Are we ready to move away from the Rank equals Responsibility mind set?

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:26:52 -0500

We speak about keeping the best talent, and pushing them to be as successful as possible, but we limit these capable people by associating Rank with Responsibility.

Before joining the Army, and ever knowing S.H.A.R.P existed had taken Sexual Assault and Harassment Prevention courses for a job as an Student Resident Adviser at the age of 19 in college. That year I was the primary case personnel for a rape case, I helped the victim from the time they knocked on my door until they were done in the hospital, before I had to relinquish my duties to a higher source. At 23 I join the Army and because of my rank it is believed I would not know how to compose myself if a situation were to arise.

I believe we could engage personnel and better help our peers to our left and right by utilizing the talents of everyone that they bring with them from the private sector.

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Revision #1:

I do not think I properly presented this topic. I will attempt here to clarify. The argument I was attempting to make is that we have a shortage of talents in areas like EO/SHARP/Master Fitness Instructor/Master Resilency Trainer/ ect. These positions and classes currently have ranks associated with them although myself and others might argue that JSMs are able to feel these positions. Like my prior experience shown above, might qualify me for a SHARP rep, someone with a degree or ceritification as a fitness trainer might qualify elswhere. Our junior ranks vary widely in age ranges and prior experiences, and I see this as wasted potential. I hope this helps to clarify things.

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Revision #2:

After some conversing with SFC Richie, I thought this a different option: "would you be more inclined to support a system in which a junior service members (JSM) was not in one of these roles fully, but formally trained and could service as an Assistant with a limited amount of authority granted? That way those with prior experience could continue to develop those skills, and help with their prior knowledge the NCOIC of that program."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 5:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:33:13 -0500

I think that's why we have a rank structure so how do we move away from it ?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 7:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:03:44 -0500

I agree with SGM. I can have all the experience and more as an E6, but I can never be the one to shoulder the responsibility of the BN CDR, thankfully. I think it all comes down to ULTIMATE responsibility. Although I think I understand what you're saying SPC Smith and please correct me if I am wrong-but you can have a SPC who is actually doing the work commensurate of an E7, yes? Now hopefully the CoC will see all the good work that SPC is doing and def put him on the proper tracks to become promoted ahead of his peers, and although when the BC comes down to the shop he may chew you up, but the ultimate person he/she's gonna be looking for is the NCOIC of that shop. Am I understanding correctly.

Now as far as "sitting on valuable resources", then I wonder who's doing that because every time there's a class to give, a question to be answered, and problems to be solved, for some reason my name is called, lol and its been that way since I was an E4 and NCOIC of my BAS. I think once a person becomes the GO TO resource in their AO, regardless of rank, they will never be under utilized.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 7:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:19:35 -0500

Great point SPC Smith, but I think this is the part where your knowledge should outshine as you're talking about your excellent skills. As a new E4 just coming to AD in 2006, my CDR was great and always talked to me and gave me great pointers. 8 months later when they needed an NCOIC at a BAS he pointed to me and said I had a good head on my shoulders and could handle it.

Your CoC should see you (if that's how you portray yourself) as a level headed, wealth of knowledge and if you think there's an area you can assist in, show and prove it.

Good luck!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 10:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:04:55 -0500

I also agree with the SGM. Position also holds responsibility. As a team leader, a SPC could hold that slot and he/she is responsible for the soldiers underneath them. That responsibility cannot be fully delegated - missions critical to the team effort can be but that team leader whether he/she is around or not is responsible.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 6:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 18:50:51 -0400

I understand and sympathize with your stance on this. I do feel that a lot of times we minimize responsibility for E4 and below when most individuals are capable of more power.

However, you individually are not the problem. Look across your peer group and ask yourself if they could competently fill the SHARP/EO or even retention NCO Role. I'll say probably the larger majority are incapable due to immaturity, reliability, experience and no command presence.

Furthermore, with the current drawdown, it is increasingly harder to fill the slots with the best NCOs. If we open those billets to all ranks, there is a possibility of leadership instructing "send SPC Schmuck to that class because he doesn't have any additional duties and cannot perform normal mission due to profile." This is a Scenario where Shmuck is a terd who is now counseling assault victims. And with your experience, you know how destructive that could be. I have seen this done before with NCOs and it wouldn't be any different if all ranks were included.

