At what point does stern NCO leadership shift from an acceptable "chew out" for failing to meet set standard to toxic leadership?

SFC David Bentley — Tue, 08 May 2018 12:58:09 -0400

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAk_Zk4nkjo
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6221608/army-bullying-female-recruit-cry-facebook/

USMC Field Day Inspection Hidden Camera

This video is dedicated to all the brave men and women who refused to re clean their rooms after being told they failed field day. 2nd Tank Battalion, Camp L...

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made May 8 at 2018 1:14 PM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Tue, 08 May 2018 13:14:49 -0400

Is this all, really? It was hardly even an actual "ass-chewing" and I endured far worse than that over much less. The guy with the dirty room is an NCO, and KNEW that he was going to be reinspected after failing the first time for being a dirtball. And then he wants to just not bother to fix in the issue for the second inspection? Seems like he's the one in the wrong here, not the guy doing the inspection.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2018 1:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 May 2018 13:19:48 -0400

The "NCO" that recorded this is a cupcake. This was nothing. I've definitely gotten much worse than that for much less.

A "tight rack" doesn't have wrinkles in it. A tight rack is, indeed, tight. You should be able to bounce a quarter on it.

I once had a 1SG tell me that "Whoopin' your @$$ is just a misdemeanor. It'll take a felony to keep my @$$ from retiring!" If this is what passes for "toxic leadership" in the Marines, then hope is disappearing fast for all branches of service.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 8 at 2018 1:31 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Tue, 08 May 2018 13:31:05 -0400

other then his language - which could be better - there is no issue - they failed a standard - end of discussion - if cusswords cause so much "emotional" pain, then what are you going to do when someone is actively trying to kill you - they were not hazed, the order was legal, and if they failed to comply - I would be recommended some ucmj in order to get heir heads out of their ass. Being cussed at is not grounds for insubordination, nor to refuse to comply with the room cleaning - the military is NOT fucking sesame street - grow up and Charlie mike.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 8 at 2018 2:23 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Tue, 08 May 2018 14:23:05 -0400

I have a hard time believing this is basic training, but more a case of a normal duty assignment. To which I would say I think the NCO is overboard. If this was basic then no its fine. I had no issues with his language, too many whiny pansies dealing with you can't swear at me mentality.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2018 2:33 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 May 2018 14:33:24 -0400

I kept thinking I had "missed" the "toxic" part.

No-this example didn't strike me as being out-of-bounds. I've had (and given) worse. To my mind, "toxic" leadership is evoked when a superior abuses their authority leading to a negative outcome for the individual or unit...i.e. no improvement and constantly degrading performance leading to worse (potentially dangerous) behaviors.

Response by 1stSgt Mack Housman made May 9 at 2018 8:38 AM

1stSgt Mack Housman — Wed, 09 May 2018 08:38:00 -0400

Perhaps we should pass out time-out cards (Sarcasm). I'm certain the enemy will take it easier on you if you show them the card! SMDH, everyone gets a trophy generation...

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 9 at 2018 9:27 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 09 May 2018 09:27:14 -0400

An inspection is an inspection- I heard at least 1 time where the SM identified dirt when it was pointed out- therefore the room was not prepared for inspection. the cursing is the USMC issue- didn't think it rated a time out card nor crayons. As for the dedication- disobeying an order is UMCJ action plain and simple.

Response by Sgt Adrian Jones made May 9 at 2018 9:30 AM

Sgt Adrian Jones — Wed, 09 May 2018 09:30:24 -0400

When I was a junior Marine and failed a Field Day my SNCOIC would have to show in his dress uniform which meant I had to be in my dress uniform to re inspect my room on Saturday. Instead of re inspecting my room, I would have to conduct a Chinese Field day, followed by PT. So to answer your question no this is not "Toxic" these are Marines trust me they have heard worst language than this. Everything in the Marine Corps is an learning experience if a Marine can't pay attention to the small details when cleaning his/her room then they could miss the small details else where when it counts ...it all starts with the things Marines do on a day to day basis like cleaning their room, making sure their uniforms are good, Pt, ensuring your weapon is clean the list goes on and on. I wish it was this easy everyone in the video is wearing civies except for the duty, easy day. You also have to remember that the SNCO has to take time out of this Saturday to re inspect a barracks room.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 10 at 2018 2:48 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 10 May 2018 14:48:11 -0400

My thought was...I wonder what the state wiretapping laws are there? Is it like some states, visual only, no audio? Is it like some states, all imaged parts must be aware and consent? Or is it like TX, where only one party being recorded must be aware of the recording?

As to the rest? If that was viewed as Toxic leadership......the Marine Corps' better order a bunch more body bags for the next conflict, they are going to need them.

Response by SCPO Morris Ramsey made May 10 at 2018 3:02 PM

SCPO Morris Ramsey — Thu, 10 May 2018 15:02:31 -0400

SFC David Bentley great Post. The Navy is a good place to grow leadership skills. But sometimes they need more than OJT

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 1:31 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 13:31:17 -0400

Just came here to leave this ...

Response by CWO4 Robert Taylor II made May 12 at 2018 1:53 PM

CWO4 Robert Taylor II — Sat, 12 May 2018 13:53:40 -0400

Never berate a fellow soldier... Encourage him or her to be better for the good of themselves and the service. There is always a better way.

