Army BCT: Drop Rate between Red and White Phase - what do you think is the cause?

Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 13:54:33 -0400

I Belong to closed parent group on facebook for my sons BCT battlion. These are parents of recruits in his Battlion and Regiment. This weekend I saw a lot of messages from parents saying "my son just wrote me and hes coming home" and people getting phone calls of same tone. Im shocked. The parents group is now discussing ways to support kid if they make this choice - still love them etc.

I of course would still love my child but - I dont know - I raised my kid to commit to something. Finish what he started. I know recruits are allowed to quit Basic, but i would be super disappointed if he did. He comes from military family, we told him what to expect. Short of medical issues - which you cant control - I would not be happy if he choose to quit. Ive choosen to not sure my feelings with the group because I dont want to offend or hurt feelings.

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What do you think is the source for so many Failure to Adapts?
Makes me wonder what is happening in his Company. He seems fine - basically "Mom this sucks but its temporary - got my m4, training is interesting, Im hungry and need more sleep"

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Sep 12 at 2017 2:07 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:07:40 -0400

Some of the recruits are not quite up to the rigors of such physical ways.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 2:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:07:55 -0400

Technology, addiction to social media, being afraid to speak to a person so they choose to txt and use Facebook. That's why so many people out there get cat fished. Its the millennial thing. Its getting ridiculous.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 12 at 2017 2:34 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:34:40 -0400

It may be as simple as, the service has made it easier to quit, put less effort and time in to retaining.
Its a tough call on a DS part to decide, is this one I stop working with, and let them quit, It would be better for both them and the service vice, "If I can only get them to hang in a bit longer, they will learn what that can take, endure, and realize that CAN make it, thus be better for it..."
Many moons ago when I was a DS, its was a numbers game to some point... Early in the cycle the BN would support a entry level separation (ELS) pretty much upon submission. "SM you want to go home? Yes? Ok there is your bus ticket, off you go"
And while "numbers" were not mentioned in front of company level cadre (that I know of), we all knew there was a magic number the BN CDR needed to graduate to be considered a success by his superiors, and falling below that was seen as a failure on his part (meaning his cadre) to train the SM properly.
So later in cycle (as the BN/BDE/ neared its "number" an ELS package had to have serious justification and even then, the SM was often moved to another company, or even recycled more than once.
The DS knew we did no one a favor by retaining those SM... The SM was set up for failure at their future unit, and the unit was set up for issues now having to deal with an SM that was not adapting, be it mentally, discipline issues, training inability, physicality weakness.
But going over the "number" was not something you could get the BN to do with ease .. AWOL maybe, physical attack on a fellow SM, only if it was a near deadly attack or sexual in nature.

Perhaps the Army came to its senses and decided it was better (cheaper even) to have fewer fully qualified SM at the end of the cycle, then passing on marginal at best SM to a unit, only to be separated later.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 2:39 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:39:09 -0400

Private RallyPoint Member Good question. I went through Marine Corps Boot Camp, which is different than BCT. My father was an Air Force Captain and he was killed when his plane crashed in a training accident. He had served in WWII and Korea. I was seven at the time, and my mother died when I was 15. I joined because I thought it was the right thing to do. Boot Camp was a culture shock, but I would have died before quitting. You raised your children to finish what they start. As your son mentioned, it sucks, but it is temporary. Some of these other kids have probably not been taught to always finish what you start.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 2:50 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:50:16 -0400

The Army spends a very large amount of money trying to answer your question, and still hasn't.

I'm sure some older types will blame the "entitled millennial generation." But the reality has always been that there simply are some people who cannot handle the military, always has been, always will be, even if they're qualified for it. Most people- not just these darn millennials- have never handled the unique stresses that the military brings, and some just aren't cut out for it.

Every company has people drop- and I'm betting your sons company is nothing special, those Facebook groups always make me chuckle with parents commenting about THE HUGE NUMBER AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVING PROBLEMS OMG THE ARMY IS MESSING UP...when in reality, 10-20 drops is absolutely normal for a BCT company. I usually advise parents not to get involved with them, because they present a seriously skewed picture of reality.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 5:24 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:24:11 -0400

I was just surprised

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 5:26 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:26:57 -0400

I remember my Platoon having near 50, so let's say the Company had 200 for easy numbers and I think 30 dropped or were recycled. Sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's mental. It's not for everyone or we'd have more than 3% of the population as Veterans.