I am an advocate of chucking tons of responsibility to "Joe". But this must be done with prudence. If I was sexually assaulted as a SSG, I would absolutely not feel comfortable approaching an E4 Victim Advocate. I need someone with power, authority, experience, and the commanders ear.

My advice is keep doing great things, get promoted, and then help out in those special billets.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 10:02 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:02:14 -0400

SPC Smith, I understand your statements, theoretically we as senior NCOs are suppose to use our junior leaders to handle certain tasks that we feel they can handle. i came up through the ranks quick. I was able to make Sergeant when i was 20 yrs old. If you have good leadership and a great mentor, they will groom and shape you so that you will be able to perfrom at a higher level. Now, I see you keep refering to older individuals who are just coming in. Today's IET soldiers are no longer just 18-20 yrs old. As an Instructor in TRADOC I see alot of SMs coming in with prior life experience. If a unit receives one of these soldiers, then yes they should include them in certain discussions and pick their brain to see if they ever dealt with any of the situations. However, to flip that coin, just because someone may have life experience does not mean that they can handle the pressures of being a leader. If you are standing out above your peers, taking the initiative, volunteering for those "crap" jobs, and getting your name out there for positive reasons, you will be noticed and you will gain more responsibility. Your leaders will assess your potential and put you in positions they feel you can handle. The promotion system and the authority that comes with it is based on your overall potential to the next rank. If you can not handle the responsibility of the next rank, it will show at your current rank. You also wanted to know why a junior enlisted does not get the additional duties such as SHARP/EO and MFT. These jobs are set at a certain rank for the fact that you must prove that you are mature enough to handle the weight the responsibility. Be honest with me, how comfortable would you feel talking to a SPC as apposed to a SFC about certain person issues? To bring up my point, just because someone is mature enough to handle the position does not mean they posess the knowledge to perform the task.

I hope this helps you out. Good Luck to you.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 12:09 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2014 12:09:35 -0400

SPC Smith,

I believe the point you are trying to make might sound better if you use the word, competence instead of responsibility. Rank does not always equal competence! Some of the positions you are referring too require interpersonal skills and are heavy hitters when it comes down to which ranks are chosen to address some of those types of things such as EO/SHARP. I haven't done any formal research, however I can tell you that in theory the higher up in rank the more maturity and experienced you become. Therefore, I understand that you as well as others possess the ability and would probably make excellent candidates for these positions. It is unfortunate, however don't be too quick to denounce the system. Maintain a positive attitude and achieve your goals---sometimes you might even find yourself assisting in some capacity that will prepare you for your future roles/responsibility. Educate and prepare yourself, most of us [people] don't know as much as we think we do.

It is not wasteful, formal schooling requires resources and funding----if you make the Army a career then you will get your turn to shine in those areas that you feel you can contribute the most! Patience is a virtue----perhaps the toughest!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 1:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:43:49 -0400

Percentages, your describing yourself as a highly qualified SHARP rep, but, you'd be less than 1%. Also, military SHARP and civilian sector is completely different because of the command authority involved.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 15 at 2014 12:43 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 15 Mar 2014 12:43:53 -0400

May I be so bold as to suggest that what you really meant by this thread was “Are we ready to move away from the Rank equals ABILITY mind set?" Because in that case, I think we would all agree. It's been obvious that there is no correlation between rank and ability/competence/intelligence for a long time, and I think it's prevalent enough to be deemed self-evident...

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 20 at 2014 12:53 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Tue, 20 May 2014 00:53:02 -0400

SPC - be careful you do not confuse responsibility, authority and subject matter expertise. Responsibility cannot be delegated; authority can. In the Army, they are NOT the same thing.

When you become an NCO, you'll understand.

Now, on subject matter expertise - I think somebody blew the call there. However, some of these classes are mandatory for all - SHARP being one. Recognize it for what it is and carry on.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Dec 2 at 2015 3:58 PM

SPC Andrew Griffin — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 15:58:34 -0500

We should! Because I know E8's think have an E4 Mentality!