Army LT Gets 20-years in Prison for Violating Rules of Engagement

2014-05-08T21:07:58-04:00

What are your thoughts about murder charges during war?

Prosecutors said 1LT Clint Lorance ordered his men to open fire immediately in violation of the military’s rules of engagement, which requires soldiers to hold fire unless they have evidence of hostile action or hostile intent. They said three men on a motorcycle approached the patrol in July 2012. Two were killed and the third ran away.

1LT Lorance was sentenced to 20 years in prison, forfeiture of pay and dismissal from the military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 10:03 PM

2014-05-08T22:03:06-04:00

MSG
My initial thoughts are its complete BS and heavily influenced by politics.

However, I have not read the AAR, nor have I really dug into the situation that much.

That being said, having been a hard charging, door kicking, trigger pulling grunt back early in my career. I can see it having detrimental effects on the troops that are BoG. If they are consistantly being second guessed, or monday morning quarterbacked by politicians, lawyers, etc, they will err on the side of caution and could potentially drive up the death toll of friendly forces.

There are definitely some situations where murder charges are completely appropriate however, e.g. ff a prisoner is in custody and is subsequently shot in the back of the head while restrained and it was not an execution ordered by a military tribunal.

Response by MSgt David Mata made May 8 at 2014 10:25 PM

2014-05-08T22:25:11-04:00

THIS IS SCARY...I WONDER WHAT THE ELTEES (LT) RESPONSE IS?..20 YEARS SOUNDS LIKE IT MUST BE EGREGIOUS, HOWEVER, I WILL NEVER BE A FAN OF MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING...IF HIS MEN WERE SAFER BECAUSE OF THE "ILLEGAL" ORDER AND CAME HOME ALIVE, THEN, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED...GODSPEED SIR...

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 9 at 2014 3:41 AM

2014-05-09T03:41:55-04:00

I believe he got off lucky. But what happened to the soldiers who were just following orders, were they brought up on charges as well?

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 9 at 2014 5:11 AM

2014-05-09T05:11:54-04:00

I don't have the necessary information to Monday Morning Quarterback this one. I will say war is hell and in a heated scary environment, stuff happens that wouldn't happen normally. If you are manning a check point and someone approaches to fast, you don't know if they are carrying a bomb or bear you ill will. Also there are plenty of examples of Mai Lais. It is very rare that Military Men are brought up on these kind of charges. Having functioned as a Master at Arms and working within the Military Justice system I will say that the Military Evidence system is the worst and definitely doesn't help the accused but in the sentencing with the "Fairness Doctrine" if you are found guilty you can have a better outcome than if you were found guilty by the Criminal Court.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 5:13 AM

2014-05-09T05:13:42-04:00

While I am not in a situation to regularly be in combat, I think it is bullshit if people have to worry more about casualty form a potential enemy than there own men. Ever since the Vietnam war was romanticized this problem has been around, now more so than ever. there is no reason why someone should have to second guess what there actions may represent for consequences.

Now, if they shot some random people for no reason that is a different story.

Response by SSG John Bacon made May 9 at 2014 12:10 PM

2014-05-09T12:10:51-04:00

I fee that this is complete BS. But as others have said we weren't there and the AAR hasn't been released, what I do know is that the Taliban has used this tactic before. A squad of 2-3 on a motor bike to get intel fallback to their weapons and set up an ambush. it's a judgment call really because if you don't shoot you most certainly are going to get ambushed and by a lot more than 3. That's what happened with Operation Redwing, you get discovered try to do the "correct" thing and get you group killed because of ROE.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 4:54 AM

2014-05-10T04:54:15-04:00

Stuff like this is why I wont pick a combat MOS. ROE is crazy now a days...

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made May 10 at 2014 9:43 AM

2014-05-10T09:43:32-04:00

The article sucks & seems very, VERY one-sided. If what is written is all the facts of the case then he got what he deserves (prison), or may even deserve a more harsh sentence. However, keep in mind that its very easy to judge a man when you are not in his shoes, at that specific point in time.

