Are you a letter of the law or a spirit of the law person?

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:40:38 -0500

You know the deal ... PFC Smith shows up late for formation. She says her car broke down shortly after she left home. She had to call her husband to pick her up and drive her to work, which caused her to be late late to formation.

What do you do? Do you counsel Smith and possibly punish her because she was late? (Letter of the law says that she was late, and that MUST be addressed.)

Or do you caution her and just let it go because this could happen to anyone. (Spirit of the law says it could happen to anyone and she was "only" late; no harm done.)

Here's a whole academic paper on the difference between letter and spirit of the law. How do you feel about this issue? Vote below!

https://www.lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/orgstudies/Home/Current%20Students/OS%20Honors/Past%20OS%20Honors%20Theses/Matt%20Gordon_Honors%20Thesis.pdf

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 6:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:38:42 -0500

Graet question

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 6:39 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:39:38 -0500

no one is perfect if it happens once in a blue moon so be it

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 8 at 2015 6:42 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:42:32 -0500

Leaders exist to choose when to break the rules. If we always followed the rules, we wouldn't need leaders.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 8 at 2015 7:08 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:08:27 -0500

It is completely dependent on the situation at hand. We all try to abide by the "letter of the law", but we understand that often it is the "spirit of the law" that is important. This is why there are such things as mitigating circumstances in the sentencing guidelines.

Using the late example. If it is someone that is habitually yet. Letter of the law.

Someone new to Barksdale and isn't familiar with the train that tends to roll through right at the gate first thing in the morning when everyone is trying to get on the base and backs traffic up for up to 2 miles? Spirit of the law.

Someone that got up late/flat tire/kid threw up on their uniform/etc and called on the way in before they were suppose to be there. Spirit of the law, if it happens more than on a rare occasion, move to spirit of the law.

I cannot speak intelligently on the other services views on this, but the Air Force has a concept of "progressive disciple" with the lightest step being "a talking to" or more formally a verbal warning, moving up to Memo for Record of a verbal warning, a Letter of Counseling, a Letter of Admonishment, Letter of Reprimand and finally Art15 and/or Court Martial.

We are afforded all of these options and can start effectively at any one of them. Yet the best way to handle it is choosing the appropriate lowest level of disciple to correct the behavior or action.

Good troops generally only need a verbal warning for the minor violations.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 7:25 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:25:23 -0500

It would depend on prior occurrences. If the said individual has a good track record of being on time then I would make a mental note if it was the first occurrence. Even if it wasn't the car breaking down sometimes sht happens. If it becomes a pattern then at some point you would bring the person aside and find out what is going on and do counseling as necessary.

In your scenario the car break down would be legitimate. If I had trust in the person I would not question their integrity. If not I might investigate to see if they are just refusing to fess up. In most cases even if they were late because they over slept I would not find fault on a one time occurrence. Many of us have had the "oh Sht" moment when we realize we set the alarm to the PM, or just forgot to turn it on all together. It is an uncomfortable feeling when you are going to be late for something. Most people generally pay more attention to prevent it from future occurrences.

That is where judgment comes in. Judgment is a trait of leadership. Not every situation is black and white. Sometimes the lines are skewed and as long as the intent is made and there is no life consequences is what counts.

Response by Sgt Jason West made Jan 8 at 2015 7:29 PM

Sgt Jason West — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:29:51 -0500

I say other. She called her husband? Did she call her NCOs/SNCOs and let them know? If not, then that's strike 2 (being late the 1st). If she did, then if it was a first time thing then I see no problem. If it has happened before with any excuse, not just the car then it would need to go further. Best to correct the situation in a positive manner and ensure it doesn't happen again instead of throwing the book at a person for every little offense and demolishing any espirit de corps and motivation they have left.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 8:01 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 20:01:39 -0500

Generally speaking, I reserve the right to make a judgement call in each case. If PFC Smith is full of crap, I will likely detect it. If she is an exceptional thespian, I will definitely notice a pattern.

My modus operadi is that I want to exercise the minimum force necessary in order to correct a problem. If I have to go to sterner measures, I will. Point is to get the Soldier back on point and off the radar.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 8:07 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 20:07:32 -0500

Accidents happen. However, if tardiness become a habit...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 8:19 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 20:19:02 -0500

Very interesting question with limited data to go on. However, here are my two cents.

First time do your job as a leader and counsel the SM on the importance of notifying first line supervisor right away. Inform the SM about the importance of accountability and updating first line supervisor on SM whereabout.

Second time counsel the SM and conduct corrective training.

Third time counsel the SM and recommend for UCMJ action.