Response by Cpl John DeConti made May 12 at 2018 3:29 PM

Cpl John DeConti — Sat, 12 May 2018 15:29:56 -0400

SNCO with nothing better to do... Nothing to see here! Move along! When I was in as a young un-married Corporal I split the rent and moved off base while keeping a room in the barracks... That room was kept field day ready and every week I'd go in, spray some "smell good", dust and wait for inspection and go back off base... I had way to many of these SNCO's who hate being home off hours to continue living in those barracks that close to my EAS ;) .

Response by MSgt Walter Clack made May 12 at 2018 9:44 PM

MSgt Walter Clack — Sat, 12 May 2018 21:44:54 -0400

Although I improved on my language skills in the latter part of my career, conducted inspections the same way entire time. Saw nothing inappropriate about this. You fail an inspection, re-inspection is required. Do it right the first time and then go hit the Villa. As a Staff Sergeant during an IG inspection had to report to senior inspector in the Colonel's office for individual one-on-one uniform inspection including standard question and answer time. Had several choices could have made. Choose to have my act together and received an Inspector Generals Commendation. I made my choice, the nit-wit in the video made his and then furthered his poor judgement by airing a video about it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 6:26 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 May 2018 06:26:49 -0400

The only "toxic leadership" that can be taken from this, is that the two SMs that live there fail to do as (repeatedly) told, and that younger Marines look to them for guidance. They are NCOs, and had nothing to say except excuses. Was I the absolute best at all times? No. Man enough to admit that, but damn, at least try to cover yourself. Especially when you already failed the first time...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2019 3:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 15:07:10 -0400

There is not an appropriate choice in the poll.
In the USMC video, the senior NCO seems to me to be carrying out his duties correctly. Yes, I would say that he is providing appropriate motivation and guidance in a manner that makes sense for working with young men.

Now, should there be barracks inspections in a regular, operational unit? Not beyond health and welfare. (I don't really know a "Field Day" is in the USMC since I was in the Army and we didn't have anything called a "Field Day".) I could definitely see how having the kinds of inspections shown in the video would discourage reenlistment. However, is this something that USMC units are expected to do? If so, then the senior NCO is doing his job.

The British video is too short and don't enough about the context. I don't see anything troubling, really.

Neither video looks particularly stressful.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2019 1:06 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 13:06:53 -0400

In this type of scenario, I would consider toxic leadership to be leaders who set up their subordinates to fail and then go off the rails because their subordinates didn't succeed with the task at hand. Toxic leadership doesn't help subordinates correct their deficiencies and avoid making the same mistake again. I don't think this was toxic leadership by any stretch of the imagination. This was a reinspection and even if it wasn't, I would imagine room inspections are a routine event for this unit, so I don't consider the beratement of the subordinate NCO to be out of line. The inspecting NCO never even raised his voice or made any personal insults. As far as I can see, he maintained his composure throughout the entire video. During my time on active duty I've probably heard every swear word in the book, so I'm not bothered by coarse language.

I think the Senior NCO made a very good point about how can he (the NCO who lives in the room) hold his subordinates to standards that he himself is not meeting? If he absolutely can't stand room inspections, I would recommend he either get promoted, get married or complete his enlistment and get out of active duty.

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made May 31 at 2019 7:31 AM

SPC Rick LaBonte — Fri, 31 May 2019 07:31:24 -0400

The worse exchange I seen in my military career happened on a Saturday and I was involved. For some reason on weekends at the barracks people thought they could park in the lane between the rows of spaces and reserved parking. For the fourth weekend in a row TOP found his space occupied. My First Sergeant was cool, took care of us, was my platoon sergeant before getting bumped up. So he knew I had a pickup and chain and asked if I would help him “yank that piece of shit out of my spot!” We yanked that car in park with the tires dragging out of the parking lot and on the shoulder of the street. It turned out it belonged to some wet nose butter bar who thought he could pull rank on the First Sergeant. Neither was in uniform at the time and after a furious exchange, Top said “First thing Monday I’m going to recommend the CO send you to an eye doctor because you’re blind as fuck if you can’t see that big sign that says “Reserved for Company First Sergeant!”

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 31 at 2019 5:19 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Fri, 31 May 2019 17:19:31 -0400

You know - this keeps popping up in my mentions here, so I am going to say this - the government provides you with housing, whether you live in the barracks, on post, or off post through BAH, as such, your command has regulatory obligations to ensure your living quarters are up to standards, and that you meet basic health and welfare requirements. Your home is not YOURS, it is the governments as long as they are providing the means for it. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy, which is why inspections must be announced, but make no mistake, they CAN inspect your home, and they have a reasonable expectation for you to comply with it. You cannot just say no.

Response by Kaly Moore made Jun 1 at 2019 1:13 PM

Kaly Moore — Sat, 01 Jun 2019 13:13:46 -0400

My Superintendent on a job site gets on us worse than these guys. Step up and do what you know you should be doing.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 15 at 2019 7:12 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 15 Jun 2019 07:12:45 -0400

Toxic leadership is such that the individual is relentless and continuous with the beratement and maltreatment of service members. Stern conversations (ass chewing) do not equate to toxic leadership. One is a correction the other is a lifestyle for the leader who cannot guide, coach, lead unless they are berating, or punishing someone for acts large and small. Their is a clear distinction. Thank you for your service.

Response by LCDR Robert Turner made Oct 27 at 2020 10:20 PM

LCDR Robert Turner — Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:20:11 -0400

At the point it causes injury. Words that correct and rebuild are useful. Words that demean and insult are useless and put that NCO in the bottom 1/3 of humanity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2021 1:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Aug 2021 13:39:53 -0400

When you start making it personal