Are we really losing touch with tradition?

2015-10-01T21:55:04-04:00

Why do most Soldiers, hell most NCOs for that matter, just not take pride in their dress uniforms anymore. I was helping a SPC female square her uniform away when I asked her a measurement question. When she answered incorrectly, I corrected her. She then stated "that's not what they taught us in basic. They told us to use a quarter..." That's when I cut her off. Nowhere in AR 670-1 does it state, "a quarters length from this or a quarters width from that." FML!!! I have a feeling that not caring is starting to be instilled in these troops at basic and AIT. ASUs tossed in the closet, off hanger, just WTF! I'm at a loss!

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 1 at 2015 9:59 PM

2015-10-01T21:59:14-04:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member Imagine my surprise that they evidently don't teach sister service's ranks these days, in boot. My son's Army buddy didn't know that a Naval Captain outranked an Army one. He was literally arguing the point.

So yeah, Chief. I think a lot is being lost these days.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-10-01T22:16:08-04:00

WO1 Ryan Sweesy, There was a time when even a seasoned veteran would not get an official photo without a busy check. Recently I saw a newly assigned senior officers photo and was as if they pulled the ribbons out of and old box and just stuck them on. In addition they didn't even do they're homework in order to ensure they had the unit citation on their uniform. It usually takes me approximately four hours to put my uniform together for a photo, but I was in "The Old Gaurd" so I guess I just have OCD.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 2 at 2015 6:41 AM

2015-10-02T06:41:00-04:00

Measurements aren't tradition. They're regulation. Huge difference.

Every year or so an updated uniform reg comes out for all the services (even the Marines). And knowing where to find the information is far more important than knowing the information, because it changes so often. Especially if you are not using it constantly. You can only store so much data.

Tradition is absolutely important to know. Knowing historical figures. Knowing philosophy of the service. Knowing why we do things the way we do. That's important. Knowing the exact distance between X & Y. It's minutia, and it's subject to change, unlike tradition, which is static.

I understand where you are going CW2 Private RallyPoint Member. It's an ATTITUDE issue. It's as though she didn't care, but I think we are conflating terms, which changes the way we look at this problem.

Response by SGT William Howell made Oct 2 at 2015 9:00 AM

2015-10-02T09:00:52-04:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member Chief, It has been a LOOOOOOOG time since I was in boot camp, but I don't remember there being a bunch of rulers laying around. We all used things that the DS said use to get close. Wither it was change or a mark on our notebook it was what we had. It is field expedient. When in Iraq I always used string when map reading for distance. No where in the FM 3-25.26 does it say to use string, but it works.

Not sure where the tradition is that you speak of. Uniform regs are not tradition. We don't even have a piece of kit that is more than 15 years old now. The 670-1 changes faster than the soldiers and leaders can keep up with. We have had 6 combat uniforms in the last 10 years there is no tradition in that.

I do agree that soldiers going through BCT in the last ten years lack the discipline of those that came before had. That is the Army's fault. They let just about everybody through and lowered the standards to make sure that happened. They needed bodies and bodies is what they got. They are saying that as of OCT 1st that is going to be fixed. I am in the wait and see phase.

Take your young SPC and mentor her. Show her the right way. Get her ready to be an NCO. I was lucky to have a mentor that made me a better soldier. 1SG Private RallyPoint Member. I was only 3 months away from OCS when an IED ended my carreer. This young soldier may end up being a CSM one day and she may have you to thank for it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-10-02T09:20:41-04:00

thanks chief for generalizing about most Soldiers and NCO's, I can do that too since most Warrant Officers do not wear the uniform properly or even have a haircut. In my previous position we had plenty of ASU/Class A Inspection and all of my Soldiers cared about their uniforms.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Oct 2 at 2015 9:29 AM

2015-10-02T09:29:22-04:00

1. Where was her NCO? This is the beginning and end of the problem. Is this her first uniform inspection?
2. I know of the short cuts she's mentioning, but they're just that "short cuts". When I got to my first unit, we still used them but knew what 670-1 was and what it said to do. Hell we even had those little books with the built in rulers to help us out.
3. Again Sir, where are your NCO's if you're the one doing these inspections?