This method has worked very well and I found it to be very effective over the last 11 years.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 8 at 2015 8:32 PM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 20:32:12 -0500

It really all depends. As a NCO, especially when I was a Cpl, I was responsible for at least 4 junior Marines something more. For the most part my Marines only needed that verbal counseling and there were no other problems. But, I did have that one Marine, as does any other NCO, that it seemed just had to push those buttons. Infortunately after doing the required written counselings, and two 6105 counselings (which should've led to a dishonorable discharge) my coins failed me and this LCpl not only got out honorably but as a Cpl instead of a PFC. So counselings and administrative action only work of your command is behind you 100%.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Jan 8 at 2015 9:04 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:04:03 -0500

There are always extenuating circumstances, and abuses, both need to be weighed out when deciding punishment

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jan 8 at 2015 9:13 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:13:08 -0500

She should at least get verbal counseling, regardless of how many times this has happened. You set a bad precedent as a leader if you just brush it off. Verbal counseling doesn't have to hurt the SM's career in any way but it should be done at a minimum.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 8 at 2015 9:28 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:28:11 -0500

"Are you a letter of the law or a spirit of the law person?"
Yes
Only a fool works in absolutes.. context, situation and individual all have to be considered.

And just because the letter of the law states the Soldier is late and it needs to be addressed ... How it is addressed is an individual response based on the things I mentioned above.

For some it will be a look......perhaps a look of disappointment, and that is all that is needed, for another it may be a counseling session in positive light, another may need a negative performance counseling, or another all the way to UCMJ.

Response by SPC John Decker made Jan 8 at 2015 9:44 PM

SPC John Decker — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:44:06 -0500

My only question would have been: why did she not call squad leaded or above after she called her husband? I have, several times as a civilian, had to get a ride from a friend and been late for work. I always called the boss to let him know.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 4:48 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 04:48:23 -0500

Depends on the circumstances. Was this a normal occurrence or an isolated event. So the circumstances would dictate the course of action. So in my opinion roll with spirt of the law.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 5:54 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 05:54:25 -0500

I tend towards letter of the law by my nature. I prefer absolutes and to be able to point at a higher authority to justify things since it makes it easier.

But I have learned, as I have grown older and matured, that there are always exceptions and to always get the full story lest you become the villain. Towards that end I am a fan of talking to the involved party to get the full story and then exercising the "trust but verify" method.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Jan 9 at 2015 8:27 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 08:27:13 -0500

Spirit of the Law. Every situation and individual are different and should be treated as such.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 9 at 2015 2:20 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 14:20:12 -0500

This one is easy for me. I'm a legal scholar with a Juris Doctor. Inasmuch as I never practiced law, my view of it hasn't been jaundiced and I still have great respect for it. Sadly, lawyers, it seems, lose that respect when they become overly familiar with its practice.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Jan 9 at 2015 3:38 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 15:38:03 -0500

I dealt with each and every single situation I was ever confronted with on a individual basis, I never forgot that the mission comes 1st, but also never forgot that respect is a two way street either ( something many NCO's have forgotten). It always depended on the soldier and how they presented themselves, their attitude and their devotion to duty. If you came at me with an attitude running your mouth all the time, you need not look for the same response I gave to another soldier who may have messed up but showed a better attitude and contributed to daily activities with positive motivation. Did I hold grudges???no I did not,all soldiers were given the SAME choices and made their own decisions, I was not a scout master nor a baby setter. I was far from perfect, but at the end of the day I had more respect from my soldiers than other NCO's did, to me, thats the key to proper learning techniques. Soldiers always seem to retain more when they are in an environment they can trust, knowing your NCO's have your back when your right or a mistake has occurred is paramount.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 9 at 2015 8:32 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:32:18 -0500

I take every issue on a case by case basis taking the individual and the organization and climate into consideration.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 8:35 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:35:38 -0500

The young Soldier being late once is not my issue, not necessary for me to counsel or even put on my radar as her 1SG. She has multiple layers of leaders who will find out what happened and let me know if I need to get involved! If I see the young Soldier while I am out and about during the day, I may mention, " I hear you were late today, is everything OK?" My concern is more for the reason and circumstances that caused her to be late....which I may become involved in...to assist .....if necessary! If not, Ok, thank you! Have a great day! I want the Soldier to understand that my concern is one of welfare, not an accusation of any potential wrong doing or half stepping! If there is any, it will come out soon enough!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 9:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 21:00:26 -0500

Yes.

Response by TSgt Jackie Jones made Jan 9 at 2015 10:25 PM

TSgt Jackie Jones — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 22:25:22 -0500

There is always the "gray" area. Intelligent and seasoned leaders would make a decision based on the whole person concept.

Response by CPT Andrew Kletzing made Jan 10 at 2015 10:19 PM

CPT Andrew Kletzing — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:19:54 -0500

I always liked this quote from Coach K on leadership which would be appropriate in this case: “Too many rules get in the way of leadership. They just put you in a box . . . . People set rules to keep from making decisions.” Choosing to always adhere to the letter of the law is a way for leaders to avoid having to make tough decisions.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 10:36 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:36:24 -0500

For me, more important than the law or rule would be the nature of intent.

There's a difference between intentionally doing something wrong, and a mistake.

Being late once is a mistake. Habitually being late is intentionally not trying to mitigate a problem.

