Are you/we surprised? U.S. Soldiers, Back in Iraq, Find Security Forces in Disrepair....

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:11:14 -0400

Yes, we did the best we could to train and hand over security and policing to the GOI, within the timelines we were given... But did, we leave too soon?

Did you have confidence in the long term prognosis when you left?

Remember, before you comment/opine... We are still in Germany, Japan, Korea etc... Lasting change takes a long time to take root.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/world/middleeast/iraq-military-united-states-forces-camp-taji.html?_r=2

"Iraq’s army looked good on paper when the Americans left, after one of the biggest training missions carried out under wartime conditions. But after that, senior Iraqi officers began buying their own commissions, paying for them out of the supply, food and payroll money of their troops. Corruption ran up and down the ranks; desertion was rife."

To save articles or get newsletters, alerts or recommendations – all free.

Response by SGT Dylan Epp made Apr 15 at 2015 9:27 AM

SGT Dylan Epp — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:27:10 -0400

We left years too early for Iraq to handle its own security. I remember when Obama announced that all combat troops had left Iraq and the war was over. My convoy got hit by a 105 round used as an IED that night about a quarter mile from a IP station... That’s when I knew 100% we were really f*&king up by leaving.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Apr 15 at 2015 2:45 PM

SPC Angel Guma — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:45:07 -0400

Not really.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 15 at 2015 2:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:54:16 -0400

The onion has been peeled back in Iraq. It is rife with poor leadership, indifferent soldiers, corruption, creating fake accounts to siphon money to the military leaders, inability to coordinate and maintain vehicles and equipment. Giving them high tech weapons and vehicles and maintaining them is a foreign concept to them. This is just one of three parts of Clausewitz's Trinity. An M1 is not something you just jump in and drive away.

I think the British had it right, to fight insurgency fight like them and kill them. The challenge now is the insurgency has taken new objectives due it's size being comparable to a small army.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 15 at 2015 3:00 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:00:44 -0400

Corruption is at the core of these dictator states. They were just waiting until they had little supervision to go right back to the old ways of doing things. It is all they know. No more invasions/liberations/nation building missions unless there is resolve to stay just like the other countries we are still woring with. Japan, Germany, Korea, etc. 70 years later and we are STILL there. We have to put priority into fixing our own problems at home. Our infrastructure is in dire need of repair.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Apr 15 at 2015 3:19 PM

CPO Greg Frazho — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:19:25 -0400

Not terribly surprised. During my first pump in Iraq, 2005-06, pre-surge, it almost amused me how glowing if not giddy the reports were coming back saying, "The Iraqis are doing it! They're awesome!" I thought then as I do now that sentiment was, at best, a reach if not a delusion. It wasn't that good and anybody towing that company line by saying so was perpetuating the myth of Iraqi self-sufficiency.

Whether we left too soon is debatable. The fact that their lack-of-readiness is prevalent, isn't, not should it be much of a surprise to anyone. Under repressive regimes, which Saddam's was, you do whatever you're told and then hope like hell the consequences aren't visited on you and your family if you have the audacity to not do as you're told.

Taking the initiative and utilizing centralized planning and decentralized execution, unlike our military, was never encouraged, nor is it ever under totalitarian regimes. Essentially an entire country, also divided by religion and ethnic cleavages, grew up under the boot heal of being told what to do and do so without question. You can't undo that in a decade, although we tried valiantly. A helluva lotta hard work, ass-pain, misery and heartache was invested by the coalition in making them 'ready.'

Part of it, too, is cultural, the religious differences and paternalistic society notwithstanding. There are ages-old grudges between tribes, clans, ethnic sub-groups and even within families over things as basic as land, water, access to water and getting in on the oil trade. What our military tried to do was turn that mindset around. So did our State Department by trying to introduce the concept of federalism, with only mixed results at best, I'm sorry to say.