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Oct 2 at 2015 9:31 AM

2015-10-02T09:31:34-04:00

I don't think its that this soldier doesn't care. I think its just what she was taught. DS only have a small window of time to get their job done. A quarter probably isn't the best answer but it is the proper one. Ever soldier can carry a quarter and help square their battle buddies away but a ruler isn't exactly field expedient.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Oct 2 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-10-02T10:33:12-04:00

Shit Chief I was taught the same thing. 670-1 says an inch. A quarter is an inch. She just didn't explain it.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Oct 2 at 2015 12:18 PM

2015-10-02T12:18:04-04:00

A quarter is .0955" across. If you don't have a ruler, can you tell anyone a better field expedient way to make that measurement? Can you?!?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-10-02T15:48:12-04:00

Meh. We're in a transition period as much as I hate to say. All we've worried about over the last 10+ yrs is deployments/reset/train up for deployment/deployment.

Getting back to the basics is going to be a process. IMO we've started that process. It won't happen overnight, but we'll get there.

Example. We are getting for a Dining out in Dec. ASU is the uniform. I started this month looking at and TEACHING my Soldiers what right looks like. There's my baseline. Now in a couple of weeks after some sound mentoring (showing them what right looks like AND providing them the proper regulation) I'll ratchet it up more. I did have one Soldier that pulled out a quarter. I told him to give it to me, I put it in my office and told him he'll get it back when he can tall me what the proper dimensions etc and where in the reg it shows said dimensions etc.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-10-02T16:18:50-04:00

My first unit was a line unit. I wasn't expected to know every regulation and I wasn't expected to know every detail of how to put my ASU's together. I had a senior SPC and my NCO teaching me every step of the way until I was able to do the task myself. If I had a question, I was provided the AR to look the answer up myself. Before we were dismissed for the end of the day, we had to answer at least one board question correctly. We were expected to learn board questions if there was no other task during the duty hours. Customs and Courtesies were reviewed and hammered into our heads until we felt pride knowing our ACU's were worn correctly and our Salute's sharp. The point I am trying to make is this. No matter your rank, if you see a Soldier doing something wrong, correct them and ensure they know the right answer. Soldiers are grown and molded from the day they put a toe in their boot. I would not be how I am today without my team making me the Soldier I am today. Pride comes from Motivation and Self Discipline.

Never stop fighting for your soldiers. Never stop teaching your soldiers, even if they are no longer in your squad.--SFC White.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Oct 2 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-10-02T16:23:53-04:00

I know that seems like something slipping, but I was taught the quarter trick in 1994.

Response by SFC Jason Porter made Oct 2 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-10-02T20:16:04-04:00

The quarter deal was around 23 yrs ago when I first came in. It isn't anything new. I always used a ruler

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 8:55 PM

2015-10-02T20:55:48-04:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member is it tradition or enforcement of the regulations or both that is slipping?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 10:50 PM

2015-10-02T22:50:04-04:00

Sir,
Coming from an ex-drill sergeant. I will suggest to you, that in most cases the drill sergeants have roughly 250 Civilians each cycle. I was on the trail for 2 years during that time, we had at the most 8 drill Sergeants to train 250 Civilians into becoming Soldiers. Each cycle only last 9 1/2 weeks. So we don't have alot of time to teach them what regs are. Yes of course we mention regs to the Soldiers, but during BASIC training they have no idea what a reg is, no matter how much, we try to explain it to them. So the Soldiers coming to you, will have to be trained on the regs, and also told what reg covers what. Basic training is just that, the BASICS. We teach them how to march, shoot, combatives, SHARP, EO, custom and courtesies just to name a few. Once they get to the Unit, that's when their First line supervisor should be training them on everything else Army, while also reinforcing what they learned in basic. Sir, as you know, we never stop learning in the Army. So we as leaders, need to ensure the we are teaching not only incoming Soldiers, but the junior Officers as well on everything we know about the Army. I think it is every Soldier's duty to teach, train, and mentor every Soldier, whether its on something referring the the fixing of a uniform, or how to correctly perform a PMCS of a piece of equipment. I think it should everyone's responsibility to train Soldiers on every aspect of the Army.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Oct 3 at 2015 12:29 AM

2015-10-03T00:29:06-04:00

The Army doesn't have tradition. They run from it.

