocked. Their logic was that they would rather not have their window broken out by some crackhead looking for spare change.

Response by MAJ Steve Warnerski made Aug 11 at 2022 9:14 AM

2022-08-11T09:14:18-04:00

The MPs need to be called and the CSM needs questioned / arrested for theft, and / or breaking and entering, or some such CRIME. NO ONE is authorized to search / enter / break into someone's POV unless they have a SEARCH WARRANT. One more example of why ~60 per cent of E-9s are worthless.

Response by SFC Carl Blount made Oct 3 at 2022 9:30 AM

2022-10-03T09:30:58-04:00

Response by CDR Joseph Ruckman made Oct 3 at 2022 4:27 PM

2022-10-03T16:27:22-04:00

My only experience is on high security FBM Submarine bases, and it's right there in black and white as you go in - entry onto the base constitutes right to search.

Response by PO1 Mike Wallace made Oct 3 at 2022 4:38 PM

2022-10-03T16:38:04-04:00

You give up some rights to privacy when you enlist without question. But just because you have a batch of stripes on your arm you don't suddenly inherit the right to violate your 4th Amendment rights or other constitutional rights. If you disagree I ask whether it would be ok if this CSM were to enter your base housing because he wanted to?

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Oct 5 at 2022 10:52 AM

2022-10-05T10:52:51-04:00

Now, idk if it’s changed or not, but, when I was in 1979 to 2000, there was a sign posted at every entry to a military base that stated ALL vehicles are subject to search and seizure ( or words to that effect) What I know wasn’t written was WHO could or couldn’t do that. It was naturally presumed that any one could do so. I remember a drug check was order for my battalion, ( dogs and so on) and people with cars had to open up their cars and let Fido sniff around them. We were all outside so the dogs could do what they wanted inside. So, I’m standing there with a brand new car ( to me) that I had purchase from someone else who just left the the military yesterday. Bought the car from him after I drove him to the airport to leave. That was my test drive. Guess who’s car Fido alerted on? That’s right. That of course is a different subject. However, do you know the reason for this senior person doing the search? It’s a SENIOR personnel searching. I’ve had my fair share of incompetent NCOs leading me. Never had an incompetent Senior NCO lead me. They just don’t get that rank if they are incompetent. Most of them are laid back. They don’t have to be the dick in situations any more unless it absolutely calls for it. Most senior NCOs genuinely care about the well being of the troops. Maybe this person was a dirt bag and this was the time to mail them. You don’t know, you can’t judge. I know I’m not gonna act unless it calls for me to act. During my time in, the CQ or Duty NCO on up had the right to inspect anything at anytime.

Response by SP5 Texi Ngiraingas made Oct 5 at 2022 7:44 PM

2022-10-05T19:44:43-04:00

POV, PRIVATE OWNED VEHICLE, Enuff said. I'd punch his lights out or give him or her a free ambulance ride to the hospital. They don't pay my car payments or insurance policy

Response by MSG Charles Pecka made Oct 6 at 2022 7:41 AM

2022-10-06T07:41:25-04:00

Look at the sign posted at every military installation that gives the commander authorization to search and control everything within the limits of his command for the health safety and welfare of such.

Response by CPO Christian Simonsen made Oct 6 at 2022 9:59 AM

2022-10-06T09:59:57-04:00

Read those placards posted at the main gate. By entering a military installation, you give consent to searches of your vehicle.

Response by SMSgt Michael Gleason made Oct 6 at 2022 5:55 PM

2022-10-06T17:55:40-04:00

I believe that nearly (if not every) base or post has a sign at each entrance that advises that entry into the government post makes people and vehicles "subject to search" ("and siezure"), so the answer to this question is most likely "Yes"! ...and I echo the question below, "Why would (anyone) leave their POV unlocked?"

Response by SGT Jerry Palmer made Oct 8 at 2022 4:25 AM

2022-10-08T04:25:04-04:00

No he can’t or she can’t but if there is probable calls they can call the military police and they can go into your vehicle yes. You are bored a military installation they can go inside your vehicle and inspect anytime they wish. This is why you see a sign up on every institution/post stating that they can do this

Response by SGT Jerry Palmer made Oct 8 at 2022 4:26 AM

2022-10-08T04:26:56-04:00

Personally me and that sergeant major if he was in a pussy we would go out to the wood line and have some wood line training. Not too many people know what that is these days, and I seriously doubt most sergeant majors do either, or most of them would be too chickenshit

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Oct 10 at 2022 3:06 AM

2022-10-10T03:06:42-04:00

My opinion is , this is another example of why CSM is a virtiualy worthless position. Between throwing their weight around to intimidate EM, over petty " infractions" to creating " local standards" and now digging around the inside of POVs demonstrates they lack enough meaningful duties!

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Oct 10 at 2022 10:41 PM

2022-10-10T22:41:14-04:00

I wonder why CSM is out doing such low level policy checks or enforcement?Could it be all police call are complete and no one is walking on the grass? This is more CSM created fluff and chickenshit to harass Soldiers IMHO!!!