Response by SGT Peter Hayes made Sep 12 at 2017 5:58 PM

SGT Peter Hayes — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:58:14 -0400

not everyone is cut out for the military and no matter how much you try to prepare them for BCT you can never really prepare them for the culture shock they are going to experience. For me BCT was easy others not so much. If it was for everyone then everyone would be in. It's like anything else if it's not meant for you then it not for you.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Sep 12 at 2017 6:29 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:29:49 -0400

Well despite what many Parents feel of their kids. Failing BCT is not a small issue and many that do that regret doing so later on in life. Some internalize the failure and it impacts their life choices later on (far less risk averse). Of course you don't disown the kid for failing to complete but you should hold them accountable for it vs saying "it is alright lets try something else". I would say......"well you failed at this, what did you learn and what are you going to try to better in next time you set an objective". In a competitive society I personally do not believe it is OK to fail repeatedly, that is the path to dependency and welfare, in my view.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Sep 12 at 2017 6:46 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:46:07 -0400

Private RallyPoint Member Back in my day they just lined them up if they didn't want to be there and they chaptered them out. I saw about 15 to 20 people line up that day and they just were saying they weren't going to take any mor crap from the Drill Instructors (DIs). They were there to train us and prepare us for battle, it wasn't the Glee Club! Most of the people quit because they didn't want to be pushed or trained or they couldn't handle the discipline! That's just my perspective from a 17 year old back in 1975.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 9:32 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 21:32:58 -0400

I, of course, did USMC boot camp. And yes, the program (early 80s) was designed to rock your world mentally and cull those that did not have the mental fortitude to improvise, adapt and overcome all challenges thrown their way.

For me, personally, I knew I would graduate. Even with my Mom's pep-talk before going. Her words to me: "You will never make it." But, then again, she was born in 1924, grew up in her early years during the Great Depression, survived USMC boot camp and served in the Marine Corps Women's Reserve full time during WW-II. (Yes, my mom wore combat boots!)

I fully believe boot camp, any branch, is more mental than it is physical. I had a lot of fun in boot camp because I *CHOSE* to have fun. And yes, I had those hell days too. Never once did the thought of quitting cross my mind.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 10:46 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 22:46:10 -0400

What do you think is the source for so many Failure to Adapts?

I'd bet deep down inside you know and have seen the answer, it is all around us. Males are demonized in society and the stronger the male the better it is to go after them and target them for some perceived ill or issue of society. Boys today lack role models and men today do not want the responsibility of being a man and all the responsibilities that are associated. Man/boy would rather play video games then hold down a steady job. Man/boy would rather sit on their collective asses all day rather than earn an honest living and support a family. It is embedded in literature, television shows, political commercials, and even Antifa has all female groups. // The answer is males need to go back being males and leading families and growing children. Men need to grow their children and serve as a parent rather than a friend. In the end, we do our children no favors in making them safe from all the ills of the world. Take the training wheels off and demand excellence and soon we will see our boys achieve great results again.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2017 11:53 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 23:53:14 -0400

Ft SILL cadre reported that the normal dropout rate on average was 4% per cycle. Of course they lied to us initially and states it was 7% but overall dropout rates were due to PT failures and maybe t total were due to DOR.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2017 2:29 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 02:29:02 -0400

I remember a guy who just gave up. He could physically do it, but for some reason gave up and just... I don't know, stopped. I also knew a guy that gave up, but decided part way through that he wanted to go through with it again. He was cycled into the next class and as I understand graduated. I also remember an incident in which the MP's and 1SG got involved... You don't see Top walk in with your Senior DS and an MP and not be a little scared as to what's going to happen. Long story short, the guy was separated. Looking back I actually miss it, and guys who were in the same Platoon as me say the same thing. At the time it sucked, you could never be right, everything that made sense was wrong. You can't talk to your family, you don't sleep well, you're squared away but get jacked up because 3rd Platoon did something stupid. 73 days seemed like it went on forever but once you're done it seems like it went by rather quick.

73 days... That's what you have to deal with, if you're not OSUT. Some guys deal with it just fine, some guys lose their cool, and some guys just break down. Especially after phone calls home... I didn't understand it at the time, but those phone calls were really damaging to some guys. Their girlfriend is with Jodie, the wife has misgivings about service, there's an issue with bills or the kids... I watched guys break down crying after phone calls. I savored every second to call my brother or other family, and other guys it undid weeks of training in 5 minutes and all of a sudden they didn't want to be there anymore.

Response by PFC Jonathan Albano made Sep 13 at 2017 6:12 AM

PFC Jonathan Albano — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:12:18 -0400

I think there's a certain strength in knowing when to call it quits. The time between red and white phase, as I remember, was emotionally the hardest part of basic training- and many of my buddies who had been deployed have told me that basic is nothing compared to their experience. As such, if they can't even handle basic, I personally wouldn't want to risk putting them on a battlefield. By no means does that mean their family should pat them on the back and say "It's ok sport! Here's an ice-cream to make you feel better!" but it does mean that there should be a certain amount of acceptance, and even respect, for their decision. I guarantee you the former recruits are beating themselves up enough without their loved ones' help. The best thing a loved one can do for those who quit is to light a fire under their flattering side. The military may not have been for them, however, they need to take their experience, learn from it, and apply the new knowledge gained to figure out their place in life. Perhaps, after they get some more experience under their belt, they will have found the drive they need to be a good soldier, airman, ect. and give it another go. Otherwise, they may just become successful at something else. Essentially, as long as they don't use their failure as an excuse to laze around, I wouldn't hold it over their head. I'd simply give them the support they need to carry on.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 13 at 2017 12:14 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:14:08 -0400

