Are you a liar and would you defend it? Who's pants are on fire?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 01:04:17 -0500

In light of the discussion about officers lying and being willing to defend it; what are your thoughts?
This thread is meant to survey to the RallyPoint community.

White lies are still lies, they should never replace tact and constructive criticism but that is another discussion.

Omission is not lying if you are not supposed to talk about it.
Yes no body is completely free from lying but lying as part of you military profession is something different.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 20 at 2015 1:08 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 01:08:35 -0500

Are we also including lying by omission?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 20 at 2015 10:58 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 10:58:07 -0500

Lying is an essential part of the human experience. Even infants practive dishonesty and deceit before they can talk. If total honesty were introduced into the system, the whole thing would collapse. Our day to day interactions are filled with teeny tiny white lies, or "sparing people's feelings" or telling people what you feel they want to hear.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Feb 20 at 2015 11:14 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:14:52 -0500

Rule 1. Everybody lies.
Rule 2. This includes Rule 1.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 11:17 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:17:47 -0500

We need to look at the driving force brought out in this piece, not the FACT that information is semi-factual at times. The overwhelming amount of tracking, checking, taskings, inspections and programs in place in the Army is common knowledge at the tactical level. When I was a Troop Commander, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. We have instituted so many mandatory training requirements on top of METL focused training requirements on top of inspections and taskings that it is impossible to get them all done to teh standard they are written to. So...you chose which ones you are going to do. The right way from that point on is to tell your higher command that you aren't going to get to the other ones. We do this. Sometimes, the higher command comes back and provides priorities in order to focus you from that point. If they don't, then they leave it up to their subordinates to determine the priorities, which is fine by me. If the staff work isn't done at the highest levels to determine the amount of time it takes to accomplish the tasks in the Annual Training Guidance and all of the FRAGOs that follow, they have failed, and that is what this article is about. If you leave it up to me at the Squadron level, I will decide what I am not going to do. I will tell you about it, and I'm not going to lie about what I am not going to do, but it is often referred to as "selective disobedience." Rarely do we report we are 100% on anything because it's simply not possible. Any command that requires a 100% completion on something has a commander that doesn't understand where he came from. I PCS or ETS 30 Soldiers a month. I generally get the same amount of new Soldiers. If we have SHARP training that month, my numbers are NEVER going to get to 100%. I might be that guy who reports the real numbers and gets screwed by the guys that lie about it. Better that, and give my higher commanders the right picture than tell them a lie and make them think we are better than we are. Maintenance is the same way. Our goal is 90%, but if we aren't there, I'll explain why because it's usually a money or a system problem. If I tell them we are at 85% and that we are experiencing a parts delay, a Division Commander can fix it. He makes 90% a goal in order to let him know when he needs to get personally involved. If you lie about it, his CCIR is now irrelevant because you want to look good instead of doing your FU(&ing job. Truth. Right now. With background information. Someday it might get me fired. Until then, it's the only way the Army will work correctly.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 12:28 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:28:31 -0500

Sometimes you gotta lie, based on what you know but cannot share. It's often lying by omission, as SSG Robert Burns posted, but not always.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 12:40 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:40:28 -0500

I can't say never lied period but I never knowingly lied when I wasn't ordered too.

Here is me being very honest.

As a young child, I hung out with thieves and became very good at it and part of that required me to lie. But then I got caught and burned really bad. I saw certain forms of stealing as victimless but I had lied so much, I lied to myself. I had a realization and when I realized thieves steal from each other and honor among thieves is not honor. I was very young and I changed. I do not like thieves and I was criminal and changing my disposition toward crime made me a target. I began to defend others and I hated bullies. When others have trouble telling the truth, I enjoy telling it. Stealing is wrong but stealing from a buddy means the problem has become pathological.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 12:42 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:42:19 -0500

I think the main issue is discretion and consequences. If a lie is harmful in any way, it should not be told. By nature, I tend to be brutally honest, yet I'm also the queen of sugar coating. To me, lies are frustrating, as I tend to over analyze. Most others are not affected the same way. I feel betrayed if lied to, yet others can just brush it off.
There is a lot of thought that goes into lying, so therefore one has to be very careful. There are times it's appropriate, especially if it is done to protect or prevent panic, but it is usually better to just be honest.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 1:26 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:26:56 -0500

"I can neither confirm or deny that *fill in the blank* did or did not occur. Thank you. Any further questions?" My response to anything I don't want to answer. Honesty or the closest we can come to it is my best policy. I have learned a long time ago that the truth will eventually always come out, better to be on the right side of things.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Feb 20 at 2015 2:18 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:18:56 -0500

It is sad when our leaders have to lie to meet standards. I don't think this is acceptable, but at the same time we've created this type of environment; where it is unacceptable to fail, even when it’s no fault of your own. When one leader lies to meet standards, the other leader knows he’ll have to explain why it was not possible (essentially throwing the other leader under the bus), accept the failure and the fallout (career impacts?), or lie.
There's often too much to accomplish and not enough time. Leaders need to lay out the requirements and the time standards, present it to the chain of command and ask what should be cut to meet the requirements and time limitations. If the chain of command doesn't budge on the requirements, then I would inform them that the time to complete the requirements would have adverse effects on unit morale. We are soldiers, our lives are not our own. Convenience is not something we should expect.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 2:30 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:30:22 -0500

Anyone who believes officers don't lie has never heard some of the elephants told in Division maintenance meetings.