At this point, why would anyone want to serve in the military?

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:45:52 -0400

Obama surrendered Iraq in a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq in 2012. Biden, not to be outdone, has not only surrendered Afghanistan in a matter of week, but surrendered it back to the very people we were fighting for the past two decades. For each individual who enlisted/commissioned after 9/11 or those who served in theatre post 9/11, it would seem the entire exercise was for not, and the United States government has no issue throwing away the sacrifices of veterans and service members if it makes for assumed beneficial and politically expedient ends. Knowing this, why would anyone choose to serve in the military? Amazon is paying for tuition and books for hourly employees now, so the GI Bill isn't a huge selling point. The government is on the verge of cramming down public healthcare and, if we are being honest, Tricare and VA healthcare aren't the best. And seeing as how only a fraction of those who serve will ever serve the entire 20 years to receive retirement, what are the benefits of service? And before anyone goes and says, "well, patriots choose to serve their country," let's remember that the military is currently labeling all with views to the right of Noam Chomsky white supremacists, radicals, and extremists, so it isn't as if they are trying to recruit the patriotic crowd.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Sep 10 at 2021 5:47 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:47:41 -0400

Once again, how I Pray a Most Fervent Prayer; for all of the victims of 911. SGT Joseph Gunderson

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 10 at 2021 6:23 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:23:04 -0400

Same reasons people have been serving for years.
-Guaranteed paycheck
-Regular promotions
- Free Medical
- Free Dental
- SGLI
- Free housing
- Free food
-Tuition Assistance
- GI Bill
- Free Credentialing/Certification
- Dependant Medical coverage
- Space A travel
- Overseas assignments (being paid to see the world)

I really could keep going... The military is amazing...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 6:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:25:32 -0400

This is the fifth president I’ve served under. Day to day nothing really changes. By the way, both of the instances you cited to lead off your post where presidents abiding by agreements of their predecessors. I suspect you knew the that but discarded it as inconvenient.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 10 at 2021 6:31 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:31:33 -0400

Apparently being the Wolds Police is your idea of our military's purpose. I tend to go with Defending the US. Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are on our border

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 6:44 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:44:43 -0400

You are free to leave if you dont like it

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 6:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:53:12 -0400

Did you forget which administration lied to get us over in Iraq in the first place?

Response by SSG Michael Noll made Sep 10 at 2021 6:54 PM

SSG Michael Noll — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:54:54 -0400

Thank you brother Joseph, why is a good question and getting harder to see a reason with the WOKE indoctrination and all you have already mentioned brother.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Sep 10 at 2021 7:15 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:15:43 -0400

Duty, Honor and country!

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Sep 10 at 2021 7:19 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:19:09 -0400

Just think about what would happen to us. If we failed to protect our own turf and or survival.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Sep 10 at 2021 7:50 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:50:47 -0400

Somebody tell this fan of alternate right wing history that the Great W. did the Peace plan. Sure reminds we of what Nixon did in Nam and the orange wanna be dictator did in Afghanistan.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 7:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:51:10 -0400

The Trump administration actually negotiated the withdrawal from Afghanistan. All the presidential candidates in 2008 promised to leave Iraq within a few months of each other. The Army has successfully recruited and thrived for 225+ years prior to 9/11, this conflict is just one more conflict among two centuries of conflicts and there will be more ahead. When I joined in the 90s there was no major war and people still joined.

Tricare is still the best free health insurance out there. Even if the US eventually goes to a public health insurance system it will be years. It took forever to get the current health insurance in place, and that is paid for by individuals. It will be years before the US either gets a single payer health insurance program and longer till it gets a government paid system like Medicare for all.

Only a fraction do stay till retirement, but that fraction is 1 of 8. With the new Blended Retirement System people can still retire at 20 years or separate with their DOD matching their TSP. It's a very competitive retirement package compared to civilian employers.

Then there are the other benefits. You get 100% Tuition Assistance to a bachelor with assistance through a Masters plus credentialing assistance. Pretty decent pay once you put some time in, the ability to transfer your GI Bill, disability rating for basically just doing your job and getting older, veterans preferance for government jobs, travel to foreign places, chances to live in exotic locations (some less exotic), and all that with 30 days of paid vacation leave a year.