Walt

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2015 12:57 AM

2015-10-03T00:57:32-04:00

In a simple word, yes.
I strongly believe we are losing touch with the traditions that made the armed forces that we have today, and the traditions that keep pride alive. From the simplest thing why the uniform is the way it is, or saluting the flag, some Soldiers just don't care or worst...don't have a clue. I don't know if its the new lifestyle, generation, or what but for some reason the Army is being strongly affected by this and it doesn't seem to be knowing or doing anything about it. The Marines on the other hand, everyone may joke about them in a way or the other, but one thing I think we can all agree is that a Marine knows history about his branch, and is damn proud of everything that makes him a part of it. This is one thing that I greatly admire from them and I wish we could emulate in our branch of service.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Oct 3 at 2015 2:13 AM

2015-10-03T02:13:38-04:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member A U S quarter coin is .955 inches in diameter. A U S Dime is .755 inches in diameter, a bit large for placing a shoulder sleeve insignia, but it works well as a no-go gage!

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made Oct 3 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-10-03T10:53:18-04:00

Perhaps they need to use these items: http://gipubs.com/?s=uniform
Sorry! could not resist. Consider it an opportunity to educate. There is nothing wrong with a little positive corrective training/education. Have them show the where the AR/DA PAM states use a quarter or have them look up the correct measurements. As leaders we need to teach our subordinates how to think not what to think. Just my 2 cents.

GIPubs | Search Results | uniform

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 2:21 AM

2015-10-04T02:21:15-04:00

I am trying to understand how this whole thing started. A quarter is .955 inches in diameter. That is 1.14 mm less then a standard inch and within the amount of error you would find using the width of ruler markings. If the SPC used a quarter instead of measuring with a ruler, I very highly doubt that most people would be able to eyeball that difference.

Was the problem that she did not know the measurement when asked, or that her discs were off?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 7:27 PM

2015-10-04T19:27:11-04:00

Out here in recruiting we wear our ASU on a regular basis, especially for school visits. So, most of the time I take my jacket off once i'm in the classroom. Our shirts have to mirror our jackets out here. Even though I know the measurements for my badges and ribbons, I still use the little book with the ruler to double check myself.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 10:31 PM

2015-10-04T22:31:07-04:00

Inspect what you expect

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-10-05T08:53:35-04:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member she didn't lie to you Sir, that's exactly what I was told in BCT and AIT. Use a quarter pretty much for everything. When I got here to my 1st Unit Station was when I learned to actually fix my ASU's.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2015 4:35 PM

2015-10-12T16:35:43-04:00

We have the issue now what is the solution?

Response by SPC Rob Miller made Oct 12 at 2015 5:25 PM

2015-10-12T17:25:16-04:00

Either correct and teach or bitch and moan. What kind of leader do you want to be?

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Oct 12 at 2015 5:36 PM

2015-10-12T17:36:50-04:00

In some ways, the Army has lost touch with traditions. We no longer wear full color shoulder sleeve insignia on a uniform. We wear a metal badge of one if we deployed but otherwise, it is a green and black patch. Regiments used to mean something but now we belong to a Brigade Combat Team that may or may not be based on a former Regiment. We have gone through so many uniform changes over the last three decades. Some of it is a lack of pride in the uniform. You could see that in the wear of the black beret where even years after it was introduced, many Soldiers, even senior officers did not take the time to shape it and wear it correctly. When I was an ROTC cadet, I looked forward to wearing my Class A uniform around campus on our leadership lab day. Now, cadets in my program wear it to the ROTC class but take it off immediately afterwards. I do think some of this is the Army's fault for not instilling pride in our Soldiers. Over the last 14 years, we have been so focused on war fighting that we wore ACUs every day, even in environments where other services wore the equivalent of Class B's. It is something that can only be fixed by leaders at all levels from Squad up.