Response by SGT James LeFebvre made Jan 11 at 2015 12:32 AM

SGT James LeFebvre — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 00:32:31 -0500

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member It would depend on if my BS meter got flagged. If there is no pattern of lateness and it's a one time thing (especially if contacted right away rather than trying to figure out where the Soldier is) I would probably just caution them to not be late again. If there was a previous pattern of lateness, then no, definitely a written counseling and corrective training.

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Jan 11 at 2015 12:38 PM

SSG Eddye Royal — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:38:47 -0500

I was also a Training NCO, and became the right man, for the 1ST, and Commander, so I had to keep the ethics, and set the example for the other troops. Is this a first time or not, for example does not go into that, but I am going to assume the problem is more than you your saying.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2015 5:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 17:50:29 -0500

Depends if it is first offense, I would caution... If a repeat offender , paperwork... I use the 3 strikes you are out... First time offense you get a stern talking to, second offense some form of extra duty and a verbal... Third time you get formal paperwork... Of course this also depends on the offense... Sometimes I have to skip steps one and two....

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2015 5:58 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 17:58:52 -0500

We have all been there. Things happen, the stars align and *BAM* you're f'ed. I feel the best approach is a combination of the two, and the right to utilize common sense. If you know it is a BS response then call them on it. We are all adults. Something I have learned along the way is to own up to your shortcomings, just be willing to stand by for the consequences. Honesty is the best policy. Sometimes it sucks but overall standards should be met.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 7 at 2015 7:16 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 19:16:33 -0500

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member When I went to Cpl's Course LONG AGO, this is actually one of the first lessons.

When having a formation, and you are missing a Marine, you report you are missing a Marine, and that trying to ascertain what is going on. Why? Because you are worried about the safety and well-being of your Marines. As you should be.

On the flip side, as a Marine, if you are going to be late, it is your responsibility to "attempt" contact as soon as you realize you are going to be late. This isn't always feasible, however, when it is, you should try. There were times where I called at 6:15 in the morning because I realized I "might" be late for a 7:30 arrival time.

So in the example above, I would at the very minimum provide an informal (verbal) counselling to the soldier to investigate what was going on.

1) The soldier was able to contact their spouse but not the command

2) Did leadership (including myself) make our numbers available to them in case of emergency? Was the DNCO number available to relay a message if needed? Was this a failure on my part?

3) Is this a repeat incident? More than one Unauthorized Absence (Late)? More than one car breakdown?

4) Has this behavior been documented previously? Was their an action plan in place about 'similar' behavior?

5) What is the "Letter of the Law" in regards to this? By Addressing this in an "Informal" (Verbal) Counselling do I meet the requirements? Or does it need to be more formalized? (p11 entry) Sometimes the Spirit & Letter are not incompatible.

All that said, as a NCO, I Enforce Policy (and Regulations). My ability to "interpret" them is very narrow. If the Regulation says Shall or Must, I Shall & Must. However, if in doubt, I can always escalate the question up the chain and get feedback from more seasoned leadership. Their interpretation, and knowledge may be far more in depth than mine if I think there is a true conflict with the Spirit of the Law (which is always the goal).

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 8 at 2015 2:19 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 14:19:47 -0500

In the scenario stated I would talk it over with PFC Smith. If this was the first time she gets a pass. If this is routine or habitual then it is time to put on paper and begin file working to UCMJ.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2015 7:32 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:32:49 -0500

There is a time and place for everything. A true leader will know when to apply each in the best interest of the service and the individual.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 8:37 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:37:16 -0400

I have thought about this subject many times. I definitely lean towards the spirit of the law. I'm reminded of a story out of the scripture, where Jesus' disciples get hungry on a Saturday and eat a little grain out of a field. The Pharisees get angry with Jesus and take him to task for it. His answer? "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." I feel much the same way about regulation. Regulation was made for the soldier, not the solder for the regulation.

While at WLC a block of instruction was set aside for instruction and discussion on this topic, of course without the scripture reference, but I think that was one of the most informative and beneficial things I learned at WLC.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Apr 9 at 2015 8:44 AM

TSgt David Holman — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:44:07 -0400

It depends on which "law" you are talking about. If I have a stellar troop who is on point with everything that sleeps through their alarm once, and is 15 min late... probably wouldn't even mention it. If I have a marginal troop that is seriously doing their best, but was a little late due to something like this, and it was a one time offense, I would probably talk to them, investigate it, and proceed accordingly. If they were a dirtbag, I would probably have an LOC/LOR already written just waiting to give it to them when they walked through the door.

It all depends on trends, and what the offense is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 8:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:47:18 -0400

Letter of the law because the the text also gives discretion to commanders. I'm not going to hang someone put to dry because life happened.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 9 at 2015 8:52 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:52:43 -0400

Most people untrained in the law fall into this argument trap.

The "sprint" and the "letter" of the law are quite meaningless considering the it is the "interpretation" of the law is that matters.

A perfect example is the 2nd Amendment.