The 30 days of leave are what sold me when I joined in 1997, before any war, before the 9/11 GI Bill, before 100% Tuition Assistance, and back when E6s and below were living on food stamps. I think it's only gotten better since then

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Sep 10 at 2021 7:53 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:53:20 -0400

HMMM. Patriotic crowd?? I gotta wonder if he is thinking that the insurrectionists from Jan 6th. are patriots. LOL!!!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 10 at 2021 8:19 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:19:10 -0400

Did we lose in Iraq? Did Trump make the strategic decision to leave Afghanistan?

Response by LTC Dave Leppanen made Sep 10 at 2021 9:13 PM

LTC Dave Leppanen — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:13:31 -0400

People will continue to serve no matter the political/social climate. People served during Vietnam. Yes, many were drafted but many also volunteered. People served after Vietnam during the Ford and Carter Administrations. People continued serving during the Reagan Administration after the Khobar bombings. People served during George H.W. Bush Administration. People served during the Clinton Administration after the Somalia intervention in 1992-1993. As for benefits, thanks to VEAP (Veterans Education Assistance Program), I left college debt free. Thanks to a VA loan I was able to purchase a house with no/very small down payment. (This was before the housing boom and easy credit in the 1990s). The world isn't going to stop. Learn from your mistakes. If you're watching, you can make some fairly accurate predictions of what will happen next.

Response by MAJ Janice Campbell. BSN, RN, CNOR made Sep 10 at 2021 9:30 PM

MAJ Janice Campbell. BSN, RN, CNOR — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:30:45 -0400

Retired with just under 30 yrs in 2005. Just got off 2nd 179 day active duty TDY tour as retired recalled to help w/ covid crisis. Not the military it used to be.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2021 10:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:11:51 -0400

A week ago, responding to a thread titled “Would you join the military all over again if you could?”, you responded simply, “In a heartbeat”.

Why would you join the military at this point?

Response by SPC John Donovan made Sep 11 at 2021 3:15 AM

SPC John Donovan — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 03:15:21 -0400

To fight to bring the USA back to what we used to be so their children have a better life. Obama and Biden have ruined this country. we need to get some new blood back in charge of both the House and the Senate.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2021 8:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:27:14 -0400

It seems so much of this is breaking down…and has for years…to “I don’t want to serve now that the military is not a haven of right wing evangelical authoritarian thought”

Feature. Not a bug.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Sep 11 at 2021 10:09 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:09:49 -0400

Service to the Nation is not about Politics, nor our leaders. It is about the ideal of Freedom and equality for all. Its not perfect yet and probably will never be, but you have to stand for something.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2021 10:43 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:43:39 -0400

Service before self.

Some decided to serve after having very cushy lucrative careers. Look at most of AMEDD especially in the guard and reserves. Many lose money by going to drill and yearly required trainings. Deployments and mobilizations often are a financial loss. Why do it? Service before self. If not me then who?

In the end it’s about giving something back because you live in a country that gives so much without asking anything in return.

I personally have met some of the most amazing people and friends in the military and have a bond with them that I’ll never have with people in civilian life. You just can’t match it. It’s really about the person next to you.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2021 10:43 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:43:39 -0400

Freedom, Patriotism, and for some 3 hots and a cot. A start in life. Some make more of their TIS than others, based on their actions and dedication. Sorry if you were a victim of your service. You grew it, so you can chew it. Did US pay for your education?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2021 12:50 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:50:15 -0400

At sea, everyday is Flag Day. In the movie, the speech was an excellent portrayal of Lt. Collins by Richard Crenna that was what real sailor's think about and must do everyday, because at sea, everyday is Flag Day. Those words are recited here.

In Richard McKenna's book "The Sand Pebbles" his fictional USS San Pablo gunboat ship captain Lieutenant Collins makes a memorable and prophetic Flag Day speech to his crew about war and readiness.

“Today we begin cruising to show the flag on Tungting Lake and the Hunan Rivers. I want all honors rendered smartly.

At home in America, when today reaches them it will be Flag Day. For us who wear the uniform every day is Flag Day.

It is said that there will be no more wars. We must pretend to believe that.

But when war comes, it is we who will take the first shock, and buy time with our lives. It is we who keep the Faith…

We serve the Flag. The trade we all follow is the give and take of death.

It is for that purpose that the people of America maintain us. And anyone of us who believes he has a job like any other, for which he draws a money wage, is a thief of the food he eats, and a trespasser in the bunk in which he lies down to sleep.”

