At what point does society accept every flag, race, creed, religion, historical belief?

SGT Jim Ramge, MBA — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:08:05 -0500

I am just curious what my fellow RPers think on this matter...

FYI - Please keep this one professional as it could become a heated discussion... Respect your fellow RP Brothers and Sisters points of view!!!

Why is it just a couple of years ago such hatred views are unacceptable for ones historical beliefs, but are now totally acceptable in Congress as the new golden rule?

Has society leaned so far one way or the other that ones belief is now adjudicated by their status in this country? As crazy is it may seem, what if previously, David Duke slapped a KKK flag outside his office years ago, or today’s southern states placed their Confederate Flags outside theirs? Where does the line get drawn for equality of ones personal belief and their first amendment rights? Shouldn’t ALL flags be permitted or are we to now lay down the laws as to morally (by today’s standards) of what is acceptable to not?

Further - Would it now be okay for a unit Commander to have in his office, seems okay for a Congressional Staffer?

Personally, I think there should be only two flags permitted; the US Flag and their home states representative flag - however, if we are to open up to other flags, where does the line get drawn, both morally, ethically, and by whose guidance shall they adhere?

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-pride-flag-hung-congress-rep-jennifer-wexton-n954851?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma

Mikel, can you please push this one out...? Please and thank you kind Sir!

Transgender pride flag hung in Congress by Rep. Jennifer Wexton

The new congresswoman from the 10th district of Virginia said she hung it to honor trans friends and family.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 9 at 2019 10:20 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:20:10 -0500

Yours is a fair question, one that I can only respond to by telling a story that many of us of a certain age have shared. Once upon a time, whenever American Nazis paraded, there were cries to halt them. However, calmer heads prevailed and we were reminded of the constitutional rights of freedom of assembly and freedom of expression. Furthermore, we assured ourselves that they represented very little threat inasmuch as their numbers were so small. Finally, many of us agreed that it was better to know who the kooks were and where they lurked, rather than driving them underground. Thus, I am tempted to dismiss your concerns with the same arguments. However, these are far different times, aren't they? Yes, the constitutional rights still protect them, but ours are diminished by political correctness that seem focused on stifling the rights of saner heads. Yes, it is still better to know who the kooks are and where they lurk, but there are so many more of them these days. Finally, instead of driving them underground, the ground swell of support for the kooks emboldens them to more aggressive attacks including physical violence (witness the activities of ANTIFA). No, I'm not even remotely tempted to call for a suppression of rights. I simply caution the sane to be aware and fight back against the propaganda that we once treated dismissively. Speak out. Let others know that they are not alone in being concerned and standing together against the barbarians who are now inside the wire (even in the halls of Congress). Take elections seriously. Only the motivated vote. It's time for us to become more motivated.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 10:21 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:21:49 -0500

When looking at the turmoil around the world I am often amazed at how the USA seems to get along compared to the rest of the world. Not perfect I'll agree, but we don't have one religious group killing another for their beliefs. As for the flags and first amendment rights, personally I think people need to get thicker skin. If there weren't so many offended/outraged I would wager that many of these displays would go away, I see them as attention getting devices more than anything else.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2019 10:23 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:23:29 -0500

I think some defining needs to be done here. By "accept" do you mean that I allow you to fly your flag? Or that I agree with whatever it represents? Those two things get mixed up in our world today. I will not fight someone who puts a gay pride sticker on their car or flies the flag in their yard. But that doesn't mean I have to support their lifestyle. Nor do they have to support my lifestyle but that means I can fly a flag that they don't "like" in front of my home also. What's good for the goose...

