Best NCOs are not making the list why?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:29:19 -0400

I've worked with some of the best NCOs imaginable. Who seem to be stuck at that level. Versatile leaders, proficient, knowledgable, 1-1 rated NCOs, being passed over why, what are these NCOs doing/ not doing?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jul 3 at 2015 10:53 AM

COL Charles Williams — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:53:12 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I can't speak for the Army, but I can tell you through the years in the Army, and my branch (MP), and the Engineer/Chem branch - Especially again in recent years as we rapidly down size - promotions have slowed/stopped at many levels, and... many Soldiers are being asked to leave early. To promote, you must have spaces, which are alloted to each branch/MOS. Much of the issue is E7 and E8 are over-strength in many branches, so no spaces to move up.

One year in MP branch no one was promoted to E8 (31B) (12?), and the next year (13?) I think like 8 were promoted. The MP regiment for example, nearly doubled the number Combat Support (CS) MP Companies in the Active Force (20% of the MP force - the remainder is guard and reserve) after 911. At one time there were roughly 62 CS MP COs (152 personal), with 3 x E8s per unit. In 2011 one of the E8 positions was grade plate reduced to E7, and the next year the other was. So in two years the MPs (and Engineers did similar) went from 186 required E8s (just for those operational units) to 62... That had/has a huge impact on promotions.

I also know that of these E8s, about 50% were invited to retire... QSP... There were 300% of what was required. Many of those promoted in the mid 2000s, when we need more E8s... , would NOT have been promoted in days past.

We continue to downsize... so these issues continue.

My point, as I ramble, is promotions are based on requirements (available spaces), and those spaces are filled by the best qualified; based on your file... and largely your NCOERS/OERs in those key jobs your branch/MOS requires.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 3 at 2015 11:03 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:03:15 -0400

This is a Subjective question, which I can try to explain.

It's NOT like we rank ALL E7 against each other and say the Top 5% are getting promoted. That would Objectively mean the "Best" NCOs are getting promoted.

Because of Force Structure, we have to segregate by MOS/OccField. So it's like have 200 buckets of E7, and we choose the Best NCO(s) out of each bucket. Unfortunately, what that means is, with different size buckets, you end up with 1 bucket that has NCOs with different levels of skill than another bucket.

So someone in Bucket A would be a range of 75-80% (if you were using a percentile score), and bucket B would be 90-95%. Competition in Bucket B is just harder. The best guy in Bucket A just isn't as good as the worst guy in Bucket B. This isn't to say both guys aren't qualified, just that they aren't directly comparable.

What this means is that you must be the "Best in field" because when you break up promotions over the total force, it changes distribution patterns.

As an example, let's say you have an Intel Guy, an Infantryman, and an Artilleryman. They all make E6 at exactly 8 years. But E7 slots open up for them differently. The Intel Guy may be looking to be "in zone" around 10-12 years, while the Infantryman would be 12-15, and the the Arty at 15-18 (made up numbers). This isn't a matter of anyone of them being better or worse than each other, it's just a matter of how many E9 slots exist, and how much time is left until those guys retire. This can massively affect when someone goes "in zone" and who their competition is.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 11:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:20:04 -0400

Are you sure about that? What's the promotion rate for their MOS and grade? 15%? Have you met enough people in the Army in that MOS and grade to get a good idea of what the very top 20% look like?

You can't really ask an objective question, but preface it with anecdotal and subjective data.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jul 3 at 2015 1:50 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 13:50:48 -0400

I just started a similar discussion, albeit more specific regarding this question.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/is-the-semi-centralized-promotion-system-hurting-quality-ncos-when-it-comes-to-promotion?c=1&urlhash=788979&disable_n_plus_one=1&from_creation=Comment

Is the semi-centralized promotion system hurting quality NCOs when it comes to promotion? |...

The current semi-centralized promotion system (specifically concerning SSGs) authorizes 280 points towards military education. This is broken down into NCOES, Resident Military Training, and Computer Based Training. If you have ever been one of the most capable NCOs in your MOS at your unit, chances are you were the last to attend training. At least that has been my experience, and the experience of many NCOs I know. These quality NCOs 'hold...

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 11:30 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 23:30:26 -0400

This is happening all across the board. There are a few reasons that this happening.

1. The Army is downsizing and this is limiting the amount of promotions that the Army will approve. Until all of the separations, retirements and slot management is under control, don't expect a high percentage of promotions in the very near future.
2. The Army is getting back to the basics and tightening the reigns and the standards of every aspect of being a Leader. This is causing an increased scrutinization of all standards of all members of the Army. Coming to work and doing your job is not enough anymore.
3. The NCOER and OER rating systems have caused an over inflation of promotions for many years and now finally, raters and senior raters of all ranks have to truly evaluate and pick the best of the best. This is happening with all ranks, not just NCO's. 10 SSG's all in the same unit all get 1/1's, imagine if that was the case in every unit and you wonder why they all cant get promoted to SFC. For example, MOS A has 100 slots to promote and 200 SSG's to choose from and 150 of those SSG's all received 1/1's on their last 5 NCOERs. How can you truly choose between those 150? Board members don't have enough time and they have to use discriminators such as college degrees, special assignments or duties, APFT scores and unique distinctions such as SAMC, SGT Morales, NCO of the Year and DSOY just to name a few.
It is unfortunate that many truly talented leaders will not get selected for promotion but this is the Army that we live in today. For example, last years CW3 selection rates for my MOS were 54%. There were many deserving Chief Warrant Officers who didn't get promoted because there just isn't enough slots to go around based off the current manning projections, regardless of how well your board file and ratings are and for us Warrant Officers, there are only 2 chances to get promoted and then you are sent packing.