ARTICLE: Military Hazing and Why It’s Necessary

SSG Kevin McCulley — Tue, 20 May 2014 08:20:43 -0400

This is gonna be a doozy, but I would like to start a discussion on the article found here: http://shtfjournal.com/current-affairs/military-hazing-necessary/

Military Hazing and Why It's Necessary - The SHTF Journal

Some people have this idea that it's possible to have a group of men, trained to kill our nation’s enemies, & expect them to always behave in a civil manner

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 9:10 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 09:10:04 -0400

SSG McCulley,
Although I understand the concept of hazing as tradition and building bonds the mentality of victim blaming for suicide is not the way to address the problem. I do not personally believe that an author who writes "This loser chose to kill himself" about a suicide victim has a firm grasp of the mental health situation.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 20 at 2014 11:23 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 20 May 2014 11:23:05 -0400

I think the discussion of hazing, pecking order/ male hierarchy and dominance in the movie "Restrepo" raise some great points about life in an all male combat unit... It's not like every other unit. It doesn't function on pretty pleases and manners..

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 11:59 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 11:59:30 -0400

Is hazing in the military neccessary? No. There are so many more ways to build the bond of a unit, work center, or command. Being continually beat down by your peers isn't going to make you respect them, but fear them. When something is done to an individual repeatedly over and over again, it is making them resent and hate you. I know this from both perspectives, the hazer and hazee. It isn't the hazing that brings people closer in a unit, it is the joking and praises after the hazing happens. When it is said and done and you are helping the hazee get cleaned up and giving pats on the back for their courage and fortitude to make it through the whole process. If you just do the endpraising and helping and not the hazing, they will follow and be ready to do combat beside you 100% of the time, everytime. Here is a quote for you by Major John M. Shofield "The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and to give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or the other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them regard for himself, while he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect toward others, especially his inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself."

Response by LTC Jonathan Howell, CSEP, PMP made May 20 at 2014 2:30 PM

LTC Jonathan Howell, CSEP, PMP — Tue, 20 May 2014 14:30:49 -0400

Hazing is a social act not a professional act. The US military is an all-volunteer, professional force. The use of the term hazing to describe tough, realistic, performance-oriented training to well-defined, challenging standards is flawed. Hazing does not contribute toward the transformation of any volunteer from a member-of-society to a professional soldier. That transition is provided by instruction on battle tasks required of soldiers. Good leaders use corrective training to reinforce lessons where deficiencies in performance are demonstrated. Hazing provides membership in an exclusive clique at best - and occasionally contributes toward toxic unit performance at worst. Hazing doesn't make units better or improve soldier performance; training and leadership does that. Good quote from Schofield.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 2:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 14:53:26 -0400

Builds character!!

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made May 20 at 2014 5:48 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Tue, 20 May 2014 17:48:23 -0400

My question is this,
Us hazing the humiliation and belittlement if a person, and if so then I agree this is wrong.
But is the pinning on if rank,wings,NCO stripes, etc.. Is that considered hazing or just time honored traditions.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 6:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 18:41:39 -0400

Love the article. If you went to "AIT" you just wouldn't understand.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 20 at 2014 8:38 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Tue, 20 May 2014 20:38:20 -0400

I do not know what was done that constituted hazing per this article. The young man should have been referred to sick call and had follow-up work done to see if he had a physiological condition that made staying awake impossible.

My senior drill had just rotated back from Viet Nam and worked us hard. We had no idea there were cattlecars available to transport us to the ranges in the morning-we were long gone humping to the ranges before the trucks showed up. Why? Because he watched people die because they could not physically handle the load, and he was determined to weed those candidates out before we would get deployed.

Was he a miserable, unsympathetic SOB who never smiled or joked, and made us begin to experience physical and emotional discomfort none of us ever dreamed of? You bet. Did I thank him afterwards with all my military heart? You bet. Did my "misery" in basic even begin to approach what I eventually experienced? Not even close.

Many have spoken of falling asleep equating to buddies dying. I heard about a number of situations where guys on sentry smoked a joint and fell asleep, which allowed Victor Charlie to come in and slice throats. A good reason to ban any joints or drugs on patrol, period.