As far a government officials go, they are held to a different standard while at work. They can fly whatever flag they want at home, but not at work. The government should not appear to be "taking a side" on issues such as that. As a Company Commander, and a Christian, I would be wrong if I put a cross up in front of the Armory. But nothing stops me from getting one tattooed on my arm. Also, I think someone's office could be considered personal space. For me, putting up a transgendered (or whatever) flag inside a personal office is different than having it out front or in a common area inside a gov't building. Again, the gov't should not be seen as taking sides.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jan 9 at 2019 2:09 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:09:30 -0500

I think that are youth are being brain washed by the media and these groups that think burning the flag or that keep bringing up everything as a race issue, or creed, or religion is the problem. I believe that our media is getting so far out of hand that will have an adverse affect on our children and thier children and so on and so forth. I believe in the Flag, I support the Constitution, I'll fight for my Country, I believe that everyone should be able to practice their religion (in peace and professionally), and that is how I was brought by my parents and my parents were brought up that way as well. How are kids being brought up today with social media, being left at home because both parents have to work or left in daycare, etc... Anyway that's my thoughts - we need to do something as a society about our social media, news, and the government controlled by our Congress, not the Executive Branch, or Justice, just the Congress (it's out of control) and the people need to get it back - my two cents for what's it worth. Great question SGT Jim Ramge, MBA Passing it on to the Tiop Influencers for more coverage and feedback.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jan 9 at 2019 2:30 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:30:14 -0500

Since society is made up of people by definition this seems to be a loaded question SGT Jim Ramge, MBA.
An affirmative answer would focus on nations which are governed by a Constitution which is based on Judaeo-Christian precepts which respect the rights of individuals.
On paper our nation respects the rights of individuals even those that are abhorrent. That is what toleration really stands for - we tolerate what is abhorrent to us and we don't embrace it by any means.
Sadly history and logic are not as scrupulously taught in public schools by and large. There have been efforts to short-change history by purging out contributions of dead white males and then right the perceived wrong of Euro-centro contributions to science, art, exploration, philosophy, etc and supplant then with alternately pan-African or east Asian contributions.
It would be much better if students were taught, like many of us, United States History, World History, World Geography and how it has changed over the past couple thousands of years in terms of nation states, colonies, empires, etc.

Society as a whole may accept every flag, race, creed, religion as valid. However, that by no means reflects that each individual will. That is the beauty and crutch of the Bill of Rights.
I would never advocate that any society embraces every historical belief in the sense of historical faiths of the Aztecs and Incas and others which practiced human sacrifice, etc.
Thank you for mentioning me, my friend COL Mikel J. Burroughs

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Jan 9 at 2019 2:40 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:40:10 -0500

National flag & state flag only

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Jan 9 at 2019 2:52 PM

Maj Marty Hogan — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:52:56 -0500

Good question. We have white shamed the average Caucasian guy into the if you do not agree with every new PC issue, you are a racist, homophobe, insensitive, intolerant, sadistic, etc etc. I honestly try to ignore the din and move on. As far as the rest, I am all over continuing the expansion of the melting pot. I will further let Teddy Roosevelt speak on this:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jan 9 at 2019 3:04 PM

1SG Michael Farrell — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 15:04:22 -0500

I think we have a problem with dumbing things down. Daniel Patrick Moynihan said famously that everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. We now have a couple of generations who seem to think that their idea of the facts -- Obama is a Muslim! The Clintons are space aliens! The earth is neither round nor flat but as an elliptical curve! (I have no idea what possibly mean.) Rules of logic, common sense, scientific method and so on are taken out of the picture and replaced with I feel statements. I think that if we were to suddenly start requiring more rigor and critical thinking in schools from K-12 through graduate programs, we'd be ahead of the game. If not, well, so long and thanks for the fish.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 9 at 2019 5:21 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 17:21:17 -0500

Pretty simple to me, erosion of the 1st amendment. If I see a flag or icon of a country or symbol that goes against my beliefs, I take myself from the area. It may be an irritation, like the Migrants flying the flag of their origin, while breaking down our door to gain access to our country.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 9 at 2019 7:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 19:53:19 -0500

Never.

