Being in charge of someone that is the same rank but has more time in Grade than you?

2015-10-21T09:43:55-04:00

I am in the National Guard. In my unit I was assigned as the Alpha team leader. My Squad Leader is out and will be gone for a few months. I have been in charge for three months. This weekend there was an NCO of the same rank moved into the squad but has more time in grade than I do. I addressed this with the platoon sergeant. Platoon sergeant, in front of the both of us, stated that because I have been there and know what is going on with the soldiers and that I am in charge of the squad and that I will remain the acting squad leader for now.
In this new electronic Army I have sent out several emails. I have sent this NCO several with the training schedules, alert rosters and several other things that he will need to do his duties as a team leader. But here is my problem. He is not responding to them, or notifying me that he is receiving them, even when I ask for a receipt reply. I do not have the email that has the receipt request as I am at work and using my personal email. Also I do not have access to enterprise mail at work. There are time sensitive things that my Platoon sergeant is asking for. I don't know whether or not he is sending directly to the Platoon sergeant. I have asked the Platoon sergeant with no reply. She is normally a stickler for CoC.
So here is the question. How do I treat this. I don't want to loose my position as Squad leader because I have overstepped my rank. I don't want to piss him off by saying look I'm in charge and then get moved out for the rank and then it turn and bite me in the a$$. We are both E-5. Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill or is there a way to tactfully do this?
To all that answer your knowledge is greatly appreciated and I if don't answer all that respond thank you in advance.

Response by SMSgt Tony Barnes made Oct 21 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-10-21T09:45:34-04:00

Something stranger happens in AF recruiting. Occasionally an E-7 becomes a recruiter and his boss is a career recruiter E-6 flight chief.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Oct 21 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-10-21T09:47:18-04:00

Been there done that. Not easy but they may not be as qualified as you are to fill the position.

Response by Cpl Micah Wing made Oct 21 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-10-21T09:47:54-04:00

He should realize and understand that you have been with your squad longer, and you understand your soldiers better than he does. If he doesn't then I'd just pull him aside and tell him, man to man

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 9:52 AM

2015-10-21T09:52:04-04:00

If he was informed that you were the squad leader and in charge due to being in the unit longer you do have the right and authority to tell him what to do as you are the acting nco in charge. It really doesn't matter if he is longer in service. You are appointed that positions so my opinion is to tell him that you need those tastings done in a certain tastings. It's your job and your butt on the line. Whether he is on board and in the same page as you or not. Do what you think is morally right on your end. I advice you to cover your side always first then branch out. Inform your chain of command about the situation. Hope that helps you.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 21 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-10-21T09:53:02-04:00

Happened twice in my career, once as a newly promoted E-5 Sergeant, assigned as the squad leader with an much more senior E-5 as the team leader. (changed positions due to his ineptitude)
Once as a SSG... by mistake as history showed.. the PSG and 1SG mis read the time in grade of myself and the other SSG up for the job. As we were both pretty much otherwise equal.. they decided in TIG, and screwed that up I found out later.

Both times.... I just did the job... I did not put myself in the job, my leaders did, after the decision, feelings have no place..... Just do the job,, if there are issues at that point... they are on the other not you.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Oct 21 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-10-21T09:54:08-04:00

Going to remind you of something I know you know SGT Bryon Sergent, when in charge, take charge.

If you are not getting the required results form your subordinates then seems to me like there might be some counseling in store for those that cannot get past their ego or cannot follow instructions. Might give the PSG a courtesy that you are going to lay the smack down on a 4856 for failing to follow directions (which indicates a lack in the Army Value of Duty).....from there forward, you might blind courtesy copy the PSG on the emails as well.

Finally, find a way to get on the S6 to get you a way to access your work email from your own computer....believe me if they can teach this guy how to do, you will easily be able to do it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-10-21T09:57:28-04:00

Treat this like any other situation with someone that you do outrank and does not respond nor do any of the tasks you direct out. But, perhaps start off with NCO to NCO and take them to the side next time you are together and ask them why they are doing what they are doing. Explain that since you have been placed in charge that it is your 6 that is on the line and to explain to them that you need done what needs doing and they need to set aside any ill feelings about this and provide that professional courtesy. After this, if it does not improve, then start with the counseling on paper.

Response by CW3 Eric W. S. made Oct 21 at 2015 10:00 AM

2015-10-21T10:00:43-04:00

The other SGTs actions are completely unprofessional. Everything about this is wrong on his part. You are in charge, end of discussion. You were placed there because you have the qualifications. He was not put in charge because you are more qualified. The PSG placed you there, she need to stand up for you. You need to address this with her. If you remain professional about it and address this situation without emotionally being attached, you will never overstep your rank. Professionally assert yourself, maintain your bearing, do the job that you have been charged to do. Time in grade does not make him more apt to lead than you. If he were a better leader, he would be a SSG and there would not be any issues.