Response by 1SG Jack Crutcher made Oct 12 at 2015 8:26 PM

2015-10-12T20:26:04-04:00

I too was a drill sergeant, we had more quarters to give to the new incoming soldiers than we had rulers and ar 670-1 to give them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-10-12T20:31:42-04:00

That is what you get when you have degradation of NCOs over time. The war took it's toll on the institutional knowledge of the Army.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-10-12T22:46:06-04:00

This is NCO business, period!
By definition, the NCO is the enforcer and trainer of soldiering skills to include military traditions which continues way after the initial Basic Combat Training and throughout the soldiers military career.
A weak NCO yields weak and undisciplined soldiers and nowhere is this more apparent than in the first weeks after deploying to a combat zone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2015 5:50 AM

2015-10-13T05:50:25-04:00

I don't think one SPC female represent most Soldiers or NCOs. Most take pride in their dress uniform. I was taught to use a quarter.

Was is wrinkled? Is that how you know it was in a closet? Most of the troops I've inspected have all their uniforms hanging.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2015 9:12 AM

2015-10-13T09:12:43-04:00

Coaching and mentoring is the responsibility of the subordinate's superior, usually an NCO. A junior Soldier is a by-product of their leaders. As for the quarter, that is a commonly used rule of thumb for the placement of the branch affiliation and U.S. collar insignia, since a quarter measures one inch. Female uniforms however don't use the one inch standard from the edge of the collar seam, they use a 5/8 of an inch standard since the collars on Female jackets are not as long as a Male ASU collar.

As for the lack of traditions, the Army is losing its traditions because our civilian leadership is imposing immoral and non standard allowances (transgender/openly gay) into the force. Traditionally, the force was conservative and values based (not just the Army Values either). I have no problem with closet gays/trans-genders serving as long as they keep their preference to themselves (the whole point for DADT). Now that you have open expressions of immorality and in some cases disregard for authority (because individuals who relate to this morality have a flawed sense of discipline) inevitably leads to the current state of affairs. Bottom line our Army and our Military as a whole was hijacked for the self serving political agenda of an extreme minority of our great nation's population. As a Senior NCO, I courageously make this declaration because that is what NCO's do: enforce standards. I'll leave the politics to the officers and get back to training and mentoring junior leaders/soldiers, because that is the core mission of an NCO: make it happen.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2015 2:42 PM

2015-10-13T14:42:09-04:00

Sir, how many rulers are there in basic?... Hell getting the quarter was tough enough. And my unit didn't correct me they just looked at me and said you gotta smart phone? Look up the AR and then fix it... Now I am that guy that AR 670-1 PDF on his phone

Response by SrA Braxton Craft Jr made Oct 13 at 2015 7:48 PM

2015-10-13T19:48:28-04:00

USAF 35-10 describes in detail personal dress and hygiene. While I was in BMT at Lackland AFB many years ago, everyone in our flight used a ruler for his bunk area, and his buddies bunk area. we called it ICYA UCMA. Nearly 40 years later I still check my gig line, wear two pairs of socks, Remove my hat inside, and remember the pride I felt when wearing my Uniform. I looked as sharp as a razor and shone like a diamond. Esprit De Corps is the heart of our creed. you have every right to correct such an erroneous blunders by others while wearing YOUR Uniform. I have met many Troops since my service of every branch. 99% are the kind of people that you can be proud of. Please don't let a few bad apples skew your perception of the young military. Thank you very much for your service. Salute, handshake, good direct eye contact.