Response by CPL James S. made Jan 9 at 2019 11:47 PM

CPL James S. — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 23:47:29 -0500

Offered IMHO only:
As I see things, we, as Americans, and especially as military members or veterans, should respect the Constitution first and foremost allowing all people their rights *so long as exercising those rights does not interfere with the rights of others*. That latter part is important.

There is a difference between public displays of personal belief in the civilian sector and the military, however, and the military should limit official flag displays to those that are specific to the profession and relevant to the location. The military is a professional organization and should limit its displays of cultural or other flags to personal space, not professional spaces like the command staff offices or base flag display.

In Congress, the elected official should represent their constituents (or state). This also should mean that all of its constituents should be represented, not just a selected few. If we allow a select few to be represented by an ideological display of any kind *in an official capacity* then it sends a message of special represented status and potential special treatment - and that is illegal and morally repugnant according to our own Constitution.

There is also the problem of equal representation under the law and under the Constitution. There are obvious signs of inequality on certain issues, but that is a matter for the courts.

Cultures change and there is always going to be friction as our melting pot grows and changes with the times, technology and it's expanding population. The one thing in common is our identity as a nation and equality under the Constitution.

.

ADDENDUM - edit:

My perspective may well be wrong, but it comes from the following:
I was raised *without* the ability to exercise my American Rights guaranteed by the Constitution because I was a military BRAT living overseas - as of 2004 I had spent 90% of my life not in America.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 10 at 2019 8:49 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:49:35 -0500

Jim...let me pontificate (well there goes my day I already used my $10 word for the day).

Flags 2 things:
1.) Official flags need to be flown on government buildings. Federal and state....only...it is a government facility and there is no room for other "unofficial" flags such as the Transgender flag or one like the Confederate flag or the rainbow Gay pride flag or Antifa flag etc. As example, I don't think there is a place for confederate flags incorporated in state flags. I.E., my state flag, the Mississippi flag. Not for what it has become to be known as but because of what it originally stood for. The Confederate flag was designed as a flag of rebellion from the United States. It had nothing to do with hate. Due to the fact the origin was a rebellion from Union that fact alone it should not be part of a state flag that is currently in part of the United States...still shows rebellion in my part. But it is currently the state flag as voted on by the citizens of the state and should be flown alongside the US Flag until such times it is changed.

2.) On a personal office, home, car, building whatever that is fine IMHO. That is personal and not professional. If you want to fly it personally, then go for it...that shouldn't be regulated on moral grounds. We, as a nation, should not be regulating morality...period. Everyone has their own belief of what is moral and immoral and when we start passing laws regualting morality we are going down a steep slippery slope.

The problem with the US today is the we are becoming a society of the beleif that I am right and you are wrong and since you disagree with me you must be destroyed without any discussion or debate of the facts.

Well that is enough pontification...time for more coffee!!!

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jan 10 at 2019 1:28 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:28:35 -0500

Tough one to answer. First you need to differentiate between public and private society. Public society in my mind represents official organizations, Federal, State, County, City, Town, etc. organizations and they should only be allowed to display two flags, American and whatever flag represents their official place in society. Private society can display whatever flag(s) they wish, but IMHO if you are going to display flags, the American flag should always be included.

Response by MAJ James Woods made Jan 10 at 2019 8:52 PM

MAJ James Woods — Thu, 10 Jan 2019 20:52:22 -0500

Simply put: the partisan divides on nationalism, religion, gender equality, and political beliefs have reached levels of extremism.
At one time the beliefs of David Duje and the KKK was accepted reality that was welcomed in various parts of this country for a long time well before Duke and the KKK. Racial equality is not acceptable in today’s society so anyone that displays and supports such a philosophy in government office or private home deserves the rebuke.
The LGBTQ whether one supports them or not is a faction of our society that isn’t changing. In the realm of representation in public office and service, it should be accepted but in the realm of privacy one has every right to ignore them without discriminating then. Same goes for the various religious and non- religious factions.
Bottomline: public office means representing the entire Republic and not oneself’s beliefs.