As a squad leader, shall I push back on something that I “feel” is wrong to the leadership?

2022-06-13T12:15:47-04:00

Hi,
I am new squad leader in the army reserves..
So, this week, the leadership asked few folks to finish some paperwork(this was not a drill week) and they have a deadline to make it happen.
One of a very good member of my squad has his laptop broken and hence his cac wasn’t setup.
The leadership asked someone who can help him but no one was available at the moment.
Granted this was like a 10 min thing.
Now, I have been asked to counsel the SM.
I feel like, army should provide laptop and all if they expect SM to do all this at home. If the laptop is broken, then it’s not cheap to get it asap.
Not to mention, we waste a lot of time during BA.
So shall I just follow the orders or push back or something?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2022 2:26 PM

2022-06-13T14:26:08-04:00

Hooooo doggie. You've just experienced what everyone in a leadership spot in the Reserves faces. Here's the thing. Could you counsel your Soldier? Sure. Is it practical? Not really. Especially when elements were outside of your control and that of your Soldier. The conundrum is that your Leadership have deadlines to meet but outside of being on orders nor on BTA weekend, there isn't really anything administratively that can be done to your Soldier.

You speak of the Army Reserves providing government laptops to folks. The Reserves used to do that. But then some knuckleheads ruined it for everyone else. Now, it's just the unit Leadership that is given them.

Now, can you push back? Sure, you can. You can push back tactfully by stating that you did the counseling (and actually do it), and also tactfully remind your next level leadership that outside of BTA and/or not on orders, there is no real obligation/requirement. Because, unless the unit is going to pay the Soldiers for completing the task(s) outside of BTA, then this falls under the realm of indentured servitude...which is illegal. If the unit will submit a 1380 for pay....sure, then there is the incentive to get it done. If they won't submit a 1380 for pay...then illegal.

What I recommend is that in your counseling, in the Plan of Action section, if the Soldier has additional paperwork to do that requires a computer and CAC access, then they should go to the Reserve Center (if close by) or a NG Armory (if close by) or perhaps to visit a Recruiting Office to see if one of their computers can be used. If none of the COAs can be achieved, and/or the unit is not willing to pay to complete tasks outside of BTA...again, there is no obligation nor incentive for the Soldier to complete the tasks.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2022 3:13 PM

2022-06-13T15:13:52-04:00

First, it's a counseling, a written record of a discussion. Nothing more.
Second, this "paperwork", was it initially brought up for the first time this week between drills?
Or was it really due last drill, or earlier?
If the original suspense was NLT last drill, you probably should have already had the discussion and counseling.

And no, the Army shouldn't "have to provide a laptop". Active duty has the option of just going into the office or ed center, reserves have the option getting it done before drill is over, or just going to the nearest armory/ed center or anywhere else where a public access computers allow a CAC reader,
(every library in my city does).
And it's not unreasonable to expect most people to have a laptop, most do. The soldier in question even has one, just happened to break at the worst time.

And it's not unreasonable to expect these 10 min things between drill, after all, every drill you are getting paid two days for every one day there.

Your unit wastes a lot of time during drill? Most do. That doesn't mean you and your squad have to waste time. Read your training schedule, opords, fragos, etc, sit in on the meetings, determine the due-outs and get them done during drill while others are wasting their time.

Response by 2LT Brian L. made Jun 13 at 2022 5:53 PM

2022-06-13T17:53:51-04:00

A counseling is event oriented... meaning it records an event. Regardless of right or wrong what is the problem with recording the event? Maybe it would eventually end up protecting individual because now there is a record. One counseling doesn't destroy someone's career. I feel like you're fighting for almost no reason or just because of lack of understanding. Seems like a strange hill to die on.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 13 at 2022 10:48 PM

2022-06-13T22:48:40-04:00

A counseling is just a written record of a conversation. I don't know why people treat them like they're punishments.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2022 2:07 AM

2022-06-14T02:07:51-04:00

I think it's all about lining up your ducks and documenting how you push back.

Let the counseling happen, and then in the block you get to write comments that's where you push back respectfully. Basically, create a documented trail that can be used to push back through your chain of command, legal/IG and then eventually a congressional inquiry.

Push comes to shove, there is no regulation that I am required to own a personal smart phone and have access to it 24/7 so I can reply to new unit message updates about an up coming training or some event.

They can call me via voice or mail me via USPS if they want to reach out to me.

***
I always wonder how the USAR world worked back in 1990 when there was no connectivity. When at the end of a formation at a Battle Assembly would be the LAST TIME leadership communicated to their soldiers until the NEXT Battle Assembly.