I speak strongly of this because I was a SSG and served as the Company 1SG while there were several SFCs. This occurred for more than a few months. There was no animosity that went so far as to prevent the accomplishment of the mission. They were professional about it and they understood there was a reason for the way things were done the way they were. Keep doing your job to the best of your ability and you will succeed.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Oct 21 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-10-21T10:06:28-04:00

SGT Bryon Sergent That happens all the time, especially in Guard situations where you will have E-5s in the unit for a long long time, and it should not be a big frigging deal for that Sgt, who is brand new to your unit. He might argue that once he gets his feet under him, if he is capable, he should take over. But, I want the most capable for the job. He will get consideration due to seniority.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 21 at 2015 10:22 AM

2015-10-21T10:22:07-04:00

SGT Bryon Sergent - Bottom line is that you are in charge, whether he likes it or not. As such, you just need to do your duties to the best of abilities and treat him just like you would any other soldier under you. Worry about doing your job now, not about what may or may not happen later.

I would keep the platoon sergeant advised about the situation. If she is doing her job, she should counsel the recalcitrant E-5 and advise him of the consequences of failing to comply with your directions. If you are not getting e-mail responses or other indications your messages are being received or are being ignored, you should talk to all concerned in face-to-face conversations.

Not a good situation, but the best thing for you to do is simply do your job.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-10-21T10:31:31-04:00

SGT Bryon Sergent Mail them to him certified return receipt requested. You will have proof via it being certified that a delivery attempt was made and he will have to go to the post office to sign for the item unless someone is at home to sign for it, this will give you proof that it was received. This will provide you with all the assurance you need that you fulfilled your duties. I'm betting his behavior will change after he makes a couple of trips to the post office to sign for these items. If you are using .mil email there is a way to be notified of receipt of your email. You might even be able to get your Admin clerk/personnel SGT to send them for you this way.

I've been in the position of not only being over someone who outranks me time in grade but also by Rank. You have to make smart decisions and choices when dealing with something like this.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Oct 21 at 2015 10:38 AM

2015-10-21T10:38:47-04:00

So, my suggestion is to make sure you are dealing with the issue you think you are dealing with.
Is the issue that he is not respecting your authority?
-or-
Is the issue that he is going radio silent between drills?

Neither is right, both need addressing, but they are different.

From reading your scenario, I tend to think it may be the second scenario - a Soldier who checks out at the end of drill and back in a first formation. This would be all the more reason to keep you in the more important position, if true. Dealing with this one is tricky. As a general rule, a NG Soldier - not on drill or orders status - is not subject to military discipline or orders.

I would approach with the speech about OPTEMPO, remaining situational awareness, being prepared, and being an NCO all the time.

If it doesn't stick, I would follow up with the fact that he needs to show up ready to go and that his enlistment contract requires him to have/provide/and regularly check communications means (Yes, it actually does, I forget the exact paragraph, but I had to point that out to someone).

Response by SGT William Howell made Oct 21 at 2015 11:08 AM

2015-10-21T11:08:36-04:00

SGT Bryon Sergent Working as a Military Police Investigator I have had to take charge of people that out rank me all the time. I was a senior investigator and had E-6s under me. Luckily there was never any head butting. If you are appointed over other troops for whatever reason you are working under the commanders authority. I always use the "ask, tell, order" way of doing things. So if you want emails responded to you need to ask him to respond. If this does not work (you should know in about 3 seconds if he is going to buck) then tell him that he will respond. If that don't work, give him the order that he will. Document, document, document. Be ready to fill out a counseling statement and to put the paperwork in for an Art-15 if necessary.

I always tried to keep the drama to a minimum, but if I was in charge I was in charge. If the PLS does not like it then he can change the CoC. Don't worry about loosing your position. I would say you are more likely to loose it if your mission is not being met because your squad is not meeting the standards set.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 11:55 AM

2015-10-21T11:55:28-04:00

Where ever two or more have gathered, one person is in charge. If that is you, then take charge or get the hell out of the way.

End each email with the statement "Return Receipt Required"
Stop emailing and call him, or better yet, pay him a visit.

Good luck and Semper Fidelis

Response by SSG John Mitchell made Oct 21 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-10-21T12:29:29-04:00

You're the NCOIC. Means you're in charge. BE IN CHARGE BUT, make sure your I's are dotted and T's crossed before you try to make any on the spot corrections. That means cut out relying solely on the e-mail crap, especially if you can't receive notification of Receipt, and pick up a damn phone. You think dealing with the same Rank is hard, try being the NCOIC as an E-4 with everyone else out ranking you. Bottom-line up front Sergeant, grab your balls and make the call. Time in Rank DOESN'T always make for the best man for the job. They made these wonderful little things a long time ago called PHONES. They still work. If after you have tried every avenue and done your due diligence, take it to the PSG.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 21 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-10-21T13:02:34-04:00

Talk to the platoon sgt.