I really wonder how many VBIED's/Suicide motorcyclist his platoon faced during combat operations. While it does not excuse the killing innocent people, I do understand the emotions during direct combat operations, especially after losing your men. And when they use a cowardice tactic of a Suicide Vehicle Born method to carry out their destruction it can be even harder to deal with.

Response by SGT Steven Dvorak made May 10 at 2014 9:57 AM

2014-05-10T09:57:59-04:00

Much like many of you, I can't make a complete judgment call without the AAR. However, any individual who has been in direct combat can feel the situation can warrant a thousand different possibilities. That is exactly what makes leadership what it is. Did he make the call out of fear? Maybe. Did he make the call to protect his patrol? Who knows.

During my second deployment to Iraq, the TTP of using children and mentally handicapped PBIED/suicide vests were all the rage. You can imagine the mental anguish of having to look at every kid as a potential threat. If the TTP is a three person motorcycle crew, I can see where this LT could see them as a threat.

Again, without AAR, I refuse to pass judgement and I would hope many of you to operate in the same manner.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-05-10T15:09:12-04:00

From what I read on this story previously (and please correct me if I'm wrong), this LT ordered his soldiers to fire on any motorcycle they saw. Now, I can understand emotion and frustration downrange, but if that was the order that was given, then he should be held accountable. This is the frustrating situation we're in - the military is meant to go in and conquer, not police. But it is the situation we're in.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 5:52 PM

2014-05-10T17:52:22-04:00

I feel very sorry for 1LT Lorance and his family. This sad affair will change their lives forever.

I do not know the facts. But, sometimes lawyers and legal process are unfair. Perhaps we let him down in some way: training, oversight, and/or having his back?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 6:19 PM

2014-05-10T18:19:21-04:00

I am scared that political correctness and an agenda is putting our troops in harm's way. I do not know enough about this situation but I find it ironic in war that you basically have to shoot second and what about all those IEDs and suicide attacks. This administration is playing with fire.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made May 10 at 2014 8:55 PM

2014-05-10T20:55:55-04:00

I won't say whether the guy got what he deserved or not but from reading this an other articles, it sounds like he had ZERO support from anyone in his Unit to include his Soldiers. That speaks volumes. I'm sure that played a major role in his conviction.
Again we weren't there so we can't say anything, but those who were there fed him to the wolves.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 9:31 PM

2014-05-10T21:31:40-04:00

I could only imagine what a Ranger or an Operator would get if we're enforcing the ROE across the board

Response by CPT Jack Durish made May 11 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-05-11T11:32:12-04:00

Making decisions, taking responsibility, this is why LTs get paid the "big bucks". I too cannot comment on this specific instance. I have no first hand knowledge and must depend on the strange ways of justice to sort it out. However, whenever I see the phrase "rules of engagement" I cringe.

All too often the rules of engagement are merely a political cop out. Politicians send our military to kill people and break things (as one popular commentator describes it) and then tempers their judgement with rules of engagement to make sure that we do it nicely. The problem is that few politicians understand war in any form (a remarkably small percentage of Congress is comprised of veterans) and the President not only doesn't have any experience with war, but also none with foreign relations, economic management, or anything else. (BTW, don't jump on me for my opinion. That's fact!)

Thus, another life is taken. Another life is ruined. All because we can't select political leaders with the brains and experience to make good decisions and the balls to stand behind them, and military leaders are left to sort it all out

Response by TSgt Brian Herman made May 11 at 2014 7:55 PM

2014-05-11T19:55:40-04:00

I think the original question is very relevant.
"PC", is the single greatest threat to this nation.
Regarding the "victims"....They poked the bear, and got bit.
Regarding the "offense"...
There is a reason we have military, and police forces that are separate from each other. If I were a noncombatant I don't think I would tempt my fate, by harassing a convoy. However, I do think it was entirely appropriate for the troop commander to defend his convoy.
Sadly, we don't have the actual charges, or access to any of the jury instructions, or any other information regarding the events that took place. And, honestly, for me to "think out loud" anymore about this, I will look and sound like a racist murdering bastard, that hates everyone that isn't like me..(white)
However, it seems that this guy is a guilty, as maj nidal hasan is innocent of terrorism against US personnel on US soil.
For the same reason. the "thought police" seems to have become a real thing.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-05-12T14:40:38-04:00

I really have nothing to add here other than this; If he would have gotten off the charges, all we would see/hear on here is how "if he would have been enlisted he would have gotten slammed". I really hate to see these threads and everybody's "opinions". The most of us have been deployed, some of us have been in sticky situations where we had to make decisions that could have been the result of life or death. There is nothing I hate more than "I would have did this" comments.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2014 9:33 PM

2014-07-10T21:33:11-04:00

Why can't I delete an entire post???