If there was a change of training (between Battle Assemblies) then it had to be communicated one at a time by a phone call all the way down from the commander to the team leaders. I can imagine it would be a major pain in the ass. Therefor PLANNING would have to be much better.

Now, we are lazy with our planning commitments and are too quick to choose a course of action with the presumption we can change it later
***

What I have found out as I got more exposure to the inner workings of how the USAR works is the regulations allow E4 and below to be jerked around because the penalties that can be placed on them are easier to execute at the company level without judicial interference. Therefor it's easier to make them think they have to jump for every single little thing that's pushed down the pipe ever last little minute.

Once one is an NCO and an Officer it becomes a bit harder to nail them for petty things. Regulations and the judicial process make the effort very costly in terms of how far a COL might want to go to punish an LT over not doing his on-line training on time. Maybe it might be annotated as a bullet in an OER, but it's not going to stop the LT from becoming a CPT if the LT is not flagged and has completed required training for the next rank.

HELL!!!!!!!!!! There was a CPT in my unit and in 2 years I've never met the guy. Everyone keeps asking how we can contact him. He's so checked out he just stopped coming. Then he shows up on the UMR as a MAJ a few months ago. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**********
What your chain of command can do is force people to stay behind at BA to finish what needs to be finished. They have your undivided attention for FORTY EIGHT HOURS!!!!!!!!!!! So it's on you to manage your time if you want to get out of there sooner.

I once had my 1SG push back on me (when I was commander) that we needed to make MONDAY an additional BA day so we could catch up on a bunch of admin things. I was left wonder why this was such a big deal. Because the consequences of conflicts with civilian work would be astronomical. I was NOT in favor of doing this.

My 1SG kept pushing me. FINALLY!!!! I had to ask......... What are the consequences if we do not get this admin tasker done??? She said CSM would be mad..........

HAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Yea, NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not rearranging a MUTA on the training schedule because CSM says jump. It the Battalion Commander isn't harping on me for this then it's not important enough \.

***********
I guess what I'm saying is just do we we can as USAR soldiers, and it will all work itself out.

NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That said, I have also learned as a solider and leader I am in a VERY POWERFUL POSITION career wise if I have computer accessibility to get USAR work done at a moments notice. I can stay on top of things, not get broadsided and over all come out smelling like roses.

Work towards that goal and you will rise to the top of your USAR career. Otherwise, just count the days till ETS because at the end of it all even totally incompetent flagged soldiers get Honorable discharges at the end of the contract (unless there is serious criminal UCMJ or drug flags) who are barred from reenlistment. So who cares about a counseling statement. Just sign it, make note of it, and annotate your position so it can be referenced in the future in a legal setting.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Jun 14 at 2022 3:14 PM

2022-06-14T15:14:35-04:00

Counsel your squad member, BUT do it in a way that,
1. highlights his/her having no access to a computer (this poinits out that the counselling really is moot; but better still, not harmful to the SM)
2. word it so that it eliminates any successive punishment for the same type of situation (item 1, above) [You want to SHIELD the SM from this type of BS, while you comply with being instructed to counsel him - you're both covered that way.]
Aside from the counselling statement, do you and that SM live close enough that he could use your computer? I don't know how CAC cards work - hell, in my day there were no computers!
As someone else noted, if you and the SM aren't close enough, or he's too far from the Reserve Center, maybe a nearby Recruiter can let him use theirs under their supervision. That was good advice by MSG Private RallyPoint Member.
Or, is your 1SG accessible and would he or she understand the issue? If so, you could suggest to whoever told you to counsel the SM that the 1SG be informed about the problem - the NO COMPUTER; and NOT your feelings about being told to write a counselling statement. You could sugges to him/her that a counselling statement, "might" make you both look bad - unless he/she was TOLD to have your counsel the SM. SUGGEST that if the SM were to file an IG Complaint, it could cause the unit command problems.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jun 15 at 2022 11:07 AM

2022-06-15T11:07:48-04:00

Yes do your counceling session, but in this session you should help the service member know what to do or how to get help. Counseling a SM isn't always negative, it can be helpful, positive, but the fact is you need to do it. So how would you access a computer if you don't have one, think, that is what a leader does. Reserves are different, there is a lot of private time used on Army stuff, just one example. If I got paid for all the hours I put into the Army Reserve at home, I would be a millionair (23yrs). Just part of it. As a Leader you need to help the SM solve the problem, not always bust his ass. Requires you to put some thought into it. Ask yourself the same question.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2023 9:59 AM

2023-03-15T09:59:03-04:00

Push back baby