The system is designed to have drops. You want to spend the least amount of money figuring out who to keep. It likely does a good job of weeding out about 80% of who shouldn't be a MIL. Most the other 20% discover various RE-3/4 codes their first 1-3 years in. It's too easy to say "millennials". It's better to say it's more how you were brought up, how well or poorly you made a choice, etc. because that's where the rub is. I've watched more first hand on the "type" of input the services have. It's different now. When you have parents who remember the Depression, fought WW-II, etc., they remember the adversity and you grow up understanding their adversity. There was a higher percentage of parents that are into self control, responsibility, consequences, etc. because it was either that or you went hungry. It has become more diluted but it's not the kid's fault. So the services have to adjust to deal with the average input, hence have structured in a better early primary filter. It's there by design. That the number is high is telling me it's working. So to reduce the dropout rate between the phases you describe, it would take a cheaper/better filter prior to that. I'd expect that there isn't a likely reliable candidate because of what the process does now. If you ever wondered why there is this pressure cooker environment, it's what has been proven successful for millennia. There is some science now that points to fulling activating the frontal lobe. You need that to be a grown up. You need that to grasp the notion of responsibility, team play when the chips are down, etc. It's too dangerous to guess that it's there. It must be there. You can tell your son that the old guy says to "Embrace the suck". You'll both see something different and better at the end.

Response by SP5 Peter Keane made Sep 13 at 2017 12:37 PM

SP5 Peter Keane — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:37:26 -0400

What is Red and White phase ?

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Sep 13 at 2017 3:05 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:05:29 -0400

Conformity, adaptation, and stress induced in the form of a screaming, demanding DI/TI who ridicules for the sake of making people work harder as individuals as well as a team, is difficult for young men and women who have not experienced rigor in their lives prior to the military. Surprisingly ,(at least to me)when I was in, the ones who are most likely to make it through Basic/Boot are former boy scouts, band kids, and people raised on farms. They are used to working in a team environment, can accept correction, and are already indoctrinated into the importance of the uniform. The system is designed to tear the recruit down and rebuild them. Just an old guys opinion....

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 13 at 2017 5:08 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:08:06 -0400

After reading all of these responses I am reminded that I am old and out of touch. In the sixties you could get kicked out (hard to do) but quiting was not possible. Failing PT tests just got you more PT until you could pass and a bad attitude could result in all sorts of unpleasant things but rarely a trip home. Other than that I came from a family who had all served in WWII, didn't believe in Vietnam and didn't want me to join but would have had no respect at all for a quitter. I was taught that if you started something you finished it and you did the best that you could possibly do. If you do the best that you can possibly do even BCT is not bad.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 7 at 2018 10:17 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 07 May 2018 22:17:59 -0400

Because today's kids want the easy route- where is my cell phone, why do I have to eat in the DFAC, why am I doing this everyday, etc. They come in with pre-conceived notions, of glory, Rambo and easy money- then they find they have to work their butt off. Many come in just barely hitting the minimums, and don't want to improve- so we have no use for them wasting our time and money.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made May 8 at 2018 12:27 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Tue, 08 May 2018 12:27:39 -0400

The Army isn't for everyone - it doesn't matter if he comes from a military family either. Not everyone is built to serve.

The source of so many failure to adapt is because some people just can't adapt to the military culture. They just can't. More people are also less active than they used to be.

It's not just his company - it's overall. The military has said that the majority of the population doesn't meet standards to enlist. They're issuing mental health waivers in some cases the last year or so. They issued moral waivers from 05-08 for the surge because people just weren't qualified.

I went in 2004 - we had people get dropped then too. Not all medical. My ex brother in law didn't even make it to basic. He signed up for the Reserves. At the time he was dating my best friend and wasn't my brother in law but he went two months before I went to basic. He didn't even get out of reception. They started to discharge him for failure to adapt and some minor medical thing and he spent two months at Jackson getting discharged. He got back like a week before I left.

Then in AIT I was talking to him and my friend and it came up and he said "you don't know what it was like...' I said yes I know because I completed basic training."

I doubt yoru son's company is anything special or out of the ordinary. Probably normal drop rates.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2018 12:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 May 2018 12:35:59 -0400

I think the parents responses are a pretty clear indicator of what the problem is.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2018 5:15 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Aug 2018 17:15:28 -0400

From my experience, the USMC DI's wouldn't give up on you as long as you put forth the effort to stay. Or, some disqualifier required you go. They had many places to bring you back on track and as long as you weren't scamming and never quit trying they would keep you. The "unsuited" usually appeared early in training. Their end ranged from the first contact with DI's through the early first phase of boot.