Until Iraq starts thinking of itself as Iraq and its citizens consistently thinking of themselves as Iraqis (and not Shia, Sunni and Kurd sub-groups), life in the fertile crescent will probably not be very pleasant. Not to mention the power vacuum its created in the Middle East and currently being exploited by the lunatic fringe.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Apr 15 at 2015 4:42 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:42:03 -0400

Considering how corrupt the Iraqi government was, not at all....

One thing to remember about Iraq: culture aside, there is not a large pool of candidates who have experience running a nation. Saddaam ensured that, as anyone was smart, ambitious and/or talented was a threat to him and his regime. So those folks either left or ended up in a shallow unmarked grave. It is going to take time to grow not only competent officers and NCOs, but competent civil servants as well.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 15 at 2015 5:16 PM

LTC John Shaw — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:16:21 -0400

The Iraqi and Afghan forces will not properly maintain any US equipment, it costs too much money and requires significant detail orientation and organizational discipline. Without US forces to assist and influence these countries will return to the 3rd world despots we temporarily displaced.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 15 at 2015 8:52 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 20:52:12 -0400

Iraqis are not Americans.

Iraqi Soldiers are not American Soldiers.

You can put lipstick and pearls on a pig....

This is not to say the Iraqis are bad people. They aren't. But they just don't have the same (for lack of better word) background we do.

Expecting them to go from where they were to where we are, was an unreasonable mission. When we "liberated them" we obligated ourselves to their protection for generations. Not years, not decades, but generations.

Edit: word

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 15 at 2015 9:28 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 21:28:44 -0400

Nope. Called it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 2:18 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 02:18:18 -0400

I was on an Iraqi National Police Transition Team in 2006 and saw first hand living with the Iraqis that the mission of training and advising them would take upwards of 20 years minimum. The Iraqi officers "buying" their commissions was going on back then. "Ghost" Soliders/Policemen on the payroll was SOP. Maintenance was only conducted after the truck/vehicle broke down.

Unlike Germany, Korea, and Japan I don't believe the Iraq/Afghanistan culture is capable of "righting" itself in a form of a stabilized civilization. I really don't believe any Islam culture is capable of doing it themselves. You could point to the U.A.E., Qatar, Saudi Arabia and say that those countries are doing well but, those countries are propelled by Third Country Nationals that are treated like slaves, there are more TCNs in those countries than indigenous people, plus they have an incredible amount of money.

We definitely left Iraq too early, we put too much blood, money, and resources into the country to not remain until the mission (whatever that was) was complete. I am currently in Afghanistan and although we are maintaining the troop numbers throughout the year, drawdown is still the main focus. We are making the same mistake here that we did in Iraq.

If we leave we need to just stay gone and not come back. If we are staying we need to stay and see it through, however long it takes.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 16 at 2015 2:25 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 02:25:39 -0400

"Did you have confidence in the long term prognosis when you left?"
No, not even a little bit.
This was after my commander handed back Sadr City to Iraqi officials
This was after my commander had both legs removed by an IED hours later
This was after we lost another fine leader on the way back from taking the commander to the level III
This was after we started down the road of "ask your Iraqi counterparts first before you...."
This was as I was leaving... for the second time from Iraq and no I had no delusions that it would end well. I do not know of any Soldier on the ground at my level that thought it would work out well.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 3:17 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:17:45 -0400

Not even a little bit sir. I left Iraq the day before they closed the last COB down. I thought we left too early then and I still think so now. For the amount of time, money, and lives we invested we sure seemed willing to wash our hands of the whole affair. I understand the economic concept of sunk resources, but Iraq was not ready to stand on it's own. Sometimes I wonder if that part of the world is capable of being ruled by anything other than a cruel dictatorship.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Apr 16 at 2015 3:43 AM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:43:13 -0400

I am not the least bit surprised. Upset, disappointed, and angry? Hell, yeah! But not surprised.