Response by SPC Lyle Montgomery made Sep 11 at 2021 3:08 PM

SPC Lyle Montgomery — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:08:09 -0400

Patriotic people will still join the military. We won't always have liberal socialist/comunist cowards like Biden and Pelosi and many other Democrat idiots running things. The pendulem will swing the other way as it always does.It can't happen soon enough

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 11 at 2021 3:58 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:58:46 -0400

Why would losing in Afghanistan prevent people from joining the military? People join for many reasons:

- A place to become mature and grow.
- College benefits.
- Needing a job.
- Patriotism.
- It’s a family business.
- The military can be a good stepping stone for the future.
- Running away from a less than ideal life.
- Job skills.

Response by SGT Mary G. made Sep 11 at 2021 4:31 PM

SGT Mary G. — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 16:31:48 -0400

Perhaps some folks join to be part of the National Guard and be available to assistance in times of disaster?

Response by SPC James Drury made Sep 11 at 2021 6:31 PM

SPC James Drury — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 18:31:56 -0400

Sgt G, You've made some very interesting points. It's seems pretty clear our military has taken a huge propaganda wallop. The stink from our top commanders is alarmingly damaging.

The more we see our military brass (leaders} on t. v. the worse the smell gets. The incompetence, the self-promoting, the glib patronizing and the obvious lack of accepting responsibility is both staggering and sickening.

You can almost hear or sense our soldiers saying to themselves, "What the hell am I doing here?"

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Oct 25 at 2021 12:55 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Mon, 25 Oct 2021 12:55:28 -0400

Obama surrendered Iraq in a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq in 2012.

This was actually Negotiated by George bush, and it happened in 2010 not 12.

Biden, not to be outdone, has not only surrendered Afghanistan in a matter of week, but surrendered it back to the very people we were fighting for the past two decades.

This, also, was negotiated by the previous president, ergo Donald Trump.

If you people are going to be critical of the administration, pick the right one, or shut your ignorant fucking mouths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doha_Agreement_(2020).

The real question you should be asking yourself is why so many troops are willing to blame all their problems on democrats, when it is republicans that fuck them all the time.

Bad title - Wikipedia

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Oct 26 at 2021 2:56 PM

PFC Stephen Eric Serati — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:56:05 -0400

I appreciate ur views SGT. but disagree with U. The military is a wonderful experience 4 young men and women. A lot of times its a way out of a bad situation. It also opens doors to a better paying job as a civilian. It teaches things lacking in civilian life. Honor!!! In my humble opinion, now is the best times to join or re up. I recommend to all military, stay n , retire and ETS to civilian workforce with Ur military retirement to help cover extra costs of living with ur civilian job. I wish I would have.

Response by MAJ James Fitzgerald made Oct 27 at 2021 5:54 PM

MAJ James Fitzgerald — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:54:32 -0400

I have read many posts, rebuttals and disagreements from your original post. I think everyone who has ever served in the US Armed Forces would have an opinion and/or input to your question. One of the things that some of my fellow retirees and I have discussed in recent times is not about your question specifically, rather about what Senior Leadership should do in certain circumstances, like disagreement on how to withdraw from Afghanistan with the POTUS. This is just a recent case, and we know there have been many others. What is the 'honorable' action for the Senior Leaders to take in these circumstances? The two positions I am referencing are SECDEF and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I don't have an answer that would be anything other than my opinion, which is not important.

I am neither a Democrat or Republican. I use to think that was important, but then I realized that when the smoke cleared, there was not that much difference between them. Yes, there are some high profile subjects like abortion and LGBTQ+ where there are differences. I have come to the realization that I must look at what they do and not what they say. All of us were citizens before we became members of the US Armed Forces, so we know the civilian side and now we know, about the military side, some more than others. We simply serve, based on our oath. While in uniform, we cannot be concerned with political matters, which has recently plagued most of the services. Politics is never completely invisible, rather this is something that we have to remember...civilian leadership is imperative, and while in uniform, we may disagree with the CINC, or the political appointees, but we are not there serving them in the end, we are there serving because...you fill in the blank for yourself about your personal reasons.

I have been taken aback a little where it seems the person is still in uniform and has stated strong beliefs about one political party or the other. I would rather not see that happen, because I don't think it is in the best interest of our country and our fellow citizens. There will be plenty of time to do that once you hang up your uniform, whether that be after a few years or decades upon retirement. That does not mean you should not be concerned and vote your conscience.

