Can a 2LT counsel another 2LT?

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 03:39:53 -0400

Can 2LT who is in charge of PT counsel another 2LT for failing?

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Apr 14 at 2019 3:58 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 03:58:31 -0400

IF, IF, IF the one 2Lt is doing something contrary to procedures or is in fact a safety violation, you would be within your rights to bring the infraction to his attention. By no means would you be, as peers, should you push the official counseling unless the counseling is warranted. In other words, You'd better be damn sure your cookies are all in a cushioned basket. If you do not this could come back to bite you and considering you are a 2Lt as well, you do not want to screw your career from the outset.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2019 4:12 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 04:12:38 -0400

Yes, if a SM fails a PT test you are running you may prepare a counseling statement, however if an officer if failing an APFT his/her eater needs to get involved, there is no excuse for that.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 14 at 2019 6:30 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 06:30:18 -0400

Rank is only one of the many ways we designate authority. It is generally the default, but TIS, TIG, and billet can give service members positional authority over each other (circumstance). Counselling is both a formal and an informal process of addressing issues (both positive and negative) and anyone can counsel anyone. How much weight that counselling has is another story (based on positional authority).
If you are in a position of authority over another person, you can absolutely formally counsel them regarding things within your scope of responsibility.
In your above example, it can be as simple as "WTF was that about?" (informal) or "Said named soldier failed to meet expectations on X date" (formal and in writing with plan to correct).

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 14 at 2019 9:23 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 09:23:14 -0400

When I was an IT at USAF OTS, one of my roommates paved me during my mile and a half qual run, we were allowed that, his counseling was to scream in my ear to move my rear end annul at my heels all the way, I made it by literally 1 sec, I kid there not, in Army ROTC before that when I finally passed the two miles before OTS, one of the majors, an APMS, paced ms, that was a really good day, honezt....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 14 at 2019 9:23 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 09:23:37 -0400

Sorry, OT...typo....

Response by MAJ Samuel Weber made Apr 14 at 2019 10:05 AM

MAJ Samuel Weber — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:05:46 -0400

Your story lacks some key facts LT. Officers of equal rank can counsel each other, IF directed to do so by a Commander. Since this 2LT is charged with Physical Readiness, I assume your commander may have directed you be counseled and then the Commander (Company/Troop/Battery or Battalion) should Flag you. It shocks me that a 2LT would fail an APFT or fail at PT period. You’re to young to be failing fitness tests at your age. When I was a Company Commander I had Captains in my Company who reported to me as the Commander. I counseled them and even wrote thier OERs. I had to load my assumption of Command orders as an attachment into thier OER to validate why I was rating them, this happens more often than you think. At the end of the day, this is not a topic to address in RP, speak with your peer and commander and address it like an officer should. If things like this upset you then you’re going to have a short lived career as an officer. Good luck and start working on your fitness.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Apr 14 at 2019 10:26 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:26:18 -0400

I would. Remember mg Philip Feir. Command of Cadets at west point when the cheating scandal occurred. I was living in company grade quarters. The dam washer kept breaking. Any way I was in 519th Maintaince Company. DS/GS. Back up to the division. The division was broken. Lot of history with the 7th. LT's are weak and need warrant officer help. If your Lt is giving you crap accept it and get in shape. Loser

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 14 at 2019 2:20 PM

SSG Brian G. — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 14:20:19 -0400

Yes. You provided the answer for yourself. " A 2LT was is in charge of PT" meaning that they have command authority over an APFT. They have the authority to counsel failing members because they were given that responsibility.

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Apr 14 at 2019 4:56 PM

SGT Eric Davis — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:56:37 -0400

Yes they can especially if they are in a position of authority over them. Like two E-5’s I’m the same section but one is the NCOIC so he is in charge of him!

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Apr 15 at 2019 8:34 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 08:34:44 -0400

Things certainly seem to have changed a lot.

Positional authority is a thing; yes-I suppose one could counsel an equivalent rank if the circumstances placed one in a supervisory position over another. However, being that I'm not 100% aware of the current Army regulations... take my advice for what it is; advice.

When I was a JO, there were more options in the "toolkit" than counseling. Junior officers, or junior enlisted.. they're all learning, and they can all benefit from "informal" leadership. Maybe we've come to a point both fiscally and legally where "leadership" doesn't have a place at the table-perhaps we're all becoming the "robots" we've always been accused of being.

Still, if there's leeway left, they always taught me that you're never stronger than your weakest link, and that the team works to bring those out of standard... into standard. That being said, if this officer has failed a regular physical fitness test, without an exacerbating medical condition or injury, that may be the least of their worries at this point.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Apr 23 at 2019 2:20 PM

CSM Patrick Durr — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:20:10 -0400

If that LT is in a position of Authority, Yes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2019 11:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 May 2019 23:39:14 -0400

Absolutely. However it should just be a conversation between peers that is meant to help the other person. If you come at it in a formal way with paperwork you will only create resentment between you and the other person. Plus that other person is going to tell everyone that your a tool and they won’t be wrong.