Response by LTC Lewis Cox made Apr 16 at 2015 5:34 AM

LTC Lewis Cox — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:34:58 -0400

No real difference in this war and MY WAR (Vietnam). Lost over 58,000 and never allowed to carry the war to Hanoi and definitely WIN!!!

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Apr 16 at 2015 7:31 AM

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 07:31:25 -0400

Not surprised at all

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 7:40 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 07:40:09 -0400

Kinda figured we would be back sooner or later

Response by SGT William Howell made Apr 16 at 2015 8:18 AM

SGT William Howell — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 08:18:45 -0400

I trained police officers in Iraq. They did not have a chance. Corruption was immediate from the head down. It was encouraged at all levels and we could do nothing to stop it. Why? Because we gave the country back so we were not seen as occupiers. I wonder what shape Germany and Japan would have been in if we turned the country over in less than a year without establishing a working economy?

We turned over the country too soon. We did nothing to establish an infrastructure so that people had jobs. Because of this they have supported any kind of change that will over throw the current mess that is the government.

Then there is the 3 distinct religions. I personally am surprised that Iraq has not split into 3 separate countries. Mark my words, it will happen soon enough.

Response by SFC Chris Sedlock made Apr 16 at 2015 8:19 AM

SFC Chris Sedlock — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 08:19:51 -0400

I called it in 07. 3-5 years after we leave, we'll be back

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Apr 16 at 2015 9:32 AM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:32:26 -0400

We have a page for those of us who fought together in Ramadi. This was posted and my heart sank. We are all ready to jump back in the fight, however a good friend and one of the few leaders I looked up to posted this:

Fuck the people over there. All that matters is that with our blood we fought for the lives of our own while they stood on that ground. With the efforts of those before us, then the Currahees and Marines, to the 1-9 Manchus who fought the good fight in Ramadi, there was Victory. The Victory had everything to do with the transformation of Ramadi that ultimately led to a few years of Troops not being wounded or killed in Ramadi. That is a noble cause, and well worth it in my mind. Any 100 of us would fight to the death for the sake of one single American life. And we would not feel sorry for ourselves doing so. We are still fighting in Ramadi in our minds and hearts, and are still losing men to that fucking place. We have plenty of fight in front of us right here, keeping our Brothers alive and saving them from themselves. We don't need to return to Iraq to be fighting in Ramadi...

For some of us the physical fight is over. He reminded me that what we did meant something regardless of what's happening now but if given the chance ... yes I would go back.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/middleeast/iraq-isis/index.html

Ramadi could fall to ISIS offensive, Iraq official says - CNN.com

The key Iraqi city of Ramadi could fall within hours to ISIS militants who have been gaining ground in recent days, a local official said Wednesday.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 16 at 2015 4:41 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:41:19 -0400

Damn Sir, looking at that "stay back 100 Meters" sign took straight back to Iraq! Many days spent in Iraq and most were not good COL Charles Williams!

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Apr 16 at 2015 5:02 PM

SSG Thomas Brousseau — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:02:38 -0400

First of all, I like that picture, I was at the Cross Sabres in 03. I believe that if we would have left 3 BCTs in Iraq that we could have stopped Isis dead in their tracks. General Norman Schwarzkopf wisely wrote about the tactical and logistical advantages of "pre staging" and maintaining a substantial footprint. There is no excuse for not achieving a satisfactory SOFA Agreement with the leadership of Iraq considering the tremendous nogatiating leverage we have in the way of hundreds of millions of US tax payer dollars and military equipment supplied to the Ireqi government. Iraq turned into a complete political failure.

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Apr 16 at 2015 9:12 PM

SSG Thomas Brousseau — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:12:29 -0400

You know if you have been to Cross Sabres in Baghdad you are definitely part of a good chapter in US Army History.

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Apr 17 at 2015 12:32 PM

TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:32:08 -0400

We do not have any business with boots on ground there, congress has not declared war!