I admire and appreciate all who are serving or have served. Individuals, as many have articulated with great zeal concerning your post, have various reasons for serving or serving again or not serving again. I am old now and look at things differently than I did in my younger years. I appreciate you asking the question, and all who took time to answer or provide feedback. Each of us is unique, which guarantees differences of views. I think our common bond of having served means more for most of us versus our differences about CINC's or politics or political parties.

I realize all of this input is just my view, and others will disagree. Thanks for the avenue of feedback.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Nov 15 at 2021 8:49 AM

SGT Juan Robledo — Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:49:10 -0500

The Military has changed DRASTICALLY, too many changes, male soldiers walking around with beards, I thought only Special Ops we're authorized, don't know if these new changes are good for moral, or our military leaders are being forced to go along and give in to demands by outside sources beyond their reach, maybe it'll go back to being led by leaders who will make a difference for those young people who decide to enlist, time will tell

Response by SSG Johan Gomez made Nov 17 at 2021 6:24 PM

SSG Johan Gomez — Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:24:51 -0500

I joined. Did 10 years. Glad i got out before all this woke joke bs.

Response by SSG James Knopp made Nov 18 at 2021 10:42 PM

SSG James Knopp — Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:42:13 -0500

I get where your coming from. It seems if you choose to sacrifice twenty years of your life defending the freedoms the “opposites”, and I don’t say that word lightly, oppose of, then it seems like WTF.
This “counter culture” business is getting a bit out of hand. Certain views cannot be spoken of without being shut down.
I raised my right hand to defend this country against foreign and domestic threats and to defend our Constitutional rights.
I thought President Biden would be the one to bring civility to this divided country, but his ratings has declined drastically. Pandering to the left will only divide this country further.
Where are all the “young” Democrats and Republicans they are the torch bearers and only they can bring this country back from the brink of total collapse of this fragile Democracy. I know with age comes wisdom, but this bipartisan divide needs to stop.
That being said, there will always be warriors born into this world that are willing to put their lives on the line defending their beliefs and not for just three squares, clothes, and room and board.
Veterans though, need to be better taken care of for all they have sacrificed whether it be three years or twenty.
One last point. If we as humans could accept that being an “inclusive” society and not an “exclusive” one maybe there is still hope for this country.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Nov 19 at 2021 3:30 PM

SPC John Tacetta — Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:30:45 -0500

Because it is your duty as the citizen soldier you are supposed to be.

But more often than not, it's just the surest path out of a bad situation, and I don't mean trouble with the law. You rarely find trust fund babies in the service and when you're faced with poor prospects the service can look downright inviting. It certainly gave me a jump start in life.

Your view that the service is somehow inimical to conservative views is myopic. Between an inclusive racial policy (which was in full swing during my day) and your oath it is only proper that racism and anti-government sentiment within the ranks be rooted out. So, if you're a "good ol' boy" happily throwing the "N-word" around or marching on the mall trying to oust the duly elected government you have no business in the military; the former directly oppose standing policy and the latter, unfaithful to their oath, can never be called patriots.

Response by MSgt Gilbert Jones made Dec 20 at 2021 1:15 AM

MSgt Gilbert Jones — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 01:15:51 -0500

Let's get this straight, Trump was the one who signed the agreement to end the fighting in Afghanistan, Biden only completed the agreement of pulling the troops out.

Response by SGT Philip Klein made Dec 27 at 2021 12:54 PM

SGT Philip Klein — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:54:39 -0500

Cut your dick off for free.

Response by SSG Watis Ekthuvapranee made Dec 29 at 2021 2:40 PM

SSG Watis Ekthuvapranee — Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:40:49 -0500

First of all, we are soldiers. We are not politicians. For the US military, we fight a war to preserve our way of life for all Americans. As former President Ronald Ragan said, "Trust but verify." Cooperation requires degrees of trust. Therefore, we must have some faith that our elected representatives, senates, and all do their jobs for as long as the US Constitution exist they must not break our laws of the land. Just as these politicians have to trust us to do our job and nothing that will break the rules of engagement. We are the "big stick" so that these politicians can speak softly and politely.
Second, in The Art of War by Sun Tzu, "No long war ever profit any nation." That is true, we cut NASA fundings to maintain our war. We out-source our military positions to private contractors to cut the hiring and benefits in the long run. These are a few things that we can easily see what we have to do to maintain this long war.