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 10 at 2014 11:27 PM

2014-07-10T23:27:50-04:00

ROE are initiated by political hacks who have never been in combat, we have gone nuts over this, there were millions killed in WWII to include civilians, today we grieve over 4000. War kills civilians, tough thing but reality. When especially in these times, when the enemy wears no uniform and we try to fit Rules of Warfare into a conflict that is much different than we ever saw,we need to rethink, ROE

Response by SSG Richard Ladner made Sep 8 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-09-08T12:29:41-04:00

this is what happens when desk jockeys and politicians try to second guess the man on the ground. get the damn politics and the media out of the zone and let the troops get the job done. what happens outside the wire,, stays outside the wire. the only good haji is a dead haji

Response by SMSgt Douglas Vaughan made Sep 8 at 2014 12:35 PM

2014-09-08T12:35:53-04:00

What's amazing is the commanding support for his actions. I am also in agreement. What is also amazing is the focus of JAG officers who are given more credit for their prosecutions than saving someone's career. I had a few friends in the JAG corp and they said that the ADC doesn't get near the credit as their counterparts in prosecution. It seems the prosecution at times is more concerned about winnning than Justice. If the Lt's actions did save the lives of his troops, good for you Lt. I

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Aug 4 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-08-04T19:14:04-04:00

Among other subjects, I teach ROE, Escalation of Force, and Negotiation to battalion commanders and their staff prior to deployment. I joke with the Lieutenants and Captains that they, personally, have to take the first bullet, and then hope their NCOs will EVAC them out when the shooting is over. We all laugh, but it's a limited laugh because we all know it's true.

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 7 at 2015 11:07 AM

2015-11-07T11:07:28-05:00

I do not know the specifics of this case, so I will not comment n it directly.
That said, the rules of engagement must be followed for even in war there are limits and it is a leader's responsibility to know and enforce the rules as they exist. The fog of war will inevitably obscure the clarity of the lines in any battle situation, yet at the end of it all we must be accountable for adhering to the rules. If we do not, what is the true difference, moral, legal and ethical, between me and mine enemy?

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Apr 21 at 2016 10:53 PM

2016-04-21T22:53:19-04:00

How many young prospective leaders have backed away from the service because of 1LT Lorance's conviction?

Response by SPC Todd Fitzgerald made Apr 18 at 2017 5:00 PM

2017-04-18T17:00:04-04:00

Just stumbled across this as it was linked from another site. Wish I had seen it two years ago. Surprise nobody mentioned thr testimony of those of us that were there or the numerous crimes that he committed. If there was ever an example of the justice system working, this is it.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2017 7:33 AM

2017-04-20T07:33:49-04:00

Killing civilians is not just an ROE violation. It is a war crime. It's tough, but if there was any doubt he probably would not have been convicted. I imagine his military counsel (who are almost always more experienced than the prosecutors) would have presented evidence of enemy TTPs to justify his actions, if any existed. Otherwise, what justification would he have to shoot some guys on a motorcycle?

Response by CPL Carter Buckner made May 31 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-05-31T19:38:09-04:00

Free this man

Response by SSG Jess Peters made Nov 26 at 2018 10:16 PM

2018-11-26T22:16:34-05:00

This is insane. How was he to know the intent of those on the motorcycle? There have been many killed by people wearing explosive vests. He had a choice wait for them to approach, putting his soldiers at risk, or stop them. Rules of engagement such as this are too arbitrary.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2019 8:37 PM

2019-04-15T20:37:58-04:00

does anyone know what the charge is for breaking ROE?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2020 5:32 AM

2020-09-17T05:32:26-04:00

Good morning