Response by SSgt Christopher Clinton made Feb 12 at 2016 9:46 PM

2016-02-12T21:46:18-05:00

The bottom line is communication needs to happen. If he is not responding to his e-mails then call him. Your new NCO needs to be in contact with his assigned unit. If you still can't get in touch with him, find someone who can. Explain to him straightforward and clearly what is expected of him. Make sure he feels confident in being able to perform his duties. If there is something interfering with his ability, find out what it is and get him up to speed. If you have issues with him keeping up with his responsibilities such as responding to your call's/e-mails in a timely manner then paperwork is in order. Keep it simple, with the process, keep a paper trail and don't tolerate lack of discipline and respect.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 16 at 2016 9:54 AM

2016-02-16T09:54:31-05:00

Here are some more dynamics: I was AC working for 2 years with a large NG Theater Support Command. Most were hard worker, but there were a few shammers who absolutely did nothing. One such individual gave me the books to the unit fund without balancing it for a year. She whined that it was too hard. She is not the only problem, her boss is the problem as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2017 1:23 PM

2017-01-24T13:23:32-05:00

With respect, I think everyone is forgetting something. The rank structure and seniority in the military is pretty rigid. Except for some rare exceptions, you CANNOT be in charge of someone you are junior to, even though this situation happens a lot. Let's say that you all deploy to combat in this same supervisory relationship and end up captured. The senior person is in charge no matter what drug deal/favoritism was previously in place. If that senior person doesn't take charge, they are derelict in their duty, and if you don't listen to him/her, you are insubordinate and guilty of mutiny. The example usually given during Code of Conduct training is person A is combat arms, person B is supply, admin, whatever, but also senior in time in grade. That person is in charge, period. That used to be pretty universally understood in the military, but I see situations like this all the time. Someone mentioned that you're operating under the commander's authority. Are you? If they had the authority to do that, why don't they have the authority to just promote you? They don't. The army has centralized promotions now, and the system is pretty jacked up. Many many years ago, a battalion commander had the authority to promote someone up to I believe E-7.

Anyway, AR 600-20 and AR 600-8-19 spell out the rules for determining seniority. The evals reg spells out the rules for determining who is eligible to be someone's supervisor. There are very specific situations where someone junior can rate someone senior and it requires approval at some level and writing.

If the senior person cannot perform the job, then there are mechanisms to remove them from the job. But you can't pick a junior person for a position because you feel they are right for the job. That subverts the military rank structure, and what that tells me is that people who do these sorts of things think those stripes are meaningless.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2018 7:33 PM

2018-09-14T19:33:50-04:00

Ok so if your deployed and you have 2 E5’s and one has deployed before and senior in rank and the other is junior to him or her but the PLT SGT selects the one E5 that is junior to be in charge and less time in the unit then does the Senior E5 have a legit gripe or IG complaint? Keep in mind their are other E5’s that out tank this junior E5 that’s in charge?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2018 7:35 PM

2018-09-14T19:35:12-04:00

Anyone know if theirs an actual regulation that governs this authority issue and who should be in charge?

Response by Robyn Morrow made Jun 9 at 2019 2:54 PM

2019-06-09T14:54:02-04:00

My son had the same issue. They made 5 guys E4s. Some had more time but my son was put in a leadership role temporarily. They moved him to cpl. He still had same problem. So he pulled them aside stated what was going on (respectfully of course so he didn’t piss off the gods) and stated this is what it is until leadership comes back. Need to work together to get job done

Response by LTC Warren Miller made Sep 1 at 2019 8:29 PM

2019-09-01T20:29:26-04:00

This is actually not uncommon in the Reserve and National Guard. I tended to assign responsibility based on who I thought could get the job done, not necessarily based on rank and/or date of rank. When I placed a leader in this challenging situation, I would often remind the leader that they had my trust and that I expected them to fulfill the duties required. And when I suspected there may be a situation as you mentioned, I would make sure that the challenging soldier got the message as to where my loyalties lie.

Don’t be afraid to use your supervisor and ask for assistance and guidance in dealing with this matter. They are there to train you, to mentor you, to develop you, and to help you be successful. It almost always worked out in favor of the junior leader. Do your job and be professional. Your troops are counting on you to lead them.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 6 at 2020 8:15 PM

2020-08-06T20:15:32-04:00

Your platoon Sgt failed you. He put you and the other Sgt in a crap sandwich. Roll with it. Fill the responsibilities of the billet. If the other Sgt doesn't realize it is not a crap sandwich you made, that's on him.

My next question is..." Where in the Hell are your officers?" The Company CO should know this and unscrew it.

Response by Cpl Matthew Asselin made Dec 20 at 2020 3:01 AM

2020-12-20T03:01:37-05:00

Funny when I walk up to two members of equal rank in any service I don’t see a patch or bar or any other device with time in service on it so if they were higher rank than me their orders would Carry the same weight. Unless they were in my unit and that they were put in charge then that person would be the one to give the orders. If the position calls for a Sargent.then the command can put the best person for the job that has the rank required.