What is training-what is hazing-what is murder? I don't know for sure-there seems to be a lot of confusion on this point. Unless you're the one whose buddy, son, brother, or Dad was the one who had his throat cut - especially if someone fell asleep at the switch which allowed his team to be killed.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made May 21 at 2014 9:31 AM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Wed, 21 May 2014 09:31:50 -0400

Hazing is never acceptable. It does not accomplish anything.

If PVT Snuffy shows up late to formation and an NCO take the private out back and runs him through gorilla drills for half and hour, it becomes hazing.

However, if PVT Snuffy is a PT failure, is properly counseled for not meeting unit or Army standards, and the NCO conducts the same gorilla drills the NCO is engaging in extra or corrective training. This is much more in line with AR 27-10 paragraph 3-3.

Leaders have responsibility to treat subordinates in an ethical manner that looks toward their long-term development and the improvement of the force. Hazing does not do that.

Response by SGT Shon D. Hill made May 21 at 2014 12:13 PM

SGT Shon D. Hill — Wed, 21 May 2014 12:13:59 -0400

For those commenting, have you been in combat? Direct fire, ambush, not just mortar round incoming! I'm sending that there is a gap here that can't be filled! Seriously, 30 minutes of smoking for PVT SNUFFY! I'm proud I did much worse to a few privates! I was a softy by most standards then too! I'm kind of pissed about this issue but I suppose I'll just woooosaaaahh, find my happy place! I respect your opinions though, but my PVT SNUFFY is now your 1st SGT! And I love hearing him complain that it's now abuse! Should he thank me or sue me? Not to pick on you Cadet, but I'm going to warn you to read a lot, comment little or you may get verbally abused! From seasoned NCO to future officer.....Doc Hill.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 21 at 2014 2:22 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Wed, 21 May 2014 14:22:33 -0400

There is a difference between tough training and hazing.. Hazing does nothing, hazing is an immature act for the sake of making someones life miserable because someone is amused by watching someone be miserable. Troops need to be trained, not hazed. Our enemies will cut us down in a second and we need training to deal with them, not petty acts of an immature sense of humor.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2014 5:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 May 2014 17:33:59 -0400

I feel as though hazing is really just a lazy mans way of getting results. It will work, but you will damage soldiers and reduce your over all effectiveness. I was hazed as a private and it did make me a tougher man, but 90% of the time I was just thinking that thus NCO is an a$$hole. Effectively leading soldiers, holding them responsible for their actions, and spending the time to train them is 100% effective. Going through hard training and coming out on the other side victorious is MUCH more effective than smoking the whole platoon because one guy forgot to shave that morning... Effective leaders are the ones who are involved and invested in their soldiers... Hazing is just lazy leadership

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 10:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:58:13 -0500

What is, and is not, hazing is relative. Spur Rides is a long standing cavalry tradition that many have described as officially sanctioned hazing in training/testing form. Basic Training is (was?) chock full of unbridled in-your-face aggression designed to intimidate and "break down" soldiers for the sake of their professional development.

There's always been a concept here that's resonated with me. That being that "if you can't take ___, then what makes you think you'll be able to handle combat?" You don't like getting yelled at? You don't like getting shoved around a little bit? You don't like being stressed? Then what are you doing in the Army where your sole purpose in existence is to fight Americas enemies? Do you think the enemy is going to be a bunch of hippies putting flowers in your weapon's barrel?

I get it. Not everyone is combat arms, and maybe my views on this are colored by my line experience, but I feel that certain types of "hazing" has a place and purpose. The key here is "place and purpose," meaning that hazing should never be done for the sake of hazing. If done it should be for the sake of building a soldier better suited for the battlefield. I understand that my opinion is likely in the minority, but this is just how I feel about the subject.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2015 3:18 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 03:18:55 -0500

Take a page out of our Korean ally's book. They are dealing with a hazing epidemic which has resulted in their Soldiers killing themselves at a tragic rate and also Soldiers attempting murder suicides with the hazers as the targets. Let's not degenerate to this as a professional Army and enforce standards where hazing is NOT acceptable.