Third, The United States is not a conqueror. We are a group of pioneers who seek out adventure and prosperity. We would like to pursue our happiness in peace rather than suffering in war. This is why I love this country. Besides, why would we want to be responsible for other nations to continue their wars? We give went into Iraq looking for those responsible that hurt us in return we have given them freedom. The freedom to allow those countrymen to choose their future. Why would we want to be responsible for others when we want to pursue our venture? For my own personal reasons: 1) Saddam has been a thorn on our side for a long time; 2) we were mad that thousands of our people died because a group of people led by a mad man who wanted to blame us for everything that seems wrong in his life; 3) we need to remind the world what we can do if anyone to hurt us.

The Iraqis have long been suffering under the life of oppression, we gave them the freedom to choose the life of liberty and the ability to pursue happiness. Even now, the Iraqis are still fighting for their way of life. They still stand. On the other hand, the Afghanis were being oppressed by a fanatic Islamic tribe. We went in and we had given them the chance and longer time for them to define their way of life based on our same principle of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. We gave them twenty years the freedom to choose a new way of life, and they chose. While their brave men and women tried to define their way of life, fighting against the oppressor who holds half of the country. Furthermore, there were more of those who were self-serving, short-sighted, and those that caved into the terror. As I have said, there were not enough braves to turn the tide. As a country, this is what they chose. The liberal (US-coalition back), the Taliban, and the ISIS agreed to choose this route who are we to argue? Both countries had an equal chance of freedom to choose their futures. Again, the Iraqis hold most of the country and for the first time in over 40 years they have a chance to choose a different path, and we helped them for ten years. The Iraqis do not compromise with terrorists (ISIS). The Afghanis have had the same chance to choose, for them, it has been a millennium since the last time they have a chance to choose a different path, with us backing them up for twenty years, twice as long as Iraqis. The Afghani government chose to cooperate with the oppressors and the terrors while many people chose to give in to terror and some chose to intangible promises of wealth and fame. Remember, we fight for freedom, and that freedom for others (countries) means the freedom to choose their way of life, like when the French gave us a chance to choose our way of life. And, I think, we did splendidly thus far. I, as a recent immigrant, received that chance, and therefore, I would like to keep that chance alive for others to choose theirs, especially, for my own family and friends.

Remember, we are soldiers. We are not politicians. We fight the war that we and our love-ones hope we never have to fight. While we watch the politicians do their work, we must give certain trust to our chosen representatives to do their job, talking, negotiating, and dealing with others. And, if the result is not what we want, we will just have to choose a different one. Remember, throughout the history of man, we are better together with diversity than racial superiority. We fight for freedom, and that freedom is what we can offer to others. And the first item in the freedom package is the freedom to choose their way of life, their future. The rest of the package was optional. Definitely, we would not shove our way of life down their throats because, then, we are no different than the oppressor whom we fought.

This is my humble two cents,
Watis Ekthuvapranee,
USA, SSG (Ret.)

Response by Cpl Craig Howard made Jan 1 at 2022 1:28 AM

Cpl Craig Howard — Sat, 01 Jan 2022 01:28:45 -0500

Whereas I had a mostly positive experience in the Marines, I do not see it as being right for a lot of people. I say if you are inclined to join, consider the world climate, consider the political climate, and consider which branch is the best fit for what you bring and want from the experience. I saw a few BCD's and Other than Honorable's that may not have happened if these men had chosen other than the Marines. This is how I approached the subject with my son when he was considering enlisting.

Response by SPC Joel Quey made Jan 21 at 2022 2:21 PM

SPC Joel Quey — Fri, 21 Jan 2022 14:21:35 -0500

So wait, are you arguing that it's worse for troops that we're no longer at war than when we were?

I don't like that we left Iraq and Afghanistan, but I dislike staying there another 20+ years far more. For that matter, if we want to complain about anything, going there in the first place was probably the real problem. I'd much rather we not have more troops die over there for no reason

Response by Cpl Henry E Busby made Jan 25 at 2022 12:48 PM

Cpl Henry E Busby — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 12:48:38 -0500

And don't forget that Trump called us LOSERS because he could not see what we get out of it. Seems as though you agree?

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Feb 10 at 2022 10:51 AM

SSG Eric Blue — Thu, 10 Feb 2022 10:51:31 -0500

The reasons I'm seeing a lot of now are a guaranteed check, health benefits, and combat training for when personnel get out so that they can be recruited by a domestic terrorism group here in America. Not for pride, not for love of country, not for growth or maturity, not to avoid jail time, not to set themselves up for success later on in life with college or capital or networking resources, or anything like what myself and my ancestors came into service for.